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Started looking at W.L. Halves lately and saw this MS64 CAC approved 1921 in a GC auction.
Goldbully
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Goldbully
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Goldbully
Posts: 16,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
Goldbully
Posts: 16,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
Goldbully
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Comments
Certainly you know that coin grades are independent data points and that not all coins from the same issue and same grade will have the same eye appeal or other characteristics.
In my opinion, PCGS and CAC might have liked the luster under the toning, eye appeal (completely subjective!), originality and relatively mark-free fields of the top coin just as much as they like the brighter coin with what might be mottled dip residue from the bottom coin.
As an aside, the top coin is the rare "One-Blue-Foot-Eagle" variety.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
As PCGS has certified 124 of them in MS64 grade, I would imagine they know what they are doing, but in all honesty, the 2nd coin would be my selection of the two and would not bid on the 1st.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
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Two words- Original skin
Second coin lacks original skin and while it is well struck, it is a coin I would not want.
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It’s graded based on its originality and surface preservation. I think it has poor eye appeal and the strike is on the low end of the spectrum for that issue. Certainly not a coin that I would like to have in my collection, but I understand the ‘WHY’ of the CAC sticker.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
For starters, they are photographs of coins, not coins.
Maybe @PhilArnold could weigh in.
I assume he is the photographer for both images.
This is a wonderful example of two very different coins in the same grade where reasonable people will be drawn to one or the other. In spite of the originality, I find the toning on the first coin neutral at best, and the weak strike bothers me. I'm Ok with the post-dip look of the second coin -- to me it retains a lot of character -- and I like the strong strike.
(PS -- I have an MS67 Texas 50c with toning similar to that as WL coin # 1, and I've been trying to decide for 20 years whether I like it or not! )
Pre CAC pics from Heritage.
You're focusing on one aspect of the grading.. And in 64, possibly the least important aspect of the grade.
There are times when the CAC thing becomes overrated. Collectors should buy the coins that please them. The sticker is nice from a marketing perspective, but it’s not the be all and end all for me.
I recently sold my MS62 w/cac to a dealer.
It’s not a coin I’d be super excited to buy. The toning is a negative. My first thought was perhaps it was netgraded, but I struggle to see this coin as a gem without the toning. The toning should have knocked off a full point IMHO.
It’s a fugly looking coin. I’d be ashamed to show it to anyone much less bid or buy it.
Look at how weak the strike is vs the one I sold.
First off, love Walkers. But as eye appeal is always my first consideration, this example is a non starter. The 64 grade + bean surprises me, but only a little. The worst, though? The strike is very weak. Normally, the 1921 strikes are pretty good. I “need” one of these, but this won’t be the one.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
I like the CAC coin with the toning.
I also like the CAC coin
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
Speaking of 1921 WLH, here’s my other one:
Wanna GTG?
I guess MS65
Will it CMQ?
Nice. Do you know why it is a MS62?
The grader went on a beer break first stumbled & then gave it its grade??
Nope, I bought from a major dealer online. I loved it so I bought it.
That weak 1940-S style strike makes it a no go for me, most 1921's I've seen have a decent strike. I'm guessing that this was coin # 246,000 out of the 246,000 that were minted. That die was begging to be put out of its misery. And that toning only confirms it's original, not beautiful.
This is one case where the grade and sticker still add up to zero - for me.
10-4,
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This is an example of where it gets confusing in regard to CAC stickers. Stickers are not awarded on the basis of eye appeal and strike. The collector need to evaluate those two factors.
I do wonder if this coin would not pass if it were submitted to CMQ. Or would it because it is original? And the luster may be better than it appears to be in the picture.
Someone surely liked her..................................Hammer: $9,843.74 with juice....look at all those page views!!! 🤔
GC Link
The 1921 referenced above in today’s GC auction went for a shade under $9900 w/BP.
CAC pg: $12950.
PCGS pg: $13000.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
So, It sold for about $3000 less than it should have.
I wouldn’t consider $9900 a strong price for that coin in that grade and with a green sticker.
I’d say that the price reflected the negative eye appeal and poor strike.
It sold for about what it should have with all things considered. JMHO.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
@Walkerfan: I agree with you. Plus, we can’t forget what a tough date the 1921 is. It’s a date I’m targeting, but this coin wasn’t the one.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Yes, thank you. This date/mint is usually very well struck up. Have patience and a better one will come along. Good Luck!
