What brand of safe for coin storage?
VTchaser
Posts: 293 ✭✭✭
I'm starting to acquire enough coinage, PM's, currency that I feel a safe is needed. I don't have a huge collection, but would probably need at least 3'x3'x3' of safe storage. Maybe smaller.
I'm starting to have more people coming into the house. House cleaners, repair men, etc. and I don't feel comfortable with stuff sitting out. I'd rather not use a safety deposit box at the bank as when I get bored i like to look at what I have and show my son my new purchases.
Is there a certain type/brand that people like? I see a lot of gun safe's at Costco, but not a lot of complete empty ones. Fire rating would be a must.
Also - Do you guys typically have a valuables policy under your homeowner's insurance that cover your estimated replacement cost for your collection? I have my rings insured but haven't included the coins.
Thanks!
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And i searched, but didn't find anything relevant from the last 10+ years.
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A good hiding spot is probably safer than most inexpensive safes.
The gun safes you see offer minimal protection against only casual thieves.
It’s also a bad idea to leave anything coin related laying around for workers to see and figure out they or their friends can return later.
Most larger cities have places that specialize in safes and locks and keys. Check one out in person. I recommend one twice the size you think you need and at least a 1/4" steel door. Do check out what's available in person.
bob
at some point it's more cost-effective to just take the plunge and excavate a basement or subbasement and build a multipurpose coin themed man-room/thermonuclear proof vault, you're going to sleep better
Be careful with fireproof safes. Many use a layer of moisture laden concrete in the outer housing that makes the inside have high humidity. They are fireproof because a fire will cause a moisture dumping into the interior from the heat and the moisture inside prevents the contents from burning. Here’s a picture of a coin that a friend gave me to play around with after all his coins in his fireproof safe started corroding from the high humidity inside. I played around with it by soaking it in phosphoric acid dissolved in water. It made the spots turn from brown black to whiteish grey. But the point is to stick with a gun safe designed to keep the guns metal from corrosion instead of a fireproof safe and use desiccant canisters inside. If you insist on a fireproof safe, then put the coins in some kind of Tupperware with desiccant inside before putting the Tupperware inside the fireproof safe. Here’s the coin pictures
Mr_Spud
Good info on the fire resistance. Thanks.
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I have posted this previously . . .
Most larger cities have an outlet for used ATM safes. Very little known, but for the collector-suburban-home situation, they are unbeatable. Outfits will recondition them (basically taking out all peripherals except the safe itself and combo locking system). They are large enough, extremely heavy (mine was delivered on a flatbed semi-trailer -- using a solid-steel roller system that made me think of the Egyptians)), need to be installed on a first floor or garage with concrete, and are usually TL-15 but you can get TL-30 in some cases.
I have had mine for 20+ years. No problems at all.
Of course, discretion as a collector is still paramount. Despite it being for all intents and purposes impregnable . . . all a determined thief has to do is hold a gun to your head or threaten a family member, and you won't be able to dial the combo fast enough . . .
Research reconditioned ATM safes. If banks can leave $50,000 in cash in a box on a corner . . . it should be safe (get the pun?) enough for you.
Have fun . . . .
Drunner
Usually most key companies(the ones that come to unlock your car doors and such) have inventories of safes and fairly knowledgeable as to their issues. At least, I have found so here in southern WV.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Hear your concern with folks in house. I'd make sure the safe can be secured to floor (closet a good spot to not noticeably ruin floor) or weigh > 100 lbs. Safes are very inviting to a thief and offer nothing if can removed.
There’s a recent thread discussing insurance. The insurance thru ANA should be less costly than adding coins to your homeowners policy. Hugh Wood is the agent. I’ve been through three safes, each one larger than the last. I like to display my slabs in nice cases, which take up a lot of room. I live in a metro area where we have at least one good speciality store. Add a good security system, some common sense, and voila, you can enjoy messing with your coins.
I would recommend a safe with an empty weight over 500 lbs. 100 lbs is nothing to move. (Thiefs got a 150 lb safe out of my house from a second story through narrow hallways without even a scratch on any walls.)
Secure it to a concrete floor with bolts. Bolting it to a wall or into wood studs in the floor is surprisingly easy to break loose with a good crowbar and saws-all.
Most importantly, buy good insurance. Insurance is vastly more important than a good safe.
I found this article very informative (Note: it is 4 pages - page 1 & 2 better). While the article was tilted toward gun safe safety (or Not) it goes into much more.
I did not review it all again at this time and don't recall if it mentions the lock but if not, then get one with a UL approved lock. They won't 'pop' open (at least not easily) are can be essentially the same as ones used on more expensive safes.
