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Weird looking 1909-S Lincoln Cent
Connecticoin
Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭✭
The 1909-S Lincoln Cent in this ebay listing does not look right to me - the “s” appears misshapen, and even the date looks a little funny (the “1” appears short). Is this a die struck counterfeit, perhaps from China?
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As-is, no refunds or exchanges... that is a deal breaker to me.
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Too late, someone bought it.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Holy crap, $206! The winning bidder sure thinks it is genuine.
My intent was more educational and not necessarily reporting the auction. Just would like some insight on the likely origin of the counterfeit.
I know. You're singing my song. I'm not in a position to attribute it. I would have been coming here first for answers.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I saw nothing wrong with it.
bob
The US Mint.
Here's the coin in question.
Hard to say from that picture, but doesn't look bad, although I would have studied a better image before bidding. They used the same S mintmark on both the Lincoln and Indian in 1909. And the price is in the ballpark for an AU 1909-S Lincoln raw.
But if it is taken to a dealer and deemed counterfeit, the EBay guarantee would kick in and force a refund from seller.
Hard to tell whether counterfeit from image. Poor images with no return privilege gets no bid from me.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
All the no return does is prevent "I didn't like it" returns. I have returned coins for "not as pictured" and "different coin than pictured" to no return sellers and ebay refunded both. Photo inhand comparisons to ebay usually prevail.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
So while I’m the furthest thing from an expert, the S mint mark to me looks suspicious. If the 1909s is the same S punch used for the ‘09s VDB, then it is not genuine imo.
That was my thought as well. The “S” looks mis-shapen and the date looks funny to me as well. Maybe some pixelation of the image makes it look that way.
Well that and more important to me is that it's not at least a 65RD.
There was only a single S mint mark punch used from the 1909 Indian through to the 1916 Lincoln -- one punch used for them all. So it is pretty easy to make comparisons, although they got punched at different angles and in slightly different locations. The problem here is the lousy picture through the 2x2, which was probably intentional. Typical EBay poor quality image from a sketchy seller.
None of my three 1909-S pennies are "65RD." One AU, one XF, one VF.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The first one that I ever had was a VG, found in searching change like my whole original set 60 years ago. Today, all of the Lincolns have been upgraded. While I have an 09-S 65RD, I really like nice toned chocolate browns better. They can be hard to find.
I don't think it is genuine.
On a closeup analysis in Photoshop, the central curved portion is much thicker than any of my MS examples where that s punch was used and the top of the s is too damaged to compare, so I will have to agree with you.
I tried to match it to 09-S, 09-SVDB, 1910-S, 11-s, 12-S, 13-S, 14-S and 15-S (couldn't find my Indian 09-S or my Lincoln 16-S pictures) and the font is not quite right or has been somehow flattened and widened out, particularly through the upper into the central curve. Also, the terminus of the bottom of the s is too large and rounded that makes the entire letter look too flat and wide to a equal size genuine example.
If counterfeit (which I believe it is), do you think it is an added S or die-struck? Perhaps @CaptHenway can weigh in.
I could not prove anything from those pictures, but my gut feeling is no good.
If memory is correct, the 's' is more boxy than what appears on that coin.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
So here’s a 1909-S Indian cent for comparison. This one is PCGS graded 65RB CAC and the one in question-raw. Are the S punches all the same for all Indians and Lincoln’s?
Yes, there was a single S mint mark punch for 1909-S Indian through and including the 1916-S Lincoln according to NGC.
source: https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5217/Counterfeit-1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cents/