Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
Ok. So I'm confused. Is GC operating as a coin dealer simply because it auctions coins as opposed to retailing them from their inventory as others do?
@NJCoin said:
Nothing wrong with it, insofar as it legitimately pushes prices to where the house (and seller) believe it should be. Whereas money does not change hands when a seller buys their own coins (hence the word "shill"), when the house buys the item, a legitimate arm's length transaction between unrelated parties actually takes place. Who frowns on it, other than bidders looking for a below market deal?
Really? Nothing wrong with it? If you're buying there's a BIG problem. The auction site is pushing you to bid more after they failed to generate honest competing bidders so they can increase the fees that they make!
Yup. Maybe it's worth keeping in mind that they represent sellers, not buyers. The only "deals" you get are the ones they are willing to allow you to get.
To the extent they also run a coin business, you are competing with them for every lot, and that works to the sellers' advantage. Why would the affiliated coin dealer be any less legitimate or honest than every other dealer that bids in the auction?
When they bid, I'm sure it's not to increase their commission, although that is a happy side effect. The idea is to take the "deal" you would otherwise get for itself. And why shouldn't they?
Why does eBay have this policy? Shill bidding is unfair to buyers and it's illegal in many places in the world. We have this policy to discourage shill bidding and to make it clear what can happen when people don't follow these guidelines.
The auction houses probably all allow shill bidding by policy because Arizona and probably other states allow buyers to cancel purchases if it is not disclosed:
47-2328. Sale by auction
...
D. If the auctioneer knowingly receives a bid on the seller's behalf or the seller makes or procures such a bid, and notice has not been given that liberty for such bidding is reserved, the buyer may at his option avoid the sale or take the goods at the price of the last good faith bid prior to the completion of the sale. This subsection shall not apply to any bid at a forced sale.
Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
They are not all low dollar coins, but many are "low interest" (difficult to sell for a decent price at auction) coins. I have no problem with GC or any company selling their own inventory The problem is when they bid on what is being sold. We can agree to disagree.
Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
Ok. So I'm confused. Is GC operating as a coin dealer simply because it auctions coins as opposed to retailing them from their inventory as others do?
No. Dealers deal, and auction houses auction. Technically, yes, GC is acting as a dealer because it has accepted some coins on consignment that it is offering for sale, as any other dealer would. Very different from SB and HA, who have extensive inventories that they own and offer for resale to the public.
@NJCoin said:
Nothing wrong with it, insofar as it legitimately pushes prices to where the house (and seller) believe it should be. Whereas money does not change hands when a seller buys their own coins (hence the word "shill"), when the house buys the item, a legitimate arm's length transaction between unrelated parties actually takes place. Who frowns on it, other than bidders looking for a below market deal?
Really? Nothing wrong with it? If you're buying there's a BIG problem. The auction site is pushing you to bid more after they failed to generate honest competing bidders so they can increase the fees that they make!
Yup. Maybe it's worth keeping in mind that they represent sellers, not buyers. The only "deals" you get are the ones they are willing to allow you to get.
To the extent they also run a coin business, you are competing with them for every lot, and that works to the sellers' advantage. Why would the affiliated coin dealer be any less legitimate or honest than every other dealer that bids in the auction?
When they bid, I'm sure it's not to increase their commission, although that is a happy side effect. The idea is to take the "deal" you would otherwise get for itself. And why shouldn't they?
Why does eBay have this policy? Shill bidding is unfair to buyers and it's illegal in many places in the world. We have this policy to discourage shill bidding and to make it clear what can happen when people don't follow these guidelines.
The auction houses probably all allow shill bidding by policy because Arizona and probably other states allow buyers to cancel purchases if it is not disclosed:
47-2328. Sale by auction
...
D. If the auctioneer knowingly receives a bid on the seller's behalf or the seller makes or procures such a bid, and notice has not been given that liberty for such bidding is reserved, the buyer may at his option avoid the sale or take the goods at the price of the last good faith bid prior to the completion of the sale. This subsection shall not apply to any bid at a forced sale.
Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
They are not all low dollar coins, but many are "low interest" (difficult to sell for a decent price at auction) coins. I have no problem with GC or any company selling their own inventory The problem is when they bid on what is being sold. We can agree to disagree.
Sure, agree to disagree. But shill bidding is bidding on your own stuff. Not bidding in your own auction.
Sorry if you don't think it is "fair," but it is fully disclosed, and that makes it "fair." Regardless of how you want to define a "fair marketplace," as in real estate, the house's job is to get the best price for the seller.
