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Dr. Sheldon's pocket piece, A 1795 Large Cent, Reeded Edge, Brockage (Update; Graded)
DelawareDoons
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Link to post with grade/True views
Thought this might be of interest to the forum. A super neat piece that I got to work with recently.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
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That is super freakin cool! I love stuff like this.
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Neat coin.
However, it looks like possibly an electrotype.
I would expect more hair details down in the recesses of the brockage side (those are protected from wear and should be fuller).
Very interesting. So is it a mint issued novelty or an error? Inquiring minds want to know. Peace Roy
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That's more an issue with the rushed photos than anything else. It's real, and it's pedigreed too, Noyes has it in his anthology.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Nice!
Very cool. More info here - https://stacksbowers.com/dr-william-sheldon-and-the-s-79/
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Hands down, about the coolest thing I've seen in a while! Thanks for sharing...
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An established pedigree doesn't always equate to authenticity
My guess is that it was a mint issued novelty. The reeded edge cents of 1795 are classed as experimental, an attempt to minimize the risk of counterfeiting. This was determined to be too costly and the effort dropped after apparently only striking a few.
As for this coin, I think it's authentic. The obverse die is unique to this variety (S79). Further, it's been owned and studied for ~80 years by some of the best copper specialists that have ever lived. If was an electotype, fake, or some type of novodel, I think it would have been "outed' long ago.
Thank you for showing it. I think it is a cool piece ie a brockage with a cool pedigree ie Sheldon. I wouldn't know if it is genuine or an electrotype but I wouldn't care either way. Why couldn't Sheldon own an electrotype, not unheard of especially considering his expertise and history, imo it could go either way. The fact that it was never described as such means little considering the archaic past descriptions
Well, it’s been owned by a number of folks since Sheldon, though I suppose they along with the auction houses could have kept mum…
A bigger question would be, how was an elecrotype created, when there are no high grade specimens of 1795 cents with Obverse 6 in existence?
According to Sheldon, the first time it changed hands, it was given away. It later sold at auction for 5 figures years later.
A fair question. And the roughness of the incused date worries me as well. Will study the pictures on my monitor tomorrow.
Those were the days when you could find something like that in a junk box.
Any shots of the edge?
That ia fantastic piece of history. One I have never seen nor heard of. Great post and thank you for sharing.
Jim
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The 1795 Reeded Edge is an interesting coin. Here's a Heritage image showing the edge.:
Although this image shows that the coin is clearly something special, the edges of some others are less obvious, but that could be a function of wear and tear. Does anyone here know if the reed count is (or was) identical on all of the pieces?
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The more I look at it the less I like it.
Where are the denticles?
Why is LIBERTY so strong but the date so moth-eaten?
Look at the curl above 79, and the hair above that.
What is that roughness below and to the right of the hole? Is that an artifact of the hole punching? If this piece was carried as a pocket piece for years, why is it not worn off or at least smoothed down? I carried an 1864 Half Dollar damaged in The Great Chicago Fire for about 30 years, and I took two full grades off of it. This piece does not look as though it were carried as a pocket piece.
I like Dan Carr's theory that this is an electrotype, though perhaps we should also consider the possibility that it is just an obverse shell, electroplated very thickly. What is the weight? What is the thickness?
What does the edge look like?
TD
Mind Boggler: Try to guess a value on this!
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The obverse being incuse on the reverse SCREAMS electrolyte shell unless it is full weight.
I don't have too much to say at this point, just that I hope those of you who were doubting can give me the benefit of the doubt next time. I know what I'm doing. Holdered and pedigreed.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Nice post! What work did you do on it?
Thanks for posting the update.
I didn’t doubt it, and tried to rationalize why it was genuine.
But as I’m pretty much a nobody, it didn’t carry much weight 😆
Amazing piece! Im a big fan of brockage. This piece has got to be worth a fortune, holed and all
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Don't take it personally. The forum says no to everything. Even in a slab, the first thought is that it is a fake slab. The second thought is that it's a mechanical error.
This is a pretty fair assessment.
