8 Reales Pillars, post ‘em if you got ‘em

SimonW

I have one from each mint except for Columbia or Chile. This Mexico has much more depth than you can tell from the pics, a really really nice coin for the grade.

Whatcha got? Seems like lots of people have a pillar 8 type coin

scubafuel

Hi Simon, as you said I just have one for type, but I like your idea of finding a nice one from each mint.

lermish

fluffy155

All of my pillars are from Mexico City and most of them are NGC, but here are some of my PCGS pieces:

Boosibri

I’m also working on a mint set of pillars. Have the Guatemala (and about the best that there is!), an exceptionally wholesome Chile, and a beautiful Peru.

I’ve had my chances in a Colombia, but I dislike the 1770’s for my set.

Bolivia is deceptively hard.

I haven’t wanted to tie up funds yet into a high grade Mexican until the absolute right piece shows up.

Boosibri

@SimonW said:
I have one from each mint except for Columbia. This Mexico has much more depth than you can tell from the pics, a really really nice coin for the grade.

Whatcha got? Seems like lots of people have a pillar 8 type coin

You have a Chile?

SimonW

@Boosibri said:

@SimonW said:
I have one from each mint except for Columbia. This Mexico has much more depth than you can tell from the pics, a really really nice coin for the grade.

Whatcha got? Seems like lots of people have a pillar 8 type coin

You have a Chile?

Only like four or five

SimonW

Some really incredible stuff here folks!

Plus00Vltra

My favorite mint/run is Guatemala from 1768-1771. The die cutting was gloriously crude, replete with inverted letters, errors, and stopgap measures to compensate for the wear and tear on hand-me-down equipment from Mexico:

Problems include:
The S in HISPAN has a "stop" superimposed; also recognized as "S over Ƨ" suggesting an error in hand carving, although I am not sure about this, nor is Yonaka.
The punch for the 1 in the date and and letter I was damaged and missing serifs by 1768 and the same continued into 1769.
The three letters G are all different, the one on the obverse being made of a C and horizontal bar that do not touch.
The 9 punch was damaged, and instead of inverting a 6 the die cutter inexplicably used an arc (from a C?) and a small o (from a smaller denomination?) to cobble together a makeshift 9, apparent as the two elements do not touch on this die.
The coining press was falling apart to the point that a normal sized flan would not produce an even strike (apparent in 1768 and a few large-flan 1769 coins), so in 1769 minters produced a narrower and thicker flan, resulting in a design that ran off the edges; on this coin the devices almost fit but run into the scalloping of the edge device at 12 o'clock on the obverse and 3 o'clock on the reverse, also suggesting slight misalignment of the dies.

This coin was my Rubicon. In the meantime looking for a large flan 1769...

bronzemat

Ferdinand VI (1747 - 1759)
Mexico AR 8 Reales
O: FERDND·VI·D·G·HISPAN·ET IND·REX M F 8, Crowned arms shield flanked by value and initials.
R: VTRAQUE VNUM; Mo 1756 MoCrowned hemispheres flanked by crowned pillars.
27g
39mm
KM#104.2

Ex. Harlan J Berk Buy or Bid Sale #212, July 2020

Boosibri

@Plus00Vltra said:
My favorite mint/run is Guatemala from 1768-1771. The die cutting was gloriously crude, replete with inverted letters, errors, and stopgap measures to compensate for the wear and tear on hand-me-down equipment from Mexico:

Problems include:
The S in HISPAN has a "stop" superimposed; also recognized as "S over Ƨ" suggesting an error in hand carving, although I am not sure about this, nor is Yonaka.
The punch for the 1 in the date and and letter I was damaged and missing serifs by 1768 and the same continued into 1769.
The three letters G are all different, the one on the obverse being made of a C and horizontal bar that do not touch.
The 9 punch was damaged, and instead of inverting a 6 the die cutter inexplicably used an arc (from a C?) and a small o (from a smaller denomination?) to cobble together a makeshift 9, apparent as the two elements do not touch on this die.
The coining press was falling apart to the point that a normal sized flan would not produce an even strike (apparent in 1768 and a few large-flan 1769 coins), so in 1769 minters produced a narrower and thicker flan, resulting in a design that ran off the edges; on this coin the devices almost fit but run into the scalloping of the edge device at 12 o'clock on the obverse and 3 o'clock on the reverse, also suggesting slight misalignment of the dies.

This coin was my Rubicon. In the meantime looking for a large flan 1769...