Not the other way around, although that does not work to your advantage as a buyer. And that includes stepping in to bid themselves when it is in their interest to do so, rather than letting you have a deal on something other bidders might be sleeping on, or have no interest in.
Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
Ok. So I'm confused. Is GC operating as a coin dealer simply because it auctions coins as opposed to retailing them from their inventory as others do?
No. Dealers deal, and auction houses auction. Technically, yes, GC is acting as a dealer because it has accepted some coins on consignment that it is offering for sale, as any other dealer would. Very different from SB and HA, who have extensive inventories that they own and offer for resale to the public.
Though it might not be as extensive as SB or HA, GC does buy and sell their own inventory, so I was just trying to point out that all of the auction houses likely have similar policies and disclosures.
@DisneyFan- Also, what you see on their website isn’t everything that they do. Just like SB and HA have extensive wholesale networks, GC brokers deals that aren’t public. When I was doing more buying and selling on Facebook a few months ago, Ian was a fairly active buyer and I did a decent amount of business with him. Nothing crazy, but they certainly weren’t $100 coins. I never paid attention to see if they showed up in the auctions afterwards, but I invoiced them to GC and they would just mail a check.
Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
Ok. So I'm confused. Is GC operating as a coin dealer simply because it auctions coins as opposed to retailing them from their inventory as others do?
No. Dealers deal, and auction houses auction. Technically, yes, GC is acting as a dealer because it has accepted some coins on consignment that it is offering for sale, as any other dealer would. Very different from SB and HA, who have extensive inventories that they own and offer for resale to the public.
Though it might not be as extensive as SB or HA, GC does buy and sell their own inventory, so I was just trying to point out that all of the auction houses likely have similar policies and disclosures.
@DisneyFan- Also, what you see on their website isn’t everything that they do. Just like SB and HA have extensive wholesale networks, GC brokers deals that aren’t public. When I was doing more buying and selling on Facebook a few months ago, Ian was a fairly active buyer and I did a decent amount of business with him. Nothing crazy, but they certainly weren’t $100 coins. I never paid attention to see if they showed up in the auctions afterwards, but I invoiced them to GC and they would just mail a check.
I don't recall if it was on this forum or on MC but I recall not too long ago Ian specifically putting out an offer to buy many 1908 NM $20s (maybe 63/64 CAC requirement?)
@NJCoin said:
Then prepare to be shocked. There is nothing unethical about it, to the extent they do not already have an economic interest in the coin and want to buy it for their inventory. If you don't like it, stick to a company like GC that does not also run a coin dealer.
Quoted from their Conditions of Sale:
"Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates may bid for their own account at any auction. Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates may have information about any lot that is not known publicly, and Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates reserves the right to use such information, in a manner determined solely by them and for their benefit, without disclosing such information in the catalog, catalog description or at the auction. Bidder acknowledges and agrees that Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates are not required to pay a Buyer’s Premium, or other charges that other Bidders may be required to pay and may have access to information concerning the lots that is not otherwise available to the public. Any claimed conflict of interest or claimed competitive advantage resulting therefrom is expressly waived by all participants in the Auction Sale."
Wow, this seems to me a recipe for an SB associate to be able to manipulate auctions to their benefit. I mean, it actually states that they can have information about a lot and basically not disclose it to the public to benefit themselves! That would bother me, as a seller, that my coin or coins may not be given the full marketing potential it deserves because an auction house associate wants to purchase it/them for themselves.
Heritage has the right to bid on my consignment coins to them.
Stacks had the right to bid on my consignment coins to them (not consigning at the moment)
GC has the right to bid on my consignment coins to them, whether it’s written in their terms and conditions (which I hope it is) or not.
The concept that one wishes the auction company doesn’t win their material because the auction company has an advantage over others (or for anny other reason) is entirely misguided. I don’t care if the auction companies outbid every other participant in the world and win every single consigned coin of mine that I consign.
Now, tell me why I am wrong to think this way?
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
Heritage has the right to bid on my consignment coins to them.
Stacks had the right to bid on my consignment coins to them (not consigning at the moment)
GC has the right to bid on my consignment coins to them, whether it’s written in their terms and conditions (which I hope it is) or not.
The concept that one wishes the auction company doesn’t win their material because the auction company has an advantage over others (or for anny other reason) is entirely misguided. I don’t care if the auction companies outbid every other participant in the world and win every single consigned coin of mine that I consign.
Now, tell me why I am wrong to think this way?