One would need to decide what level of protection is desired but UL15/30 type safes (or better class) are very heavy (and cost). It mentions build type safes which might suffice and some are reasonably good and no smash and grabber will get into them (but do you want to protect against a professional with power tools or other). Also smaller safes are easier to hide or disguise. Generally you don't want anyone coming into the home to know you have one and the longer it takes to find the safe the better. There is a link to something like this in the article. Yes, get one that bolts down.
Sometimes people will say something like all it takes is this or that power tool and you are in. The article addresses this with what the UL testers do and the information they have and the time is the actual attack time not including stop time or planning / re-planning. There are some videos on this also (and the easier gun safes).
Some of the links don't go to the correct (UL) page. Some statistical information might be outdated but the general safe information still applies.
https://gunsafereviewsguy.com/articles/myths-about-gun-safe-theft-protection/
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
3' x 3' x 3' is a cubic yard. Would take more than 10 SDBs at the bank to equal that volume. Maybe a free non working freezer in your garage until you decide.
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AMSEC or Liberty is what I look for.
Buy 2x as large as you think you need.
Fair warning, sometimes the safes themselves multiply.
Look for a used one, more bang for the buck... find someone who is moving and doesn't want to take it with them.
Another thing is Layers of security.
Deadbolt locks, Camera system, ect...
A rating of at least TL-15 has always been a minimum foe me.
This is absolutely true. I had some coins in a fireproof safe, when I checked in on them, the outside packaging was beginning to mold from moisture trapped inside the safe...which appeared to be dry. I lost the packaging but the coins were removed okay. Your collection needs to be stored safely from light & moisture and safely from "more people coming into the house" Perhaps in your home, out of sight, in some kind of dry storage, temp controlled room...
Lots of good advice here!
Depending on value, you need at TL-15 or TL-30 rates safe. Everything else is considered a Residential Security Container (RSC) which despite how it looks is fair game for hand tools and a little bit of elbow grease. Since almost all safes are fire rated with moisture content inherent, they do have humidity problems and there exists a whole ecosystem of in-safe dehumidifiers to attempt to deal with this.
I have used a gun safe for years ... this is key for me.
I’d be more concerned about having adequate insurance than the complexity of the safe (excepting moisture issues as raised). Use Hugh Woods insurance. Much cheaper than via homeowners policy addendum.
I located one of these for a friend who was looking for something... I think it weighed 1200lbs.
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It's old, not sure how it would hold up in a fire, but nobody is walking away with it.
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Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
I use a large gun safe. It is discretely hidden in a part of the house that would probably be the last part of a home a thief would check and also a part of the house probably most protected from a fire.
Personally, I think the best spot would be to get a contractor to knock out a big hole in the garage and put in a floor safe and disguise it well. Then kill the contractor so that there are no loose lips.
My favorite safe is the one at my local bank.
@VTchaser Just to clarify, money safes are rated for failure from a tool attack. A TL-15 means it should take 15 minutes to breach with tools. I don't know what the highest TL rating is but I think it's more important that the safe be physically immobilized and hidden. IMO. Good luck. Peace Roy
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I researched this quite a bit. True safes are not so common, and generally very expensive. Look up Graffunder brands, or as Tom said, ATM boxes or old bank safes. Most “safes” sold in gun shops and such are more correctly termed “residential storage containers”. They’ll protect you from random meth-heads looking for stuff to pawn, but they offer little resistance to a determined attack. A cheap Harbor Freight cutting wheel will penetrate them in seconds.
I settled on a larger than average (over 1000 pound), upper end RSC. Upper end means much greater steel thickness. Securing it to the floor with concrete anchor bolts and building framing and masonry around three sides and the top leaves only the door exposed. The steel thickness in the door is generally much thicker, and pry bars are much more difficult to use if you can’t tip it over and move it around.
After all that, I decided I was much more comfortable keeping the nice stuff in an SDB. Less fun, and less convenient, but enormously more secure.
An overview of the UL burglary ratings.
Edited to Add: If you are interested, you can find the specs for the ISM Super Diamond (TXTL-60x6) at https://www.ismsafe.com/ism-super-daimond
A gun to your head will open any safe pretty quickly.
I have witnessed fire departments open your standard 3-400lb gun safe. It took over an hour and they used jaws of life and a big fire/rescue saw.
You’ll be ok with one of those for the most part unless it is a very targeted and planned burglary.
