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Started looking at W.L. Halves lately and saw this MS64 CAC approved 1921 in a GC auction.

GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 17,232 ✭✭✭✭✭

Can someone explain how the mottled toned 1921 is graded a 64?




GC Link


Here is a 1921 MS64 no CAC approval from CoinFacts which appears to have a bolder strike and detail.

What am I missing?

Thank you.



PCGS Link

Comments

  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For starters, they are photographs of coins, not coins.

  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 17,232 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oldabeintx said:
    For starters, they are photographs of coins, not coins.


    Maybe @PhilArnold could weigh in.

    I assume he is the photographer for both images.

  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is a wonderful example of two very different coins in the same grade where reasonable people will be drawn to one or the other. In spite of the originality, I find the toning on the first coin neutral at best, and the weak strike bothers me. I'm Ok with the post-dip look of the second coin -- to me it retains a lot of character -- and I like the strong strike.

    (PS -- I have an MS67 Texas 50c with toning similar to that as WL coin # 1, and I've been trying to decide for 20 years whether I like it or not! )

    Higashiyama
  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 17,232 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pre CAC pics from Heritage.



  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s not a coin I’d be super excited to buy. The toning is a negative. My first thought was perhaps it was netgraded, but I struggle to see this coin as a gem without the toning. The toning should have knocked off a full point IMHO.

  • mikee999mikee999 Posts: 619 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2024 8:32AM

    It’s a fugly looking coin. I’d be ashamed to show it to anyone much less bid or buy it.

    Look at how weak the strike is vs the one I sold.

  • CopperindianCopperindian Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭✭✭

    First off, love Walkers. But as eye appeal is always my first consideration, this example is a non starter. The 64 grade + bean surprises me, but only a little. The worst, though? The strike is very weak. Normally, the 1921 strikes are pretty good. I “need” one of these, but this won’t be the one.

    “The thrill of the hunt never gets old”

    PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
    Copperindian

    Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
    Copperindian

  • cheezhedcheezhed Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like the CAC coin with the toning.

    Many happy BST transactions
  • Davidk7Davidk7 Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭

    I also like the CAC coin :o

    Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram

  • mikee999mikee999 Posts: 619 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2024 10:56AM

    Speaking of 1921 WLH, here’s my other one:


    Wanna GTG?

  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 17,232 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I guess MS65

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mikee999 said:
    I recently sold my MS62 w/cac to a dealer.

    Nice. Do you know why it is a MS62?

  • mikee999mikee999 Posts: 619 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2024 11:16AM

    @DisneyFan said:

    @Goldbully said:
    Can someone explain how the mottled toned 1921 is graded a 64?




    Will it CMQ?

    The grader went on a beer break first stumbled & then gave it its grade??

  • mikee999mikee999 Posts: 619 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan said:

    @mikee999 said:
    I recently sold my MS62 w/cac to a dealer.

    Nice. Do you know why it is a MS62?

    Nope, I bought from a major dealer online. I loved it so I bought it.

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ElmerFusterpuck said:
    That weak 1940-S style strike makes it a no go for me, most 1921's I've seen have a decent strike. I'm guessing that this was coin # 246,000 out of the 246,000 that were minted. That die was begging to be put out of its misery. And that toning only confirms its original, not beautiful.

    This is an example of where it gets confusing in regard to CAC stickers. Stickers are not awarded on the basis of eye appeal and strike. The collector need to evaluate those two factors.

    I do wonder if this coin would not pass if it were submitted to CMQ. Or would it because it is original? And the luster may be better than it appears to be in the picture.

  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 17,232 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Someone surely liked her..................................Hammer: $9,843.74 with juice....look at all those page views!!! 🤔



    GC Link

  • CopperindianCopperindian Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 1921 referenced above in today’s GC auction went for a shade under $9900 w/BP.
    CAC pg: $12950.
    PCGS pg: $13000.

    “The thrill of the hunt never gets old”

    PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
    Copperindian

    Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
    Copperindian

  • CopperindianCopperindian Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerfan: I agree with you. Plus, we can’t forget what a tough date the 1921 is. It’s a date I’m targeting, but this coin wasn’t the one.

    “The thrill of the hunt never gets old”

    PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
    Copperindian

    Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
    Copperindian

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rnkmyer1 said:
    @Walkerfan: I agree with you. Plus, we can’t forget what a tough date the 1921 is. It’s a date I’m targeting, but this coin wasn’t the one.

    Yes, thank you. This date/mint is usually very well struck up. Have patience and a better one will come along. Good Luck!

    Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • mikee999mikee999 Posts: 619 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Goldbully said:
    Can someone explain how the mottled toned 1921 is graded a 64?



    Here is a 1921 MS64 no CAC approval from CoinFacts which appears to have a bolder strike and detail.

    What am I missing?

    Thank you.


    You're focusing on one aspect of the grading.. And in 64, possibly the last important aspect of the grade.

    Calling Coinguy1 aka Mark Feld, please chime in.

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Surprising that the CAC Price Guide of $12,950 is $50 less than PCGS'. And Price Guides could be high. Last four CAC sales on PCGS' website makes this sale price look not so bad.
    PCGS # DATE PRICE GRADE SVC. FIRM SALE
    6583 Jun-2021 $10,200 MS64 PCGS Stack's Bowers June 2021 U.S. Coins Auction Auction 2133
    6583 Nov-2020 $16,800 MS64 NGC Stack's Bowers November 2020 U.S. Coins Auction Auction 6258
    6583 Sep-2018 $8,225 MS64 PCGS Legend Rare Coin Auctions The Regency Auction 28 Auction 123
    6583 Jul-2013 $8,813 MS64 PCGS Stack's Bowers The August 2013 Chicago ANA World's Fair of Money

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,950 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hard to evaluate this 1921 walker only from a photo. It might look much nicer in person. All we know is this walker is not photogenic due to strange toning but only to the camera. In person it might look very different?