It's unfair to buyers because the platform pay's no buyer premium which sucks to compete against, and in the case of a reserve auction where the reserve is not published, they know the reserve and have information that other buyers do not.
For sellers, this creates a perverse incentive to fail to market or promote the item or otherwise limit or inhibit bidding (for example, crappy pictures) so that the auction house can acquire the piece for less.
IMO auction houses that may bid on their own lots have a potential conflict of interest. No question. I suppose we must rely on the integrity of the auction house not to abuse their position.
Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
Ok. So I'm confused. Is GC operating as a coin dealer simply because it auctions coins as opposed to retailing them from their inventory as others do?
No. Dealers deal, and auction houses auction. Technically, yes, GC is acting as a dealer because it has accepted some coins on consignment that it is offering for sale, as any other dealer would. Very different from SB and HA, who have extensive inventories that they own and offer for resale to the public.
Though it might not be as extensive as SB or HA, GC does buy and sell their own inventory, so I was just trying to point out that all of the auction houses likely have similar policies and disclosures.
@DisneyFan- Also, what you see on their website isn’t everything that they do. Just like SB and HA have extensive wholesale networks, GC brokers deals that aren’t public. When I was doing more buying and selling on Facebook a few months ago, Ian was a fairly active buyer and I did a decent amount of business with him. Nothing crazy, but they certainly weren’t $100 coins. I never paid attention to see if they showed up in the auctions afterwards, but I invoiced them to GC and they would just mail a check.
Fair enough. But GC does not have a similar disclosure, so I sure hope they are not bidding in their own auctions.
Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
Ok. So I'm confused. Is GC operating as a coin dealer simply because it auctions coins as opposed to retailing them from their inventory as others do?
No. Dealers deal, and auction houses auction. Technically, yes, GC is acting as a dealer because it has accepted some coins on consignment that it is offering for sale, as any other dealer would. Very different from SB and HA, who have extensive inventories that they own and offer for resale to the public.
Though it might not be as extensive as SB or HA, GC does buy and sell their own inventory, so I was just trying to point out that all of the auction houses likely have similar policies and disclosures.
@DisneyFan- Also, what you see on their website isn’t everything that they do. Just like SB and HA have extensive wholesale networks, GC brokers deals that aren’t public. When I was doing more buying and selling on Facebook a few months ago, Ian was a fairly active buyer and I did a decent amount of business with him. Nothing crazy, but they certainly weren’t $100 coins. I never paid attention to see if they showed up in the auctions afterwards, but I invoiced them to GC and they would just mail a check.
Having them show up in the auctions would be not a problem. And, in any event, the possibility is fully disclosed. OTOH, if they then bid on those items ....
@wondercoin said:
ProofCollection: It’s been going on the way I described for decades now (maybe a century?) Has this harmed the auctions yet?
I'm sure there are plenty of instances where this has caused byers to pay more and sellers to receive less, so yes unquestionably there has been harm done. Does it mean "the auctions" are in such a bad state that they are unfair or can't be trusted? Overall I would say no. But anything that denigrates the integrity or just the appearance of integrity should be avoided or diminished rather than accepted, approved, and encouraged.
Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
Ok. So I'm confused. Is GC operating as a coin dealer simply because it auctions coins as opposed to retailing them from their inventory as others do?
@wondercoin said:
Heritage has the right to bid on my consignment coins to them.
Stacks had the right to bid on my consignment coins to them (not consigning at the moment)
GC has the right to bid on my consignment coins to them, whether it’s written in their terms and conditions (which I hope it is) or not.
The concept that one wishes the auction company doesn’t win their material because the auction company has an advantage over others (or for anny other reason) is entirely misguided. I don’t care if the auction companies outbid every other participant in the world and win every single consigned coin of mine that I consign.
Now, tell me why I am wrong to think this way?
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
If your position is that it’s not unfair or unethical for the auction houses to participate in their own auctions, thats one thing, but the notion that they don’t have an advantage over buyers is absurd imo. I may be misinterpreting your comment but that’s what it sounded like to me.
Here is the stacks disclosure as referenced by @NJCoin:
"Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates may bid for their own account at any auction. Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates may have information about any lot that is not known publicly, and Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates reserves the right to use such information, in a manner determined solely by them and for their benefit, without disclosing such information in the catalog, catalog description or at the auction. Bidder acknowledges and agrees that Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates are not required to pay a Buyer’s Premium, or other charges that other Bidders may be required to pay and may have access to information concerning the lots that is not otherwise available to the public. Any claimed conflict of interest or claimed competitive advantage resulting therefrom is expressly waived by all participants in the Auction Sale."
