In a way I'm lucky because CAC doesn't recognize my series as being important enough for being considered as bean worthy. That's OK because over the years I think my grading skills have come a long way and I can very accurately grade Kennedy half dollars. I don't need a sticker to tell me that PCGS got the grade right. And PCGS brings higher prices than any other TPG graders. I think the beans will go away as the new grading company gets more accepted with quicker turn around times, accurate grades, and better established prices. So will the "old" beans still have a premium price?
You only live life once, enjoy it like it's your last day. It just MIGHT be!
@Elcontador said:
How many times has someone sent in a $100 or $200 coin, had it stickered and had a modest increase in value as a result. And then, peeled it of and sold it to a scammer that put it on an expensive coin? And how many of the latter coins are out there now?
I once bought a CAC coin that had the transparent portion of an auction house label covering 1/4 of the CAC sticker. I carefully tried to peel off the transparent portion only to find the portion of the green label of the CAC sticker peeled off. This left what appeared to be a silver/gold CAC remnant. I notified CAC and it was restickered.
Making the sticker tamper proof may have been one of the goals for the design of the CACG label.
CAC does not sticker Kennedy Halves not because they feel that series is not important enough to sticker, but because they made a business decision, taking their staff size into account, to focus mainly on Classic coins.
Yes, I agree with a bit of time CAC stickering will indeed go away. JA has said this publicly several times. It appears it will probably be no later than the end of his current contract in 8-1/2 years, and possibly sooner.
You ask if when that happens will the stickered coins still have a premium price? In my opinion, that pricing differential between stickered and non-stickered coins will not only not decrease, but it will actually increase, due to a static supply but growing demand.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
More collectors have had the liquidity of their collections impacted by not having sticker than have benefited from a god level grader cherry picking the market preference out of the masses...
I say this as a fan of CAC but it is a marketing tool that has benefited dealers way more than collectors. Just those of us used to be able to pick A coins out of the masses and get them for retail has dramatically dried up. Combined with the ability to sell C coins for competitive % of retail is also now an uphill battle. Those are not collector benefits.
Good point. And the average low pass rate at CAC confirms it. Collecting coins is driven by degrees of perfection (both directions). There is definitely resistance to CAC/CACG by long time collectors who feel they learned how to grade the hard way.
Today's difficult question is whether to become aware of, if any, shortcomings in their coins now or much later when they or their heirs need to sell.
@alaura22 said:
Thanks Steve for the heads up.
I too am a CAC fan as you know, most of the coins I own that could have a CAC sticker have a CAC sticker.
Now, did I check everyone of them through CAC ? I believe that I did but NOW I'll go back and check them all
The easy way to do this is to enter your coins on either the PCGS or CAC Set Registry inventories. The "CAC" pops up in the sticker column on the PCGS Inventory and the "green CAC sticker" pops up on the CAC Inventory; except, when it's a CACG coin. Then there is no green CAC sticker. : )
Thanks
I forgot all about the sticker column in the inventory, dah.............
You saved me a lot of time
All is good
@291fifth said:
The sooner stickers disappear from the hobby the better.
or
The sooner stickers disappear, coins may be a true hobby again.
Believe it or not, for many of us, CAC stickering has made the hobby BETTER AND more fun!
Steve
Not to be argumentative, but it seems like you're saying "I bought an awesome coin", then all of the sudden it's a "bad coin" because it doesn't have a sticker.
Yeah, what I’m getting out of this thread is that the OP has no clue how to grade, buying blindly as long as the slab has a cac sticker. Might want to sharpen your numismatic skills versus imperatively checking some cac lookup tool on a website.
What I’m getting out of this thread is that the OP took the time and made the effort to try to help others.
And that you were incredibly rude and clueless about him buying blindly. Might want to sharpen your knowledge and awareness vs. imperatively posting insults on a website.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@291fifth said:
The sooner stickers disappear from the hobby the better.
or
The sooner stickers disappear, coins may be a true hobby again.
Believe it or not, for many of us, CAC stickering has made the hobby BETTER AND more fun!
Steve
Not to be argumentative, but it seems like you're saying "I bought an awesome coin", then all of the sudden it's a "bad coin" because it doesn't have a sticker.
Yeah, what I’m getting out of this thread is that the OP has no clue how to grade, buying blindly as long as the slab has a cac sticker. Might want to sharpen your numismatic skills versus imperatively checking some cac lookup tool on a website.
Unnecessary to call him out. Despite having a gorgeous collection, Steve has admitted on multiple occasions that his grading skills are rather unrefined, and as an older gentleman with diminished eyesight it probably wouldnt make much sense to start sharpening his skills now. He enjoys himself and has fun collecting, and thats truly all that matters.
Not every collector has the capability of being an expert level grader, and if they did, the grading services and coin dealers would have a tough time making a living. Collectors who recognize their limitations but willingly pay for the professional experience of others are the life-blood of the hobby, and in my opinion they shouldnt be shamed for it.
Well said but the last part should have read “life-blood of the profession” not hobby. Otherwise tip of the hat to you
Thanks for the warning, I thought I read on CAC website that the stickers are not removable without destruction. I wonder if they are covering up a counterfeit?
@davewesen said:
Thanks for the warning, I thought I read on CAC website that the stickers are not removable without destruction. I wonder if they are covering up a counterfeit?
My sense in talking to JA once he had the coin in hand that it was indeed the changes in the sticker from having been removed from another coin that led him know IMMEDIATELY that this sticker was one that was removed, and not counterfeit.
Being naïve, and NOT having checked the CAC "Coin Look-Up" tool, when the coin arrived after purchase, I spent my time looking at the coin, not the sticker.