Nice coin and write up

Boosibri

Another from Guatemala. A rare date, ex Calbeto, Elizondo, Haberthauer and likely before all of these from the Skinner-Klee family collection.

Eddi

@SimonW said:

@Boosibri said:

@SimonW said:
I have one from each mint except for Columbia. This Mexico has much more depth than you can tell from the pics, a really really nice coin for the grade.

Whatcha got? Seems like lots of people have a pillar 8 type coin

You have a Chile?

Only like four or five

You have four or five Santiago Columnarios ? (!!!!)

Would LOVE to see them, (please?)

TheGoonies1985

@Eddi said:

@SimonW said:

@Boosibri said:

@SimonW said:
I have one from each mint except for Columbia. This Mexico has much more depth than you can tell from the pics, a really really nice coin for the grade.

Whatcha got? Seems like lots of people have a pillar 8 type coin

You have a Chile?

Only like four or five

You have four or five Santiago Columnarios ? (!!!!)

Would LOVE to see them, (please?)

He was just joking.

bidask

@Boosibri said:
I’m also working on a mint set of pillars. Have the Guatemala (and about the best that there is!), an exceptionally wholesome Chile, and a beautiful Peru.

I’ve had my chances in a Colombia, but I dislike the 1770’s for my set.

Bolivia is deceptively hard.

I haven’t wanted to tie up funds yet into a high grade Mexican until the absolute right piece shows up.

I have a PCGS 65 1774 Bolivia 8 reales ...common date hoard but not easy in true 65 .....this is the Millenia speciman,

Plus00Vltra

@fluffy155 said:
All of my pillars are from Mexico City and most of them are NGC, but here are some of my PCGS pieces:

Question for the assembled experts here: the letter P appears three times on the obverse of this fantastic 1738 Mo MF 8R. The last P in PHILIP is different from the other two, with scalloping on the lower end. Same story with the I and D punches in PHILIP and D∙G vs. IND.
Is this an artefact of the impression of the die punch into the die, or two different die punches for the letter "P?" I assume it is the former case, likely as scalloping of the die punch would allow for better excavation of die metal, making a stronger impression. Too light an impression of the die punch would produce the scalloping, heavy impression would leave a typical blocky letter. Letters "P" have the same shape otherwise, with a deformed lower loop, more so on the scalloped P.

Is this reasonable, or confirmed?

I have seen the same on 1754 G J 8R and English VIGO coinage, so I assume it is a typical problem associated with die making transcending mint and nation, rather than "fancy" versus "plain" lettering.

Plus00Vltra

@Boosibri said:
I’m also working on a mint set of pillars. Have the Guatemala (and about the best that there is!), an exceptionally wholesome Chile, and a beautiful Peru.

I’ve had my chances in a Colombia, but I dislike the 1770’s for my set.

Bolivia is deceptively hard.

I haven’t wanted to tie up funds yet into a high grade Mexican until the absolute right piece shows up.

Boosibri,
Aside from your world-beater 1765 GP 8R in P64+ and 1764 GP 8R in P63, I am aware of a 1760 GP in N62, 1766 8R in P61, Two Ex Stuart 1768 GP 8R in N62 and N61, and a 1768 GP 8R in N64.

Are there any other uncirculated Guatemalan 8R known to the hobby out there that you know of?

Plus00Vltra

@Plus00Vltra said:

@Boosibri said:
I’m also working on a mint set of pillars. Have the Guatemala (and about the best that there is!), an exceptionally wholesome Chile, and a beautiful Peru.

I’ve had my chances in a Colombia, but I dislike the 1770’s for my set.

Bolivia is deceptively hard.

I haven’t wanted to tie up funds yet into a high grade Mexican until the absolute right piece shows up.

Boosibri,
Aside from your world-beater 1765 GP 8R in P64+ and 1764 GP 8R in P63, I am aware of a 1760 GP in N62, 1766 8R in P61, Two Ex Stuart 1768 GP 8R in N62 and N61, and a 1768 GP 8R in N64.

Are there any other uncirculated Guatemalan 8R known to the hobby out there that you know of?

I could just check the PCGS and NGC condition census but that would be no fun, plus I am really wondering about the raw coins squirreled away in old European collections...

TwoKopeiki

@Plus00Vltra said:
Question for the assembled experts here: the letter P appears three times on the obverse of this fantastic 1738 Mo MF 8R. The last P in PHILIP is different from the other two, with scalloping on the lower end. Same story with the I and D punches in PHILIP and D∙G vs. IND.
Is this an artefact of the impression of the die punch into the die, or two different die punches for the letter "P?" I assume it is the former case, likely as scalloping of the die punch would allow for better excavation of die metal, making a stronger impression. Too light an impression of the die punch would produce the scalloping, heavy impression would leave a typical blocky letter. Letters "P" have the same shape otherwise, with a deformed lower loop, more so on the scalloped P.