Again, as a business owner I don’t hold them in contempt for running a lucrative business, but I’m not willing to pretend as if they don’t have advantageous position.
ProofCollection…. Meaning what exactly? Demanding the auction companies reverse their century old practices? Do you personally make that demand by (you) refusing to send coins to the auctions any longer now that you discovered what has been in the written terms and conditions for possibly up to 100 years now?
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
Ok. So I'm confused. Is GC operating as a coin dealer simply because it auctions coins as opposed to retailing them from their inventory as others do?
No. Dealers deal, and auction houses auction. Technically, yes, GC is acting as a dealer because it has accepted some coins on consignment that it is offering for sale, as any other dealer would. Very different from SB and HA, who have extensive inventories that they own and offer for resale to the public.
Though it might not be as extensive as SB or HA, GC does buy and sell their own inventory, so I was just trying to point out that all of the auction houses likely have similar policies and disclosures.
@DisneyFan- Also, what you see on their website isn’t everything that they do. Just like SB and HA have extensive wholesale networks, GC brokers deals that aren’t public. When I was doing more buying and selling on Facebook a few months ago, Ian was a fairly active buyer and I did a decent amount of business with him. Nothing crazy, but they certainly weren’t $100 coins. I never paid attention to see if they showed up in the auctions afterwards, but I invoiced them to GC and they would just mail a check.
Having them show up in the auctions would be not a problem. And, in any event, the possibility is fully disclosed. OTOH, if they then bid on those items ....
Let me clarify. I wasn’t implying that it was a problem, I was just saying that I wasn’t sure if it was wholesale material or if they were just buying to feed the auctions. Apologies for not being clear, but yes either way it would not be an issue. Ian is a stand up guy and I hold GreatCollections in high regard with respect to integrity and ethics.
@jackpine20 said:
To remove stickers of any kind, I have experienced great results using an overnight application of peanut butter. Then a combination of my fingernail and a microfiber cloth and glass cleaner (or eyeglass cleaner).
Always fun when you can come here and learn something new. Thanks!
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@jackpine20 said:
To remove stickers of any kind, I have experienced great results using an overnight application of peanut butter. Then a combination of my fingernail and a microfiber cloth and glass cleaner (or eyeglass cleaner).
Always fun when you can come here and learn something new. Thanks!
Andy, in case you didn’t already know this either, peanut butter is also great at removing gum from hair. Of course, that isn’t likely to be of much use to either of us.😀
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jackpine20 said:
To remove stickers of any kind, I have experienced great results using an overnight application of peanut butter. Then a combination of my fingernail and a microfiber cloth and glass cleaner (or eyeglass cleaner).
Always fun when you can come here and learn something new. Thanks!
Andy, in case you didn’t already know this either, peanut butter is also great at removing gum from hair. Of course, that isn’t likely to be of much use to either of us.😀
Actually, it's very useful! I have a beard.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@wondercoin said:
ProofCollection…. Meaning what exactly? Demanding the auction companies reverse their century old practices? Do you personally make that demand by (you) refusing to send coins to the auctions any longer now that you discovered what has been in the written terms and conditions for possibly up to 100 years now?
If I ran an auction house, in order to project the highest ethical standards I would prohibit insiders from bidding on auctions.
Knowing that this occurs on other platforms will not stop me from using them or participating because we have no real choice. The coins we want are where they are, and if you want the coins there are no other real options, especially with the rarer and more hard to find items.
The only thing I will change as a result of this thread is that I will not send any stickered coins to GC unless the sticker removal policy changes.
@jackpine20 said:
To remove stickers of any kind, I have experienced great results using an overnight application of peanut butter. Then a combination of my fingernail and a microfiber cloth and glass cleaner (or eyeglass cleaner).
Always fun when you can come here and learn something new. Thanks!
Andy, in case you didn’t already know this either, peanut butter is also great at removing gum from hair. Of course, that isn’t likely to be of much use to either of us.😀
Actually, it's very useful! I have a beard.
So do I, currently and you’re welcome.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
‘’If your position is that it’s not unfair or unethical for the auction houses to participate in their own auctions, thats one thing, but the notion that they don’t have an advantage over buyers is absurd imo. I may be misinterpreting your comment but that’s what it sounded like to me.’’