Separately, I truly believe had that sticker indeed been counterfeit, JA would have said so. Heritage now has the coin, and my strong sense is they agree that the sticker is not counterfeit, but has been removed from another coin.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@1madman said:
Yeah, what I’m getting out of this thread is that the OP has no clue how to grade, buying blindly as long as the slab has a cac sticker. Might want to sharpen your numismatic skills versus imperatively checking some cac lookup tool on a website.
Grading is subjective. CAC is even more subjective. There is a thread going-on now related to why some coins didn't CAC, and there is no consensus among the experts. It is not fair at all to drag a collector for their ability (or inability) to predict if a CAC is accurate.
Regardless, CAC-stickered coins bring premiums. Collectors should not pay CAC premiums on non-CACed coins (and HA is making good on this, which is awesome). When a collector buys a non-CAC coin, and returns it to a dealer when it fails at CAC - that's wrong and the collector gets deservedly dragged. But, now we have a situation where the collector gets duped by a fraudulent sticker and the COLLECTOR gets dragged?
Re-read this a few times and let it all sink in.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
@291fifth said:
The sooner stickers disappear from the hobby the better.
Agree with this 100%, there is way too much obsession with stickers and TPGs.
...says the guy frequently posting on a TPG owned and operated forum.
Don't forget who threw you in jail.
I'm sure @lermish and @erscolo will meet again on the raw coin forum after the TPGs go out of business. {end sarcasm}
I'm always amazed at the number of people hostile to TPGs on a TPG coin forum. I wonder how many PCGS resources those people use, for free, at the same time they are hating the people supplying the resources.
I didn't read every reply thoroughly so maybe I missed it, but the biggest take-away from this is for me is ridiculous. It tells me that the OP and most probably many collectors are less interested in what the coin actually looks like and its grade than they are in that little green CAC sticker. The coin in question hasn't changed and the OP clearly liked it and thought it was superior and worthy of inclusion in his collection. The twist is clear: that opinion was based entirely on the CAC sticker.
So @291fifth is correct in his assessment for me, the entire sticker phenomenon has distorted the Hobby. The top collectors have been persuaded to look past their own instincts and grading acumen to believe coins aren't worth owning unless they have the CAC sticker!! I find it somewhat embarrassing for the OP. I have viewed his coins here, followed with interest as he's built collections and had displays at shows. Checked his listings at the BST when he's sold coins to upgrade his collection. Now I am left believing that the primary quality a coin must possess in his view is a CAC sticker. That is discouraging, because I naturally extrapolate that finding to mean there are many, many collectors, no doubt some of them at this forum, who have fallen into the same trap.
Here's what I know: it is hard to become proficient at grading coins. Being a specialist is one thing but being a generalist is completely on a different level. The nuances of each series are hard to know, it takes years and decades to become proficient enough to not get skinned alive. Prior to the advent in the 1980's of the various TPG's a pure collector was really vulnerable. I started collecting around 1965 and didn't become wholly confident in my ability until the late 1990's and into the present century. I eventually became confident enough in my own ability that I could buy raw with a minimum of worry but STILL occasionally got burned. It happens. Then along came CAC and the game changed yet again.
This experience related by the OP took a lot of guts to post here because, JMHO, it exposes him as being duped but it also exposes the Industry. The Hobby has had to deal with counterfeiting in numerous forms, perhaps the "fake slab scandals" have been the worst. Now we are faced with things attached to the outside of the slab which are universally trusted. Collectors, slowly and most likely without realizing it themselves, are paying less attention to the actual coin. They trust the encapsulation, they trust the sticker company, they stop their progression of learning how to grade.
@davewesen said:
Thanks for the warning, I thought I read on CAC website that the stickers are not removable without destruction. I wonder if they are covering up a counterfeit?
My sense in talking to JA once he had the coin in hand that it was indeed the changes in the sticker from having been removed from another coin that led him know IMMEDIATELY that this sticker was one that was removed, and not counterfeit.
Being naïve, and NOT having checked the CAC "Coin Look-Up" tool, when the coin arrived after purchase, I spent my time looking at the coin, not the sticker.
Separately, I truly believe had that sticker indeed been counterfeit, JA would have said so.** Heritage now has the coin, and my strong sense is they agree that the sticker is not counterfeit, but has been removed from another coin.**
Steve
It is interesting that JA left the CAC sticker on the cent when sending it to Heritage. I'd think he would have removed it first before releasing it.
@davewesen said:
Thanks for the warning, I thought I read on CAC website that the stickers are not removable without destruction. I wonder if they are covering up a counterfeit?
My sense in talking to JA once he had the coin in hand that it was indeed the changes in the sticker from having been removed from another coin that led him know IMMEDIATELY that this sticker was one that was removed, and not counterfeit.
Being naïve, and NOT having checked the CAC "Coin Look-Up" tool, when the coin arrived after purchase, I spent my time looking at the coin, not the sticker.
Separately, I truly believe had that sticker indeed been counterfeit, JA would have said so.** Heritage now has the coin, and my strong sense is they agree that the sticker is not counterfeit, but has been removed from another coin.**
Steve
It is interesting that JA left the CAC sticker on the cent when sending it to Heritage. I'd think he would have removed it first before releasing it.
I can't speak for JA, but I think he wanted Heritage to see that sticker, since they're being asked to refund me what I paid. There's a ZERO chance that Heritage will resell that coin with that sticker!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Maywood said:
I didn't read every reply thoroughly so maybe I missed it, but the biggest take-away from this is for me is ridiculous. It tells me that the OP and most probably many collectors are less interested in what the coin actually looks like and its grade than they are in that little green CAC sticker. The coin in question hasn't changed and the OP clearly liked it and thought it was superior and worthy of inclusion in his collection. The twist is clear: that opinion was based entirely on the CAC sticker.