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
I have a Canon 54 gun safe. 690 lbs empty. With my collection inside, probably close to 2000 lbs. 45 minute fire rating. As the local fire chief, should the inevitable happen, I guarantee there'll be a firehose trained on it. As for additional measures, a nibshit neighbor who watches everything. 5 security camera set-up and several firearms including a .45 inside the safe door. Let em try.
It should be completely hidden and never spoken about.
If it comes to this, you're not going to be alive even if you open the safe. Always keep a snub nose .357 in your safe for one last chance to live.
I would have it bolted to the ground. And for more rare and expensive coins I would for sure get a safety deposit box at a bank. I think anything valued at over certain amount should be in a bank. To each their amount they chose.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
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Buy a top of the line Liberty Safe and bolt it into concrete. Get bigger than you think you need so you only buy once/cry once.
I would make sure you also have an alarm system and security lights around your property. And if you can afford it cameras at certain key places like the front door.
Again do not keep your best stuff at home that is just common sens. A safety deposit box is not even 100$ per year in most cases. Do not bring them home to look at take pictures and enjoy that.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
I truly hope your home burning is not inevitable. What is the equivalent of insider trading for a fire chief? (EDIT: I suppose it's arson but that seems a lot more serious than I intended for a joke)
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
I have thought about this scenario and offer the following: If I am surprised by a gun toting nutcase, what would I do? I surely don't want to open the main safe - assuming nobody knows about it. But you have to offer something or it will get ugly in a hurry. So, I have a stash of relatively inexpensive coins in a locked file drawer. A mixture of new bright and shiny coins, and older issues with some foreign. Also an envelope with $500 in cash. I still may be in trouble, but at least I have a chance with the crook leaving with the stash.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
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A good dog will bark and let you know something is amiss giving you the time you might need to get your firearm to protect you and your loved ones if need be. Remember a break in could be just random for anything.
Might as well go for the .454 Casull.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I have $500 in hard cold cash, and a large bag of AG Buffalo nickels in the top drawer of my master bedroom's dresser drawer. I've heard that's where they go first. My assumption is they'll grab that and happily run off ... at least that's my theory. Yet to have it tested though.
Dave
I did just that in a 10'X24'. We are still working on the inside finishes though.
I am sure there is better, but I opted for 3 Rhino Ironworks Safes inside with humidity control in each along with an ERV system.
I got one double the size i thought i needed. Im on my 4th upgrade already.....its never big enough unless you stop collecting.
Maybe the word " inevitable " wasn't the right word. Unthinkable maybe.
I feel comfortable having a safe plus a Hugh Wood policy. No need for a vault, just a reasonably heavy (150-200lbs) “residential storage container” bolted to the floor. Most important of all is to live in a decent area without a lot of home break ins.
That’s good thinking, I hope we all can stay safe. It’s no fun when a hobby that we enjoy and love can cost us or our loved ones our lives.
That’s a nice weapon with lots of stopping power, but not the weapon of choice in this scenario.
A gun will be to your head, perp will be literally within an arms reach. It has to be a weapon such as a 11.8 oz. five shot .357 Magnum revolver, you will have to be so quick, weapon needs to be small and lightweight with jacketed hollow points for effectiveness. My suggestion is a M&P 340 PD would be my choice.
The other choice is no safe and no valuables in your home.
This is my “safe”.
I've got a medium size gun safe (~400 lbs empty) that's UL fire-rated to 45 minutes. It's bolted to the floor to make it more difficult to remove, but I'm under no illusion that a determined thief with an angle grinder, a dozen cut-off wheels, and a bit of time wouldn't be able to break into it... they'd just make a heck of a lot of noise doing it.
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Interesting about ANA. I have a spreadsheet of every coin I have. Could they build a policy around that or would I need an official hands on appraisal?
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Hugh Wood Insurance
National 50 gun safe@ 1500 lbs bolted to floor; Dehumidifier rod and is 2.5 hour at 131,000 BTU.
Locate in discrete or hidden location furthest distance away from easy access point or egress.
Gated home, . Security cameras, system, .45 Springfield, M4 and tactical 12 gauge.
Live in a state that's not afraid to prosecute criminals and has stand your ground laws e.g. SD, FL, TX, etc
https://www.libertysafesfl.com/products/magnum-series?pr_prod_strat=e5_desc&pr_rec_id=0b9a9ac6c&pr_rec_pid=8138716086426&pr_ref_pid=8138715660442&pr_seq=uniform
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
Hugh Wood won't ask for a list of your coins. They do want to know of any single coin worth 10K or more. They have a few questions about how and where the coins will be stored. If you have a loss they will ask for a list at that time.
I believe you can get a quote, online. It's an easy process.
1500 LBS ? may rules out most second story placements