D Dan: When I sign the written terms and conditions that have been fully disclosed to me (and ship the auction company my coins), I have accepted these terms - whether they are fair, unfair, ethical or unethical. We agree on this - yes? At that point, I welcome all bids from anyone permitted to bid INCLUDING THE AUCTION HOUSE - yes? I’m not focused on whether they have an advantage. I only want the maximum price realized on my consigned coins - right? To be clear - I said: “The concept that one wishes the auction company doesn’t win their material because the auction company has an advantage over others (or for any other reason) is entirely misguided.” The reason it is misguided is because I am bound to the terms and conditions I agreed to. The auction company, advantage or no advantage, has the right to bid and the “more proper bids the merrier” on my consignment lots. For what it’s worth, I think the auction company has an “advantage” over the vast majority of other bidders. But, if they end up being the high bidder on every one of my coins, I did better than if they didn’t bid on the coins at all - true?
Again, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
‘’If your position is that it’s not unfair or unethical for the auction houses to participate in their own auctions, thats one thing, but the notion that they don’t have an advantage over buyers is absurd imo. I may be misinterpreting your comment but that’s what it sounded like to me.’’
D Dan: When I sign the written terms and conditions that have been fully disclosed to me (and ship the auction company my coins), I have accepted these terms - whether they are fair, unfair, ethical or unethical. We agree on this - yes? At that point, I welcome all bids from anyone permitted to bid INCLUDING THE AUCTION HOUSE - yes? I’m not focused on whether they have an advantage. I only want the maximum price realized on my consigned coins - right? To be clear - I said: “The concept that one wishes the auction company doesn’t win their material because the auction company has an advantage over others (or for any other reason) is entirely misguided.” The reason it is misguided is because I am bound to the terms and conditions I agreed to. The auction company, advantage or no advantage, has the right to bid and the “more proper bids the merrier” on my consignment lots. For what it’s worth, I think the auction company has an “advantage” over the vast majority of other bidders. But, if they end up being the high bidder on every one of my coins, I did better than if they didn’t bid on the coins at all - true?
If the auction house is bidding, how do you know they are doing everything they can to sell and market the coin and encourage competing bids?
@wondercoin said:
‘’If your position is that it’s not unfair or unethical for the auction houses to participate in their own auctions, thats one thing, but the notion that they don’t have an advantage over buyers is absurd imo. I may be misinterpreting your comment but that’s what it sounded like to me.’’
D Dan: When I sign the written terms and conditions that have been fully disclosed to me (and ship the auction company my coins), I have accepted these terms - whether they are fair, unfair, ethical or unethical. We agree on this - yes? At that point, I welcome all bids from anyone permitted to bid INCLUDING THE AUCTION HOUSE - yes? I’m not focused on whether they have an advantage. I only want the maximum price realized on my consigned coins - right? To be clear - I said: “The concept that one wishes the auction company doesn’t win their material because the auction company has an advantage over others (or for any other reason) is entirely misguided.” The reason it is misguided is because I am bound to the terms and conditions I agreed to. The auction company, advantage or no advantage, has the right to bid and the “more proper bids the merrier” on my consignment lots. For what it’s worth, I think the auction company has an “advantage” over the vast majority of other bidders. But, if they end up being the high bidder on every one of my coins, I did better than if they didn’t bid on the coins at all - true?
If the auction house is bidding, how do you know they are doing everything they can to sell and market the coin and encourage competing bids?
Good point, theoretically. But in practice, that seems to be an extraordinarily unusual problem. Edited to add that I can only think of one time I saw that happen, it was not in the US, and it was a completely egregious "set up". (Sorry, no details will be provided, even by PM.)
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
‘’If the auction house is bidding, how do you know they are doing everything they can to sell and market the coin and encourage competing bids?’’
ProofCollection- First, how do you know this if they are not bidding?
Life is full of conflicts of interest. The key is full disclosure of the conflict, and good faith and fair dealing with the consignor by the auction company. Nothing less.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I would be shocked if SB was bidding up coins in their own auctions, grossly unethical as @ProofCollection mentioned, but actively making markets outside of the SB auction, no different than CAC making a market, is totally appropriate. Quote from the CMQ website:
CMQ stickered coins are widely recognized as being “premium quality” within the rare coin market, resulting in impressive prices when compared with similarly graded non-stickered coins. Furthermore, Stack’s Bowers Galleries’ and David Hall Rare Coins’ trading departments actively make markets in all CMQ stickered coins, providing added demand and liquidity.
Then prepare to be shocked. There is nothing unethical about it, to the extent they do not already have an economic interest in the coin and want to buy it for their inventory. If you don't like it, stick to a company like GC that does not also run a coin dealer.