So @291fifth is correct in his assessment for me, the entire sticker phenomenon has distorted the Hobby. The top collectors have been persuaded to look past their own instincts and grading acumen to believe coins aren't worth owning unless they have the CAC sticker!! I find it somewhat embarrassing for the OP. I have viewed his coins here, followed with interest as he's built collections and had displays at shows. Checked his listings at the BST when he's sold coins to upgrade his collection. Now I am left believing that the primary quality a coin must possess in his view is a CAC sticker. That is discouraging, because I naturally extrapolate that finding to mean there are many, many collectors, no doubt some of them at this forum, who have fallen into the same trap.
Here's what I know: it is hard to become proficient at grading coins. Being a specialist is one thing but being a generalist is completely on a different level. The nuances of each series are hard to know, it takes years and decades to become proficient enough to not get skinned alive. Prior to the advent in the 1980's of the various TPG's a pure collector was really vulnerable. I started collecting around 1965 and didn't become wholly confident in my ability until the late 1990's and into the present century. I eventually became confident enough in my own ability that I could buy raw with a minimum of worry but STILL occasionally got burned. It happens. Then along came CAC and the game changed yet again.
This experience related by the OP took a lot of guts to post here because, JMHO, it exposes him as being duped but it also exposes the Industry. The Hobby has had to deal with counterfeiting in numerous forms, perhaps the "fake slab scandals" have been the worst. Now we are faced with things attached to the outside of the slab which are universally trusted. Collectors, slowly and most likely without realizing it themselves, are paying less attention to the actual coin. They trust the encapsulation, they trust the sticker company, they stop their progression of learning how to grade.
This is the end result.
What I ...keep....getting from all the folderol is that possibly NO ONE knows how to grade perfectly and consistently or there would not be so much evolution (?) of "New and Improved" slabs.
Just last night I was hypothesizing what would happen if a rash of "cracklaries" struck a town.
Entering under cover of darkness, armed with jewelers saws, the evildoers carefully and precisely SAW OFF the tops of slabs but still leave the coins protected in the remaining center.
@Maywood said:
I didn't read every reply thoroughly so maybe I missed it, but the biggest take-away from this is for me is ridiculous. It tells me that the OP and most probably many collectors are less interested in what the coin actually looks like and its grade than they are in that little green CAC sticker. The coin in question hasn't changed and the OP clearly liked it and thought it was superior and worthy of inclusion in his collection. The twist is clear: that opinion was based entirely on the CAC sticker.
So @291fifth is correct in his assessment for me, the entire sticker phenomenon has distorted the Hobby. The top collectors have been persuaded to look past their own instincts and grading acumen to believe coins aren't worth owning unless they have the CAC sticker!! I find it somewhat embarrassing for the OP. I have viewed his coins here, followed with interest as he's built collections and had displays at shows. Checked his listings at the BST when he's sold coins to upgrade his collection. Now I am left believing that the primary quality a coin must possess in his view is a CAC sticker. That is discouraging, because I naturally extrapolate that finding to mean there are many, many collectors, no doubt some of them at this forum, who have fallen into the same trap.
Here's what I know: it is hard to become proficient at grading coins. Being a specialist is one thing but being a generalist is completely on a different level. The nuances of each series are hard to know, it takes years and decades to become proficient enough to not get skinned alive. Prior to the advent in the 1980's of the various TPG's a pure collector was really vulnerable. I started collecting around 1965 and didn't become wholly confident in my ability until the late 1990's and into the present century. I eventually became confident enough in my own ability that I could buy raw with a minimum of worry but STILL occasionally got burned. It happens. Then along came CAC and the game changed yet again.
This experience related by the OP took a lot of guts to post here because, JMHO, it exposes him as being duped but it also exposes the Industry. The Hobby has had to deal with counterfeiting in numerous forms, perhaps the "fake slab scandals" have been the worst. Now we are faced with things attached to the outside of the slab which are universally trusted. Collectors, slowly and most likely without realizing it themselves, are paying less attention to the actual coin. They trust the encapsulation, they trust the sticker company, they stop their progression of learning how to grade.
This is the end result.
That is NOT the conclusion. He never said that he no longer liked the coin. But he wanted a completely CAC set and that didn't fit anymore.
@davewesen said:
Thanks for the warning, I thought I read on CAC website that the stickers are not removable without destruction. I wonder if they are covering up a counterfeit?
My sense in talking to JA once he had the coin in hand that it was indeed the changes in the sticker from having been removed from another coin that led him know IMMEDIATELY that this sticker was one that was removed, and not counterfeit.
Being naïve, and NOT having checked the CAC "Coin Look-Up" tool, when the coin arrived after purchase, I spent my time looking at the coin, not the sticker.
Separately, I truly believe had that sticker indeed been counterfeit, JA would have said so.** Heritage now has the coin, and my strong sense is they agree that the sticker is not counterfeit, but has been removed from another coin.**
Steve
It is interesting that JA left the CAC sticker on the cent when sending it to Heritage. I'd think he would have removed it first before releasing it.
I can't speak for JA, but I think he wanted Heritage to see that sticker, since they're being asked to refund me what I paid. There's a ZERO chance that Heritage will resell that coin with that sticker!
Steve
100%.
I was just a bit surprised the sticker was left on the cent when it was mailed out of CAC headquarters. I am sure once Heritage received the coin they will follow-up with removal.
On a side note: Place me in the camp of appreciative members/collectors who have taken what the OP meant to express in this thread to heart and have learned from it.
I do suppose though it was inevitable it would branch off in to topics that were probably not as intended.
@alaura22 said:
Thanks Steve for the heads up.
I too am a CAC fan as you know, most of the coins I own that could have a CAC sticker have a CAC sticker.