Is this reasonable, or confirmed?

I have seen the same on 1754 G J 8R and English VIGO coinage, so I assume it is a typical problem associated with die making transcending mint and nation, rather than "fancy" versus "plain" lettering.

The scalloping you see at the base of some of the letters is a function of strike force and metal flow from the center outward toward the edges. Interestingly enough, Calbeto also cataloged these as a separate punch variety in his Compenidum. You can see it on top of the letters in the 1772 and 1773 dates where the assayer initials and mintmark were inverted to the rest of the legend, additionally supporting the metal flow assumption.

Plus00Vltra

@TwoKopeiki said:

@Plus00Vltra said:
Question for the assembled experts here: the letter P appears three times on the obverse of this fantastic 1738 Mo MF 8R. The last P in PHILIP is different from the other two, with scalloping on the lower end. Same story with the I and D punches in PHILIP and D∙G vs. IND.
Is this an artefact of the impression of the die punch into the die, or two different die punches for the letter "P?" I assume it is the former case, likely as scalloping of the die punch would allow for better excavation of die metal, making a stronger impression. Too light an impression of the die punch would produce the scalloping, heavy impression would leave a typical blocky letter. Letters "P" have the same shape otherwise, with a deformed lower loop, more so on the scalloped P.

Is this reasonable, or confirmed?

I have seen the same on 1754 G J 8R and English VIGO coinage, so I assume it is a typical problem associated with die making transcending mint and nation, rather than "fancy" versus "plain" lettering.

The scalloping you see at the base of some of the letters is a function of strike force and metal flow from the center outward toward the edges. Interestingly enough, Calbeto also cataloged these as a separate punch variety in his Compenidum. You can see it on top of the letters in the 1772 and 1773 dates where the assayer initials and mintmark were inverted to the rest of the legend, additionally supporting the metal flow assumption.

An ingenious test case. Thanks for the expertise, TwoKopeiki.

Boosibri

@Plus00Vltra said:

@Plus00Vltra said:

@Boosibri said:
I’m also working on a mint set of pillars. Have the Guatemala (and about the best that there is!), an exceptionally wholesome Chile, and a beautiful Peru.

I’ve had my chances in a Colombia, but I dislike the 1770’s for my set.

Bolivia is deceptively hard.

I haven’t wanted to tie up funds yet into a high grade Mexican until the absolute right piece shows up.

Boosibri,
Aside from your world-beater 1765 GP 8R in P64+ and 1764 GP 8R in P63, I am aware of a 1760 GP in N62, 1766 8R in P61, Two Ex Stuart 1768 GP 8R in N62 and N61, and a 1768 GP 8R in N64.

Are there any other uncirculated Guatemalan 8R known to the hobby out there that you know of?

I could just check the PCGS and NGC condition census but that would be no fun, plus I am really wondering about the raw coins squirreled away in old European collections...

There is another 1764 in 63, and I used to own a 1760 Ferdinand in 61 and a 1758 in 63. The Lissner coin was a 1762 in 65 which was dark and likely over graded. Still, the only 65 for the type.

SimonW

@TwoKopeiki said:

@Plus00Vltra said:
Question for the assembled experts here: the letter P appears three times on the obverse of this fantastic 1738 Mo MF 8R. The last P in PHILIP is different from the other two, with scalloping on the lower end. Same story with the I and D punches in PHILIP and D∙G vs. IND.
Is this an artefact of the impression of the die punch into the die, or two different die punches for the letter "P?" I assume it is the former case, likely as scalloping of the die punch would allow for better excavation of die metal, making a stronger impression. Too light an impression of the die punch would produce the scalloping, heavy impression would leave a typical blocky letter. Letters "P" have the same shape otherwise, with a deformed lower loop, more so on the scalloped P.

Is this reasonable, or confirmed?

I have seen the same on 1754 G J 8R and English VIGO coinage, so I assume it is a typical problem associated with die making transcending mint and nation, rather than "fancy" versus "plain" lettering.

The scalloping you see at the base of some of the letters is a function of strike force and metal flow from the center outward toward the edges. Interestingly enough, Calbeto also cataloged these as a separate punch variety in his Compenidum. You can see it on top of the letters in the 1772 and 1773 dates where the assayer initials and mintmark were inverted to the rest of the legend, additionally supporting the metal flow assumption.