I sold a low grade but rare 93 Liberty Cap cent to a forum member a number of years ago, who promptly posted it on the forum. Whereupon most of the comments were derogatory and/or skeptical that it was genuine. MFeld stepped in and declared it looked genuine to him, which helped.
And then later PCGS did as well.
What does the edge look like?
I’m guessing it’s reeded….
Sheldon was the most despicable human being ever to be associated with US coins. For one, he despised Jews and was quite voluble about it. And he was a thief. He stole many large cents from a museum, replacing them with his own lesser coins. My friend Del Bland spent the last years of his life trying to clear up the garbled pedigrees.
Just my never-humble opinion.
yeah, that's much worse than pedophilia
I think you are taking it too personally. Questioning a coin and collecting information to support or deny it's authenticity is not an attack on you. PCGS determined it to be genuine, so let us know how they arrived at that conclusion. Do you have an edge image of this specific coin that you can share? Can you explain why some points on the coin appear gray or nickel in color as opposed to brown? Was an XRF preformed? If so, what were the results? Information is a good thing to have on a piece like this.
I think that asking serious questions, as opposed to just saying “It’s fake because I don’t like it!” IS giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Will study the True View pictures and see what I come up with.
Looks just like the McKinney example. Weak, virtually nonexistent in spots, strong in others.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Studied the True View pictures which immediately answered my question about the artifacts near the hole. Just simple very minor damage.
The lack of incused denticles on the brockaged side is still odd. However, when I looked at the other specimens of the S-79, especially the VG-10, I saw that there was apparently some horizontal misalignment between the two dies which caused the LIBERTY to be well struck and the date to be weakly struck, especially on the bottoms of the digits. (There is a corresponding weakness near the top of the VG-10 reverse, which supports the misaligned dies theory.)
This satisfies my question as to why the LIBERTY was so much stronger than the date on the brockage, since it must have been that way on the coin that indented the brockage, and I no longer have any doubts as to its authenticity.
It is incredible to me that such a rarity known for the edge has no edge view by PCGS...
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/49183982
The obverse die was only used on S-79’s. If the brockage is actually an electrotype, which example was it copied from?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
There are still days like this as someone recently found a cent struck on a gold coin in a junk box!
Was the dealer brain dead? Gold is dense for its volume. So is lead, but most dealers can tell the difference between lead and gold.
Not only that, it was at a coin show! Bet that dealer got a lot of visits afterwards!
Read more here:
https://minterrornews.com/news-7-28-22-ngc-certifies-1906-indian-cent-struck-on-mexico-5-pesos-gold-planchet.html
Given the provenance of the coin, I would guess that if it is an electrotype it would have been copied from a high grade piece some time ago. The original could be a current or unknown example prior to wear.
This piece is not an electrotype as we have established. It’s a VERY cool find and a VERY special coin!
is it supposed to have a big hole in it? I thought holes drilled into coins were frowned upon.
Probably my last update on this thread. Figured I'd share the slab photos.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Seems like everything ended quite well for you........so allow me to offer you the coveted & trademarked YOU SUCK award. Really 2 awards, one in finding it/acquiring it and one for putting up with us guys here on the forum
P.S. now that it is securely entombed in a slab you want have to wash your hands after holding Sheldon's pocket piece, I mean who knows where his hands have been
I'll have to politely decline. I'm merely handling it on behalf of a client for the firm. I wish it was mine, what a piece and what a story.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
You're declining to wash your hands?
I mean, I did get to hold this coin raw...
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Apparently without an xfr performed or the weight measured (on a holed coin!), or edge photos provided via Trueview, it’s still suspect.
Fortunately I doubt any of those are folks that were serious contenders for the coin anyway….
It's a bit of a shame to see such a VERY special piece and OP doesn't even know the weight. I don't understand why having some additional information on the piece is considered a bad thing. It's truly become a get it, slab it, done with it type of world. Even some of the parking lot find posts have more physical specifics than have been provided here.
Wouldn't some specs and additional edge pics be both interesting and important to have for a piece like this? I guess it's just not that important of a coin after all.
IMHO the TPG’s should automatically list the weights of significant pieces.