Now, did I check everyone of them through CAC ? I believe that I did but NOW I'll go back and check them all
The easy way to do this is to enter your coins on either the PCGS or CAC Set Registry inventories. The "CAC" pops up in the sticker column on the PCGS Inventory and the "green CAC sticker" pops up on the CAC Inventory; except, when it's a CACG coin. Then there is no green CAC sticker. : )
Exactly what I always do. 👍😉
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
@psuman08 said:
Steve, I appreciate you sharing this information. I don't get all the back and forth here.
Some people just love to derail an educational post intended to help others if they have an opportunity to pick on CAC, and that's OK. Some said I should be embarrassed, but silly me - I don't feel embarrassed at all. Yes, when that Lincoln Cent arrived I was looking at the coin, and not the sticker, but I've learned that lesson, and obviously, my goal was to share that lesson with others, so they don't make that mistake. But as noted, I have nothing to be embarrassed about!
Some think that all I do is look for the sticker in the grade I want. As I've said a couple of times above, that misstatement could not be further from the truth! As a true example, I'm looking to upgrade my 1885 Morgan Dollar, graded 66+. Just this morning I got an email lead on a lovely 67 PCGS CAC. I pulled mine out of the SDB, and realized my 66+ is nicer than that very nice 67, so I passed, which is what ends up happening with the vast majority of CAC'd coins I consider buying.
As I also said above, I have full confidence in the quality of the coins in my collection, knowing that for most of them, I've passed dozens of others by with CAC stickers in that grade. That's why I confidently offered to put any of my sets up against those same non-stickered sets owned by the CAC critics in this thread of similarly graded coins. I'm fully confident an unbiased Numismatist would recognize my coins in that set are of better quality (ignoring subjective eye appeal, but looking at the coin compared to the grade, along with surface issues).
I believe it was in John Heyward's book of proverb's where the expression originated - "He who laughs last laughs best!"
Thanks for your support!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
There are folks that will try to take advantage of anything that is deemed to add value.
Buyer beware. Do your own due diligence.
I’m surprised I haven’t heard more of this given the counterfeiting of coins and slabs. If having the CAC sticker adds value you can be sure there are crooks looking to take advantage of the situation. Glad the OP was dealing with a reputable dealer and got financial restored.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Thank you for the post, Steven.
I skipped through a lot of the thread as it began to come off the rails a bit.
I wasn’t aware of that coin look-up through the CAC site. I checked out my inventory just to be safe.
I appreciate you sharing this information with the forum.
It never ceases to amaze me how even a heartfelt and generous PSA can so quickly turn into a cesspit of innuendo, recriminations, insults, degradation, and takedowns.
Good Lord. The OP put himself out there in the furtherance of helping to prevent every reader from possibly being duped and honestly, ROBBED! This is how he gets repaid? Why would anyone ever bother to do that again? Cuz everyone is sooooo perfect they couldn’t make the same error? How magnificent it must be to exist in such a glorious and immaculate state!
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
@Maywood said:
I didn't read every reply thoroughly so maybe I missed it, but the biggest take-away from this is for me is ridiculous. It tells me that the OP and most probably many collectors are less interested in what the coin actually looks like and its grade than they are in that little green CAC sticker. The coin in question hasn't changed and the OP clearly liked it and thought it was superior and worthy of inclusion in his collection. The twist is clear: that opinion was based entirely on the CAC sticker.
So @291fifth is correct in his assessment for me, the entire sticker phenomenon has distorted the Hobby. The top collectors have been persuaded to look past their own instincts and grading acumen to believe coins aren't worth owning unless they have the CAC sticker!!
I had a nice blast white MS66 commemorative that didn't sticker. Darn it, this is a nice coin! What the heck's wrong with it? So I had it sent to CACG and told them to grade it. Whatever is wrong with this coin, I want to know what it is. I'll take the consequences. It came back - MS65+. Yes, I wish it was a MS66; but, I can live with a MS65+. I wish I knew it was a MS65+ when I bought it. But at least now I know my coin is accurately graded. And when I compare my MS65+ to MS66s I can now see the very slight shortcomings of what some may call a low end MS66.
Hi Steve, I don’t want to derail your helpful post, but I’d like to note that I’ve had occasion to remove a few CAC stickers in the past.
Knowing that they are “tamper resistant”, I of course took it as a challenge. With a razor blade dipped in a bit of solvent and 10 minutes or so, I had it off totally intact. Then I flicked it into the can.
So it is very possible, and your PSA is a good one. I’m glad you did not get burned.
@scubafuel said:
Hi Steve, I don’t want to derail your helpful post, but I’d like to note that I’ve had occasion to remove a few CAC stickers in the past.
Knowing that they are “tamper resistant”, I of course took it as a challenge. With a razor blade dipped in a bit of solvent and 10 minutes or so, I had it off totally intact. Then I flicked it into the can.
So it is very possible, and your PSA is a good one. I’m glad you did not get burned.
Your comment is not derailing my post, but instead is adding relevant information.
Thanks.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
The CDN values CAC stickered and CPG slabs the same. If they want either that’s ok w me I (just mark them up accordingly) but they are going to need to pay the money. Got pocket?
At shows (and in all fairness) I generally offer 10 pct back of the CAC CDN bid for them. I pay cash money. Picked up a few at a recent show. Sweet
Don’t peel the stickers off lol. Then your shooting yourself in the foot in what you can get for them.
@ReadyFireAim said:
If I do buy a coin with a CAC sticker, I peal it off.
Problem solved.
Why pay a CAC price when you might be able get one without a CAC for less money?
This goes back to the question of whether the price is for the sticker or the quality of the coin that the sticker represents. In theory, the A/B coins command the premium with or without the sticker.
@winesteven - your tip is practical, simple, and valuable. I appreciate your sharing it. I'm adding it to my personal "book of coin wisdom" right after "don't attribute a coin based on one side only - flip it over and confirm!"