I’ve always wondered this also, but kinda just assumed it was a type of die failure due to fatigue or a flow issue. Makes sense.

SimonW

Here’s my sole Guatemala 8, a gnarly example of a tough “small j” variety. Significantly more rare than the large J. The shield side is a leftover die from 1754. This one is N45

SimonW

I hope to add a nice Carlos version in the next years.

Boosibri

A few others

SimonW

@Boosibri Did you keep most of your 8 reales during the great Guatemalan sell-off of 2022-23?

Boosibri

@SimonW said:
@Boosibri Did you keep most of your 8 reales during the great Guatemalan sell-off of 2022-23?

I kept the 1764 and 1765. I was offered a price for the 1758 and 1760 which I couldnt refuse, thus breaking the set objective.

SimonW

@Boosibri said:

@SimonW said:
@Boosibri Did you keep most of your 8 reales during the great Guatemalan sell-off of 2022-23?

I kept the 1764 and 1765. I was offered a price for the 1758 and 1760 which I couldnt refuse, thus breaking the set objective.

Everything is for sale for the right price.

Your Guatemala 8’s was the stuff of legend. I used to sit up nights drooling over them (not really, but you get the point😂)

Crazy8s

Pillars were my favorite coins to collect for a long period of time. Most of mine are raw but some are certified. It can be an addictive study once you start.

SimonW

Nice!

SimonW

ChopmarkedTrades

While the topic is on Guatemala Pillars, I believe it was @Boosibri who pointed this one out to me:

And a couple other pieces with nice detail:

dfrosty301

Compared to the amazing coins that have been posted here my small collection of pillars from shipwrecks is nothing much. Sorry about the lighting I don't really have a good setup to take photos of coins just yet.

SimonW

@Plus00Vltra said:

@Boosibri said:
I’m also working on a mint set of pillars. Have the Guatemala (and about the best that there is!), an exceptionally wholesome Chile, and a beautiful Peru.

I’ve had my chances in a Colombia, but I dislike the 1770’s for my set.

Bolivia is deceptively hard.

I haven’t wanted to tie up funds yet into a high grade Mexican until the absolute right piece shows up.

Boosibri,
Aside from your world-beater 1765 GP 8R in P64+ and 1764 GP 8R in P63, I am aware of a 1760 GP in N62, 1766 8R in P61, Two Ex Stuart 1768 GP 8R in N62 and N61, and a 1768 GP 8R in N64.

Are there any other uncirculated Guatemalan 8R known to the hobby out there that you know of?

Don't you mean "aside from your 'two worlds' beater"?! 😂 I'll show myself out now...

Euclid

@dfrosty301 said:
Compared to the amazing coins that have been posted here my small collection of pillars from shipwrecks is nothing much. Sorry about the lighting I don't really have a good setup to take photos of coins just yet.

Sweet group! I love the cameo on the bottom two especially

SimonW

@dfrosty301 those are great! Nice pillars from shipwrecks are tough in my experience

golden

I just think that 8 Reales Pillars are so cool! Every collector should have one.

Tonedeaf

SimonW

As @Boosibri talked about, the Potosi 8 reales are strangely tough to find nice. There's plenty out there, but perhaps due to them being a four year type (therefore limited) and, possibly, they weren't preserved in high grade with any meaningful quality, they are hard to find nice.

I bought this one a few years ago as a filler until I can find a nice AU+. It's the easiest date and probably the easiest grade available. Decent for what it is, I think.

SimonW

My new Peru 8, a slight upgrade in number, but much more attractive and original than my previous.

Crazy8s

One of my pillars that happens to be encapsulated, I have a fondness for overdates.

SimonW

@Crazy8s nice! great variety! Clear overdates are fantastic!

cecropiamoth

Here is the one that I own --

Hope everyone is well!!!

Cheers/Jeff

Eddi

I don't think I have shared these two in this post yet:

Lima 8R 1772, dots above both mintmarks.
Santiago 8R 1764.

JohnnyCache

I only own one though, at some point in the distant future, I would like to find a nicer one for an upgrade.
 

SimonW

Oh man @Eddi !

WillieBoyd2

My pillar dollar:

Spain Mexico City 8 Reales 1748 Assayer: MF
Silver, 38.0 mm, 27.07 gm

MrEureka

I only have one in my collection. I like the bisecting die break, which I haven't seen on any others. And it's perfectly original.

SimonW

The latest Stacks sale, it was too reasonably priced not to get it.