Weird looking 1909-S Lincoln Cent

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Connecticoin
Connecticoin Posts: 13,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

The 1909-S Lincoln Cent in this ebay listing does not look right to me - the “s” appears misshapen, and even the date looks a little funny (the “1” appears short). Is this a die struck counterfeit, perhaps from China?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/326133246816?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=rxHxJqSWQlC&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=bxjklrq3tfe&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

*For Sale on Ebay*

Comments

  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,072 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • oih82w8
    oih82w8 Posts: 13,212 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    As-is, no refunds or exchanges... that is a deal breaker to me.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

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  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2024 7:11PM
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    Too late, someone bought it.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • Connecticoin
    Connecticoin Posts: 13,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2024 7:33PM
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    @OAKSTAR said:
    Too late, someone bought it.

    Holy crap, $206! The winning bidder sure thinks it is genuine.

    My intent was more educational and not necessarily reporting the auction. Just would like some insight on the likely origin of the counterfeit.

    *For Sale on Ebay*
  • OAKSTAR
    OAKSTAR Posts: 8,770 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Connecticoin said:

    @OAKSTAR said:
    Too late, someone bought it.

    Holy crap, $206! The winning bidder sure thinks it is genuine.

    My intent was more educational and not necessarily reporting the auction. Just would like some insight on the likely origin of the counterfeit.

    I know. You're singing my song. I'm not in a position to attribute it. I would have been coming here first for answers.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • AUandAG
    AUandAG Posts: 25,050 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I saw nothing wrong with it.

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,072 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Connecticoin said:

    @OAKSTAR said:
    Too late, someone bought it.

    Holy crap, $206! The winning bidder sure thinks it is genuine.

    My intent was more educational and not necessarily reporting the auction. Just would like some insight on the likely origin of the counterfeit.

    The US Mint.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • MWallace
    MWallace Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2024 6:13AM
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    Here's the coin in question.


  • Slade01
    Slade01 Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
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    Hard to say from that picture, but doesn't look bad, although I would have studied a better image before bidding. They used the same S mintmark on both the Lincoln and Indian in 1909. And the price is in the ballpark for an AU 1909-S Lincoln raw.

  • Slade01
    Slade01 Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
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    @oih82w8 said:
    As-is, no refunds or exchanges... that is a deal breaker to me.

    But if it is taken to a dealer and deemed counterfeit, the EBay guarantee would kick in and force a refund from seller.

  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,314 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Hard to tell whether counterfeit from image. Poor images with no return privilege gets no bid from me.

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • jesbroken
    jesbroken Posts: 11,253 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    All the no return does is prevent "I didn't like it" returns. I have returned coins for "not as pictured" and "different coin than pictured" to no return sellers and ebay refunded both. Photo inhand comparisons to ebay usually prevail.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • jfriedm56
    jfriedm56 Posts: 3,101 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    So while I’m the furthest thing from an expert, the S mint mark to me looks suspicious. If the 1909s is the same S punch used for the ‘09s VDB, then it is not genuine imo.

  • Connecticoin
    Connecticoin Posts: 13,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @jfriedm56 said:
    So while I’m the furthest thing from an expert, the S mint mark to me looks suspicious. If the 1909s is the same S punch used for the ‘09s VDB, then it is not genuine imo.

    That was my thought as well. The “S” looks mis-shapen and the date looks funny to me as well. Maybe some pixelation of the image makes it look that way.

    *For Sale on Ebay*
  • Slade01
    Slade01 Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
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    @mr1931S said:
    Hard to tell whether counterfeit from image. Poor images with no return privilege gets no bid from me.

    Well that and more important to me is that it's not at least a 65RD. ;)

  • Slade01
    Slade01 Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2024 11:19AM
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    @jfriedm56 said:
    So while I’m the furthest thing from an expert, the S mint mark to me looks suspicious. If the 1909s is the same S punch used for the ‘09s VDB, then it is not genuine imo.

    There was only a single S mint mark punch used from the 1909 Indian through to the 1916 Lincoln -- one punch used for them all. So it is pretty easy to make comparisons, although they got punched at different angles and in slightly different locations. The problem here is the lousy picture through the 2x2, which was probably intentional. Typical EBay poor quality image from a sketchy seller.

  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,314 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Slade01 said:

    @mr1931S said:
    Hard to tell whether counterfeit from image. Poor images with no return privilege gets no bid from me.

    Well that and more important to me is that it's not at least a 65RD. ;)

    None of my three 1909-S pennies are "65RD." One AU, one XF, one VF.

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • Slade01
    Slade01 Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
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    @mr1931S said:

    @Slade01 said:

    @mr1931S said:
    Hard to tell whether counterfeit from image. Poor images with no return privilege gets no bid from me.

    Well that and more important to me is that it's not at least a 65RD. ;)

    None of my three 1909-S pennies are "65RD." One AU, one XF, one VF.

    The first one that I ever had was a VG, found in searching change like my whole original set 60 years ago. Today, all of the Lincolns have been upgraded. While I have an 09-S 65RD, I really like nice toned chocolate browns better. They can be hard to find.

  • dcarr
    dcarr Posts: 10,266 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I don't think it is genuine.

    Moonlight Mint
  • Slade01
    Slade01 Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
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    @dcarr said:
    I don't think it is genuine.

    On a closeup analysis in Photoshop, the central curved portion is much thicker than any of my MS examples where that s punch was used and the top of the s is too damaged to compare, so I will have to agree with you.

    I tried to match it to 09-S, 09-SVDB, 1910-S, 11-s, 12-S, 13-S, 14-S and 15-S (couldn't find my Indian 09-S or my Lincoln 16-S pictures) and the font is not quite right or has been somehow flattened and widened out, particularly through the upper into the central curve. Also, the terminus of the bottom of the s is too large and rounded that makes the entire letter look too flat and wide to a equal size genuine example.

  • Connecticoin
    Connecticoin Posts: 13,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    If counterfeit (which I believe it is), do you think it is an added S or die-struck? Perhaps @CaptHenway can weigh in.

    *For Sale on Ebay*
  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,176 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Connecticoin said:
    If counterfeit (which I believe it is), do you think it is an added S or die-struck? Perhaps @CaptHenway can weigh in.

    I could not prove anything from those pictures, but my gut feeling is no good.

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • Elcontador
    Elcontador Posts: 7,743 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    If memory is correct, the 's' is more boxy than what appears on that coin.

    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • jfriedm56
    jfriedm56 Posts: 3,101 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    So here’s a 1909-S Indian cent for comparison. This one is PCGS graded 65RB CAC and the one in question-raw. Are the S punches all the same for all Indians and Lincoln’s?

  • Slade01
    Slade01 Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
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    Yes, there was a single S mint mark punch for 1909-S Indian through and including the 1916-S Lincoln according to NGC.

    source: https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5217/Counterfeit-1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cents/

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