@DisneyFan said:
Why pay a CAC price when you might be able get one without a CAC for less money?
I like what I like.
Most of the time they don't have stickers.
Sometimes the really shiny ones do.
I'm not that impressed with shiny.
I'm more of a technical grader.
I've seen your postings the past. Welcome back! I agree CAC doesn't focus as much on strikes and that's where you are good. My concern is what @winesteven refers to as "surfaces issues." They are there and JA catches them.
. I'm fully confident an unbiased Numismatist would recognize my coins in that set are of better quality (ignoring subjective eye appeal, but looking at the coin compared to the grade, along with surface issues).
Are you saying that someone comparing sets SHOULD NOT consider "subjective" eye appeal when comparing sets whether cac approved or not?
I must disagree to that. I would definitely choose a technical 64 with nice eye appeal over an ugly spotty technical 65 or 66.
Keep in mind that cac has had to buy back and remove coins that stickered based on technical issues. Mistakes happen and cac is not perfect but they do deal with those issues properly and professionally.
@gtstang said:
. I'm fully confident an unbiased Numismatist would recognize my coins in that set are of better quality (ignoring subjective eye appeal, but looking at the coin compared to the grade, along with surface issues).
Are you saying that someone comparing sets SHOULD NOT consider "subjective" eye appeal when comparing sets whether cac approved or not?
I must disagree to that. I would definitely choose a technical 64 with nice eye appeal over an ugly spotty technical 65 or 66.
Keep in mind that cac has had to buy back and remove coins that stickered based on technical issues. Mistakes happen and cac is not perfect but they do deal with those issues properly and professionally.
My point is that eye appeal is subjective. A real life example is with 20th century silver, such as Standing Lib Quarters. The majority of collectors might like toned coins, which "proves" originality. But a large minority of collectors may prefer blast white coins with tremendous luster. Those latter coins may likely have been dipped, but if done gently enough, that's ok to them (and to CAC too). In this example, an unbiased Numismatist should not "penalize" either.
With that said, I fully agree with you that a coin that the vast majority says has ugly/bad eye appeal (exactly as you say with "ugly spotty") does indeed matter. But the point i made in my earlier posts refers to my first example in the paragraph above.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
I have a few stickered coins and never thought to check. Thanks for starting this thread and for all of the comments. I’ve learned something today and it’s why I enjoy it here.
I track my coins with Excel. Here's a shortcut to creating a URL link to validate the CAC status of a coin, assuming you have the slab# in a column in your sheet. Granted, this is not helpful if you're just browsing a coin or have a slab in-hand, but if you're like me and log auction items you're considering bidding on, it's right there anyway.
I'm not attaching the Excel original, but the formula is below. Change "A2" to the column your slab # is in, for the row you're on. It'll pop a tab on your default browser if all works as planned. (Famous software developer line: "It works on my machine.")
=HYPERLINK(CONCATENATE("https://cacgrading.com/lookup/",SUBSTITUTE(A2,"-","")))
No preference here on CU for another company, BTW! I have a formula to take me to the lookup page on PCGS and NGC. If anyone needs that, holler.
@291fifth said:
The sooner stickers disappear from the hobby the better.
or
The sooner stickers disappear, coins may be a true hobby again.
Believe it or not, for many of us, CAC stickering has made the hobby BETTER AND more fun!
Steve
More collectors have had the liquidity of their collections impacted by not having sticker than have benefited from a god level grader cherry picking the market preference out of the masses. Yes the 1% buyers out there have saved from not making as many mistakes but even then they paid a price by not having the lessons trust upon them those mistakes mandate to the quick to learn. Maybe one doesn’t want to live and learn but the hobby is about living and learning and not just competition or investing.
I say this as a fan of CAC but it is a marketing tool that has benefited dealers way more than collectors. Just those of us used to be able to pick A coins out of the masses and get them for retail has dramatically dried up. Combined with the ability to sell C coins for competitive % of retail is also now an uphill battle. Those are not collector benefits
Why is it not a collector benefit for them to be able to avoid the C coins that you appear to want to sell them?
CAC benefits collectors far more than dealers.
You have never sold anything but A+ coins. I would bet more than you could afford that you have sold more meh coins than I have ever owned. I am not a dealer and learned to grade over many speed bumps. Besides what I collect, many issues are simply not out there with A+ levels of preservation since they have been collectible for generations and having been processed by too many transactions not to have been fiddled with. Fresh is market slang meaning that it hasn’t been through too many dealers hands after all.
The whole construct that patina as a trait that deserves a price multiplier due to increased rarity is an attrition metric and any dealer knowns imparting scarcity is the key to adding value post procurement. Just as FBLs is a marketing schtick meant to impart scarcity/superiority to add value to otherwise common stuff. CAC is a pay more identifier in a market that the vast majority is simply trying to get their widgets to stand out. That helps dealers charge 50$ more for a nicely graded 81s dollar, I don’t think it adds much value to a choice AU58 61d dollar.
Of course CAC has helped pull some problems out of the market and a few collectors with the means have used it as a invaluable learning tool, but looked at on a pure number transactions base it has been used by dealers to maximize their inventory as a value add to charge more for other wise the same coins. Paying more for some random dealers 81s isn’t some blessing to collectors. And while paying 50$ more for a not bad 81s might be preferable to many newbs opposed to paying retail for an overgraded example, there were plenty of not bad 81s transacted before CAC. The detriment CAC has brought to collectors is the bad ones are still priced now closer to CAC’ed levels at the middle of the market and the collector’s good 81s not stickered is assumed bad or at best needing grading. Also not a blessing to collectors.
@291fifth said:
The sooner stickers disappear from the hobby the better.
or
The sooner stickers disappear, coins may be a true hobby again.