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • CopperindianCopperindian Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting comments from all. I can understand the low appeal for some (me included), but also understand others may like the “natural” look. I think the Great Photo shows the coin well. From that, it appears the 64 grade is at least fair. CAC sticker certainly doesn’t hurt, but has little meaning for some. Granted. I think all acknowledge the 1921 is a VERY TOUGH date. The major problem with this coin is the strike. There’s no getting around that. Despite the “”tough date” this coin certainly is, it is almost always well struck; at worst, pretty good. This example isn’t even close to that. A poster above stated this was probably #246000 out of 246000 struck. Humorous, but maybe not far from it. I’m putting together a set of early Walkers (1916-1921) & need this date. Not surprisingly due to my comments, I didn’t even consider bidding on this one.

    “The thrill of the hunt never gets old”

    PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
    Copperindian

    Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
    Copperindian

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rnkmyer1 said:
    Interesting comments from all. I can understand the low appeal for some (me included), but also understand others may like the “natural” look. I think the Great Photo shows the coin well. From that, it appears the 64 grade is at least fair. CAC sticker certainly doesn’t hurt, but has little meaning for some. Granted. I think all acknowledge the 1921 is a VERY TOUGH date. The major problem with this coin is the strike. There’s no getting around that. Despite the “”tough date” this coin certainly is, it is almost always well struck; at worst, pretty good. This example isn’t even close to that. A poster above stated this was probably #246000 out of 246000 struck. Humorous, but maybe not far from it. I’m putting together a set of early Walkers (1916-1921) & need this date. Not surprisingly due to my comments, I didn’t even consider bidding on this one.

    Are you doing a MS set? How far along have you progressed? I would be glad to offer any help or advice if you need it.

    Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Like others have opined, I like the overall appearance of the coin but a strike that weak on an issue not know for weak strikes is a dealbreaker for me. The price is commensurate with the majority opinion.

    I have no qualms with the grade or the sticker, as we know strike shouldn’t be much of a limiting factor at 64 and technically the coin is solid for the grade. We also know that John places higher emphasis on originality than some others do.

    Founder- Peak Rarities
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  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 8,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2024 9:48AM

    Op coin 1921 WLH - Have problems with the toning and strike - low end imo. How did it get so much dark crud?

    Coins & Currency
  • CopperindianCopperindian Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerfan: yes, mostly. I think the 21-D & S are exceptions. Had a shot at a pretty fair 19-D in last week’s SB auction but went for the 19-S instead. Sometimes, I second guess myself after the auction & this was one. Not the best strategy that day - I didn’t win either.
    Here’s what I have: 16-D, 16-S, 17-D rev, 17-S obv & rev & 1919. There’s a few 16’s coming up + the 17-D obv shouldn’t be too tough. I think the 20’s can be difficult but not like the 21’s. The 18’s are only a little more available.
    Thanks for the offer; any good suggestions are welcome!

    “The thrill of the hunt never gets old”

    PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
    Copperindian

    Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
    Copperindian

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rnkmyer1 Sounds like you're off to a great start. The 1916-S and 1917 S obv are both VERY challenging. Well chosen AUs look great with MS coins in a set. If you have any specific questions feel free to send me a DM.

    Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • PumpkinheadPumpkinhead Posts: 47 ✭✭✭

    This must be all about the coin’s originality, because - to my eye - nothing else about the coin (particularly the strike) is appealing… I would have enjoyed seeing it posted in a GTG thread…

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Pumpkinhead said:
    This must be all about the coin’s originality, because - to my eye - nothing else about the coin (particularly the strike) is appealing… I would have enjoyed seeing it posted in a GTG thread…

    It likely would have FOOLED a lot of folks.

    Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • CopperindianCopperindian Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Reviving this thread as it had a lot of good commentary that we can all learn from. Plus, I have what I think is an important PS & maybe a valuable lesson for “newbies”. I just won this coin in auction @ $8400 hammer:

    The grade is PCGS MS63. IMO, I don’t think anyone would question it in a 64 holder. It’s even nicer in hand than the pics above show.
    This is a more “typical” 1921 than the 64 we all discussed in the GC auction:

    • full head detail;
    • strong branch hand thumb with a complete stem split;
    • nearly fully formed trailing leg on the eagle;
    • nominal marks, especially for the 63 grade;
    • typical skirt detail.

    Bottom line is I passed on the GC 64 coin & didn’t wait long for the right coin (& @ a price point $1500 below the 64). The “newbie” lesson? Somewhat cliche but “buy the coin not the holder”.

    “The thrill of the hunt never gets old”

    PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
    Copperindian

    Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
    Copperindian

  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That’s a very nice 63 for a difficult date. Oreville might have the nicest one in existence (ex Jack Lee).
    To hazard a guess, yours might be grade limited to 63 by luster.

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2024 8:12AM

    Yours is very nice. Great strike. Though muted, I've still seen 64 coins that aren't much more lustrous. I'm guessing that the 4 vertical hairlines in the right facing obverse field held it back.

    Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

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