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Calling Coinguy1 aka Mark Feld, please chime in.
Surprising that the CAC Price Guide of $12,950 is $50 less than PCGS'. And Price Guides could be high. Last four CAC sales on PCGS' website makes this sale price look not so bad.
PCGS # DATE PRICE GRADE SVC. FIRM SALE
6583 Jun-2021 $10,200 MS64 PCGS Stack's Bowers June 2021 U.S. Coins Auction Auction 2133
6583 Nov-2020 $16,800 MS64 NGC Stack's Bowers November 2020 U.S. Coins Auction Auction 6258
6583 Sep-2018 $8,225 MS64 PCGS Legend Rare Coin Auctions The Regency Auction 28 Auction 123
6583 Jul-2013 $8,813 MS64 PCGS Stack's Bowers The August 2013 Chicago ANA World's Fair of Money
Hard to evaluate this 1921 walker only from a photo. It might look much nicer in person. All we know is this walker is not photogenic due to strange toning but only to the camera. In person it might look very different?
I’m in the minority clearly, but besides the strike I love the look. Reminds me of a Peace $ in my set that I’m quite fond of.
Glad there is appreciation for all sorts of looks out there.
Interesting comments from all. I can understand the low appeal for some (me included), but also understand others may like the “natural” look. I think the Great Photo shows the coin well. From that, it appears the 64 grade is at least fair. CAC sticker certainly doesn’t hurt, but has little meaning for some. Granted. I think all acknowledge the 1921 is a VERY TOUGH date. The major problem with this coin is the strike. There’s no getting around that. Despite the “”tough date” this coin certainly is, it is almost always well struck; at worst, pretty good. This example isn’t even close to that. A poster above stated this was probably #246000 out of 246000 struck. Humorous, but maybe not far from it. I’m putting together a set of early Walkers (1916-1921) & need this date. Not surprisingly due to my comments, I didn’t even consider bidding on this one.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Are you doing a MS set? How far along have you progressed? I would be glad to offer any help or advice if you need it.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Like others have opined, I like the overall appearance of the coin but a strike that weak on an issue not know for weak strikes is a dealbreaker for me. The price is commensurate with the majority opinion.
I have no qualms with the grade or the sticker, as we know strike shouldn’t be much of a limiting factor at 64 and technically the coin is solid for the grade. We also know that John places higher emphasis on originality than some others do.
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Op coin 1921 WLH - Have problems with the toning and strike - low end imo. How did it get so much dark crud?
@Walkerfan: yes, mostly. I think the 21-D & S are exceptions. Had a shot at a pretty fair 19-D in last week’s SB auction but went for the 19-S instead. Sometimes, I second guess myself after the auction & this was one. Not the best strategy that day - I didn’t win either.
Here’s what I have: 16-D, 16-S, 17-D rev, 17-S obv & rev & 1919. There’s a few 16’s coming up + the 17-D obv shouldn’t be too tough. I think the 20’s can be difficult but not like the 21’s. The 18’s are only a little more available.
Thanks for the offer; any good suggestions are welcome!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
@rnkmyer1 Sounds like you're off to a great start. The 1916-S and 1917 S obv are both VERY challenging. Well chosen AUs look great with MS coins in a set. If you have any specific questions feel free to send me a DM.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
This must be all about the coin’s originality, because - to my eye - nothing else about the coin (particularly the strike) is appealing… I would have enjoyed seeing it posted in a GTG thread…
It likely would have FOOLED a lot of folks.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Reviving this thread as it had a lot of good commentary that we can all learn from. Plus, I have what I think is an important PS & maybe a valuable lesson for “newbies”. I just won this coin in auction @ $8400 hammer:
The grade is PCGS MS63. IMO, I don’t think anyone would question it in a 64 holder. It’s even nicer in hand than the pics above show.
This is a more “typical” 1921 than the 64 we all discussed in the GC auction:
Bottom line is I passed on the GC 64 coin & didn’t wait long for the right coin (& @ a price point $1500 below the 64). The “newbie” lesson? Somewhat cliche but “buy the coin not the holder”.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
That’s a very nice 63 for a difficult date. Oreville might have the nicest one in existence (ex Jack Lee).
To hazard a guess, yours might be grade limited to 63 by luster.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Yours is very nice. Great strike. Though muted, I've still seen 64 coins that aren't much more lustrous. I'm guessing that the 4 vertical hairlines in the right facing obverse field held it back.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/