Believe it or not, for many of us, CAC stickering has made the hobby BETTER AND more fun!
Steve
More collectors have had the liquidity of their collections impacted by not having sticker than have benefited from a god level grader cherry picking the market preference out of the masses. Yes the 1% buyers out there have saved from not making as many mistakes but even then they paid a price by not having the lessons trust upon them those mistakes mandate to the quick to learn. Maybe one doesn’t want to live and learn but the hobby is about living and learning and not just competition or investing.
I say this as a fan of CAC but it is a marketing tool that has benefited dealers way more than collectors. Just those of us used to be able to pick A coins out of the masses and get them for retail has dramatically dried up. Combined with the ability to sell C coins for competitive % of retail is also now an uphill battle. Those are not collector benefits
Why is it not a collector benefit for them to be able to avoid the C coins that you appear to want to sell them?
CAC benefits collectors far more than dealers.
You have never sold anything but A+ coins. I would bet more than you could afford that you have sold more meh coins than I have ever owned. I am not a dealer and learned to grade over many speed bumps. Besides what I collect, many issues are simply not out there with A+ levels of preservation since they have been collectible for generations and having been processed by too many transactions not to have been fiddled with. Fresh is market slang meaning that it hasn’t been through too many dealers hands after all.
The whole construct that patina as a trait that deserves a price multiplier due to increased rarity is an attrition metric and any dealer knowns imparting scarcity is the key to adding value post procurement. Just as FBLs is a marketing schtick meant to impart scarcity/superiority to add value to otherwise common stuff. CAC is a pay more identifier in a market that the vast majority is simply trying to get their widgets to stand out. That helps dealers charge 50$ more for a nicely graded 81s dollar, I don’t think it adds much value to a choice AU58 61d dollar.
Of course CAC has helped pull some problems out of the market and a few collectors with the means have used it as a invaluable learning tool, but looked at on a pure number transactions base it has been used by dealers to maximize their inventory as a value add to charge more for other wise the same coins. Paying more for some random dealers 81s isn’t some blessing to collectors. And while paying 50$ more for a not bad 81s might be preferable to many newbs opposed to paying retail for an overgraded example, there were plenty of not bad 81s transacted before CAC. The detriment CAC has brought to collectors is the bad ones are still priced now closer to CAC’ed levels at the middle of the market and the collector’s good 81s not stickered is assumed bad or at best needing grading. Also not a blessing to collectors.
I see many NON CAC coins on GC go for high prices. And some CAC coins not bringing much premiums as well.
@Bikergeek said: @winesteven - your tip is practical, simple, and valuable. I appreciate your sharing it. I'm adding it to my personal "book of coin wisdom" right after "don't attribute a coin based on one side only - flip it over and confirm!"
Comments
In a way I'm lucky because CAC doesn't recognize my series as being important enough for being considered as bean worthy. That's OK because over the years I think my grading skills have come a long way and I can very accurately grade Kennedy half dollars. I don't need a sticker to tell me that PCGS got the grade right. And PCGS brings higher prices than any other TPG graders. I think the beans will go away as the new grading company gets more accepted with quicker turn around times, accurate grades, and better established prices. So will the "old" beans still have a premium price?
I once bought a CAC coin that had the transparent portion of an auction house label covering 1/4 of the CAC sticker. I carefully tried to peel off the transparent portion only to find the portion of the green label of the CAC sticker peeled off. This left what appeared to be a silver/gold CAC remnant. I notified CAC and it was restickered.
Making the sticker tamper proof may have been one of the goals for the design of the CACG label.
CAC does not sticker Kennedy Halves not because they feel that series is not important enough to sticker, but because they made a business decision, taking their staff size into account, to focus mainly on Classic coins.
Yes, I agree with a bit of time CAC stickering will indeed go away. JA has said this publicly several times. It appears it will probably be no later than the end of his current contract in 8-1/2 years, and possibly sooner.
You ask if when that happens will the stickered coins still have a premium price? In my opinion, that pricing differential between stickered and non-stickered coins will not only not decrease, but it will actually increase, due to a static supply but growing demand.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Good point. And the average low pass rate at CAC confirms it. Collecting coins is driven by degrees of perfection (both directions). There is definitely resistance to CAC/CACG by long time collectors who feel they learned how to grade the hard way.
Today's difficult question is whether to become aware of, if any, shortcomings in their coins now or much later when they or their heirs need to sell.
Thanks
I forgot all about the sticker column in the inventory, dah.............
You saved me a lot of time
All is good
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
What I’m getting out of this thread is that the OP took the time and made the effort to try to help others.
And that you were incredibly rude and clueless about him buying blindly. Might want to sharpen your knowledge and awareness vs. imperatively posting insults on a website.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well said but the last part should have read “life-blood of the profession” not hobby. Otherwise tip of the hat to you
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Thanks for the warning, I thought I read on CAC website that the stickers are not removable without destruction. I wonder if they are covering up a counterfeit?
My sense in talking to JA once he had the coin in hand that it was indeed the changes in the sticker from having been removed from another coin that led him know IMMEDIATELY that this sticker was one that was removed, and not counterfeit.
Being naïve, and NOT having checked the CAC "Coin Look-Up" tool, when the coin arrived after purchase, I spent my time looking at the coin, not the sticker.
Separately, I truly believe had that sticker indeed been counterfeit, JA would have said so. Heritage now has the coin, and my strong sense is they agree that the sticker is not counterfeit, but has been removed from another coin.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Grading is subjective. CAC is even more subjective. There is a thread going-on now related to why some coins didn't CAC, and there is no consensus among the experts. It is not fair at all to drag a collector for their ability (or inability) to predict if a CAC is accurate.
Regardless, CAC-stickered coins bring premiums. Collectors should not pay CAC premiums on non-CACed coins (and HA is making good on this, which is awesome). When a collector buys a non-CAC coin, and returns it to a dealer when it fails at CAC - that's wrong and the collector gets deservedly dragged. But, now we have a situation where the collector gets duped by a fraudulent sticker and the COLLECTOR gets dragged?
Re-read this a few times and let it all sink in.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Agree with this 100%, there is way too much obsession with stickers and TPGs.
...says the guy frequently posting on a TPG owned and operated forum.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Don't forget who threw you in jail.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I'm sure @lermish and @erscolo will meet again on the raw coin forum after the TPGs go out of business. {end sarcasm}
I'm always amazed at the number of people hostile to TPGs on a TPG coin forum. I wonder how many PCGS resources those people use, for free, at the same time they are hating the people supplying the resources.
I didn't read every reply thoroughly so maybe I missed it, but the biggest take-away from this is for me is ridiculous. It tells me that the OP and most probably many collectors are less interested in what the coin actually looks like and its grade than they are in that little green CAC sticker. The coin in question hasn't changed and the OP clearly liked it and thought it was superior and worthy of inclusion in his collection. The twist is clear: that opinion was based entirely on the CAC sticker.
So @291fifth is correct in his assessment for me, the entire sticker phenomenon has distorted the Hobby. The top collectors have been persuaded to look past their own instincts and grading acumen to believe coins aren't worth owning unless they have the CAC sticker!! I find it somewhat embarrassing for the OP. I have viewed his coins here, followed with interest as he's built collections and had displays at shows. Checked his listings at the BST when he's sold coins to upgrade his collection. Now I am left believing that the primary quality a coin must possess in his view is a CAC sticker. That is discouraging, because I naturally extrapolate that finding to mean there are many, many collectors, no doubt some of them at this forum, who have fallen into the same trap.
Here's what I know: it is hard to become proficient at grading coins. Being a specialist is one thing but being a generalist is completely on a different level. The nuances of each series are hard to know, it takes years and decades to become proficient enough to not get skinned alive. Prior to the advent in the 1980's of the various TPG's a pure collector was really vulnerable. I started collecting around 1965 and didn't become wholly confident in my ability until the late 1990's and into the present century. I eventually became confident enough in my own ability that I could buy raw with a minimum of worry but STILL occasionally got burned. It happens. Then along came CAC and the game changed yet again.
This experience related by the OP took a lot of guts to post here because, JMHO, it exposes him as being duped but it also exposes the Industry. The Hobby has had to deal with counterfeiting in numerous forms, perhaps the "fake slab scandals" have been the worst. Now we are faced with things attached to the outside of the slab which are universally trusted. Collectors, slowly and most likely without realizing it themselves, are paying less attention to the actual coin. They trust the encapsulation, they trust the sticker company, they stop their progression of learning how to grade.
This is the end result.
It is interesting that JA left the CAC sticker on the cent when sending it to Heritage. I'd think he would have removed it first before releasing it.
peacockcoins
I can't speak for JA, but I think he wanted Heritage to see that sticker, since they're being asked to refund me what I paid. There's a ZERO chance that Heritage will resell that coin with that sticker!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
What I ...keep....getting from all the folderol is that possibly NO ONE knows how to grade perfectly and consistently or there would not be so much evolution (?) of "New and Improved" slabs.
Just last night I was hypothesizing what would happen if a rash of "cracklaries" struck a town.
Entering under cover of darkness, armed with jewelers saws, the evildoers carefully and precisely SAW OFF the tops of slabs but still leave the coins protected in the remaining center.
What would be the fate of those coins?
That is NOT the conclusion. He never said that he no longer liked the coin. But he wanted a completely CAC set and that didn't fit anymore.
I'm thinking about cracking out all my seated quarters and putting them back in a Dansco.
100%.
I was just a bit surprised the sticker was left on the cent when it was mailed out of CAC headquarters. I am sure once Heritage received the coin they will follow-up with removal.
On a side note: Place me in the camp of appreciative members/collectors who have taken what the OP meant to express in this thread to heart and have learned from it.
I do suppose though it was inevitable it would branch off in to topics that were probably not as intended.
peacockcoins
Only a RED one though.
Cool, or this.
Exactly what I always do. 👍😉
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Steve, I appreciate you sharing this information. I don't get all the back and forth here.
Some people just love to derail an educational post intended to help others if they have an opportunity to pick on CAC, and that's OK. Some said I should be embarrassed, but silly me - I don't feel embarrassed at all. Yes, when that Lincoln Cent arrived I was looking at the coin, and not the sticker, but I've learned that lesson, and obviously, my goal was to share that lesson with others, so they don't make that mistake. But as noted, I have nothing to be embarrassed about!
Some think that all I do is look for the sticker in the grade I want. As I've said a couple of times above, that misstatement could not be further from the truth! As a true example, I'm looking to upgrade my 1885 Morgan Dollar, graded 66+. Just this morning I got an email lead on a lovely 67 PCGS CAC. I pulled mine out of the SDB, and realized my 66+ is nicer than that very nice 67, so I passed, which is what ends up happening with the vast majority of CAC'd coins I consider buying.
As I also said above, I have full confidence in the quality of the coins in my collection, knowing that for most of them, I've passed dozens of others by with CAC stickers in that grade. That's why I confidently offered to put any of my sets up against those same non-stickered sets owned by the CAC critics in this thread of similarly graded coins. I'm fully confident an unbiased Numismatist would recognize my coins in that set are of better quality (ignoring subjective eye appeal, but looking at the coin compared to the grade, along with surface issues).
I believe it was in John Heyward's book of proverb's where the expression originated - "He who laughs last laughs best!"
Thanks for your support!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
The educational points are:
There are folks that will try to take advantage of anything that is deemed to add value.
Buyer beware. Do your own due diligence.
I’m surprised I haven’t heard more of this given the counterfeiting of coins and slabs. If having the CAC sticker adds value you can be sure there are crooks looking to take advantage of the situation. Glad the OP was dealing with a reputable dealer and got financial restored.
The post was a helpful alert about a scam that inflated your cost.
As collectors we should guard the hobby and search these certs going forward and looking back at past auctions.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Thank you for the post, Steven.
I skipped through a lot of the thread as it began to come off the rails a bit.
I wasn’t aware of that coin look-up through the CAC site. I checked out my inventory just to be safe.
I appreciate you sharing this information with the forum.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
It never ceases to amaze me how even a heartfelt and generous PSA can so quickly turn into a cesspit of innuendo, recriminations, insults, degradation, and takedowns.
Good Lord. The OP put himself out there in the furtherance of helping to prevent every reader from possibly being duped and honestly, ROBBED! This is how he gets repaid? Why would anyone ever bother to do that again? Cuz everyone is sooooo perfect they couldn’t make the same error? How magnificent it must be to exist in such a glorious and immaculate state!
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I had a nice blast white MS66 commemorative that didn't sticker. Darn it, this is a nice coin! What the heck's wrong with it? So I had it sent to CACG and told them to grade it. Whatever is wrong with this coin, I want to know what it is. I'll take the consequences. It came back - MS65+. Yes, I wish it was a MS66; but, I can live with a MS65+. I wish I knew it was a MS65+ when I bought it. But at least now I know my coin is accurately graded. And when I compare my MS65+ to MS66s I can now see the very slight shortcomings of what some may call a low end MS66.
Thanks Steve!
Appreciate the heads up!👍
Hi Steve, I don’t want to derail your helpful post, but I’d like to note that I’ve had occasion to remove a few CAC stickers in the past.
Knowing that they are “tamper resistant”, I of course took it as a challenge. With a razor blade dipped in a bit of solvent and 10 minutes or so, I had it off totally intact. Then I flicked it into the can.
So it is very possible, and your PSA is a good one. I’m glad you did not get burned.
Your comment is not derailing my post, but instead is adding relevant information.
Thanks.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
If I do buy a coin with a CAC sticker, I peal it off.
Problem solved.
My Saint Set
Why pay a CAC price when you might be able get one without a CAC for less money?
The CDN values CAC stickered and CPG slabs the same. If they want either that’s ok w me I (just mark them up accordingly) but they are going to need to pay the money. Got pocket?
At shows (and in all fairness) I generally offer 10 pct back of the CAC CDN bid for them. I pay cash money. Picked up a few at a recent show. Sweet
Don’t peel the stickers off lol. Then your shooting yourself in the foot in what you can get for them.
This goes back to the question of whether the price is for the sticker or the quality of the coin that the sticker represents. In theory, the A/B coins command the premium with or without the sticker.
I like what I like.
Most of the time they don't have stickers.
Sometimes the really shiny ones do.
I'm not that impressed with shiny.
I'm more of a technical grader.
My Saint Set
@winesteven - your tip is practical, simple, and valuable. I appreciate your sharing it. I'm adding it to my personal "book of coin wisdom" right after "don't attribute a coin based on one side only - flip it over and confirm!"
New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set
I've seen your postings the past. Welcome back! I agree CAC doesn't focus as much on strikes and that's where you are good. My concern is what @winesteven refers to as "surfaces issues." They are there and JA catches them.
. I'm fully confident an unbiased Numismatist would recognize my coins in that set are of better quality (ignoring subjective eye appeal, but looking at the coin compared to the grade, along with surface issues).
Are you saying that someone comparing sets SHOULD NOT consider "subjective" eye appeal when comparing sets whether cac approved or not?
I must disagree to that. I would definitely choose a technical 64 with nice eye appeal over an ugly spotty technical 65 or 66.
Keep in mind that cac has had to buy back and remove coins that stickered based on technical issues. Mistakes happen and cac is not perfect but they do deal with those issues properly and professionally.
My point is that eye appeal is subjective. A real life example is with 20th century silver, such as Standing Lib Quarters. The majority of collectors might like toned coins, which "proves" originality. But a large minority of collectors may prefer blast white coins with tremendous luster. Those latter coins may likely have been dipped, but if done gently enough, that's ok to them (and to CAC too). In this example, an unbiased Numismatist should not "penalize" either.
With that said, I fully agree with you that a coin that the vast majority says has ugly/bad eye appeal (exactly as you say with "ugly spotty") does indeed matter. But the point i made in my earlier posts refers to my first example in the paragraph above.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I have a few stickered coins and never thought to check. Thanks for starting this thread and for all of the comments. I’ve learned something today and it’s why I enjoy it here.
I track my coins with Excel. Here's a shortcut to creating a URL link to validate the CAC status of a coin, assuming you have the slab# in a column in your sheet. Granted, this is not helpful if you're just browsing a coin or have a slab in-hand, but if you're like me and log auction items you're considering bidding on, it's right there anyway.
I'm not attaching the Excel original, but the formula is below. Change "A2" to the column your slab # is in, for the row you're on. It'll pop a tab on your default browser if all works as planned. (Famous software developer line: "It works on my machine.")
=HYPERLINK(CONCATENATE("https://cacgrading.com/lookup/",SUBSTITUTE(A2,"-","")))
No preference here on CU for another company, BTW! I have a formula to take me to the lookup page on PCGS and NGC. If anyone needs that, holler.
New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set
I’d venture to say because you’re buying the better coin, not the sticker.
I see many NON CAC coins on GC go for high prices. And some CAC coins not bringing much premiums as well.
Are we supposed to grade the obverse as well?
CAC = Cocky Amateur Collector
My Saint Set