Quoted from their Conditions of Sale:
"Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates may bid for their own account at any auction. Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates may have information about any lot that is not known publicly, and Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates reserves the right to use such information, in a manner determined solely by them and for their benefit, without disclosing such information in the catalog, catalog description or at the auction. Bidder acknowledges and agrees that Stack’s Bowers and its affiliates are not required to pay a Buyer’s Premium, or other charges that other Bidders may be required to pay and may have access to information concerning the lots that is not otherwise available to the public. Any claimed conflict of interest or claimed competitive advantage resulting therefrom is expressly waived by all participants in the Auction Sale."
Ok, not shocked and great for the consignors, but definitely disappointed as a bidder. I would agree it is not unethical because it is disclosed in their T&C. I do stand by my comment that it would be unethical if not disclosed.
@wondercoin said:
For what it’s worth, I think the auction company has an “advantage” over the vast majority of other bidders. But, if they end up being the high bidder on every one of my coins, I did better than if they didn’t bid on the coins at all - true?
There's a term in finance called "adverse selection" and on Wall Street there's also a concept of a Chinese Wall.
The problem is auction participants don't know:
1- how many times, as a buyer, that the auction house was the underbidder, thus costing them money
2- how many times, as a buyer, that the auction house sniped a choice lot, causing them to only win the trap coins.
3- how many times, as a seller, that their coin realized a horrifically low price because all the potential buyers were afraid of both (1) and (2) above.
That is called adverse selection.
The second issue is the Chinese Wall. On Wall Street, allegedly the investment banking side is supposed to be kept at arms length from the research and trading sides. This is why analysts are supposed to certify that an investment opinion is their own, rather than the opinion of an investment banker trying to sell the stock equivalent of dreck and widgets.
With auction houses, participants don't truly know how much information the auction house uses to their benefit. Are they looking not just at the bids, but at the names and collections of the bidders? This is why sophisticated buyers often use representation. Representation denies auction houses knowledge of who the true end bidder is, thereby making it harder for the auction house to manipulate the outcome. Representation also prevents buyers from acting on their own worst impulses, if the buyer happens to have any bad impulses.
@ianrussell said:
I guess this is the wrong thread to announce the launch of the GC sticker?
🤔
Actual size, right?
Maybe someone should start a poll to determine if this sticker is large enough.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@ianrussell said:
I guess this is the wrong thread to announce the launch of the GC sticker?
🤔
Actual size, right?
Maybe someone should start a poll to determine if this sticker is large enough.
If it wraps around the entire slab then it is large enough.
This also eliminates the need to scrape off other stickers since they are no longer visible. No need to see the coin either since you now know it has been approved. Makes collecting easier. The downside is that it does nothing to prevent peanut butter from ending up in beards...yet.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I gotta say, I know a lot of people think this topic has become cumbersome and unwieldy, but it sure has produced some vigorous debate and healthy conversation. It’s this kind of argument that serves to aid our field and perhaps yield some positive changes and clarifications.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
@yspsales said:
Why again should I care an auction house was bidding on an item that I consigned?
Totally lost on me why I would not want the deepest pockets in the room finding value in my item.
At the risk of repeating myself, If the auction house is bidding, how do you know they are doing everything they can to sell and market the coin and encourage competing bids (working against themselves) and taking the best pictures?
@NJCoin said:
Nothing wrong with it, insofar as it legitimately pushes prices to where the house (and seller) believe it should be. Whereas money does not change hands when a seller buys their own coins (hence the word "shill"), when the house buys the item, a legitimate arm's length transaction between unrelated parties actually takes place. Who frowns on it, other than bidders looking for a below market deal?
Really? Nothing wrong with it? If you're buying there's a BIG problem. The auction site is pushing you to bid more after they failed to generate honest competing bidders so they can increase the fees that they make!
Yup. Maybe it's worth keeping in mind that they represent sellers, not buyers. The only "deals" you get are the ones they are willing to allow you to get.
To the extent they also run a coin business, you are competing with them for every lot, and that works to the sellers' advantage. Why would the affiliated coin dealer be any less legitimate or honest than every other dealer that bids in the auction?
When they bid, I'm sure it's not to increase their commission, although that is a happy side effect. The idea is to take the "deal" you would otherwise get for itself. And why shouldn't they?
Why does eBay have this policy? Shill bidding is unfair to buyers and it's illegal in many places in the world. We have this policy to discourage shill bidding and to make it clear what can happen when people don't follow these guidelines.
The auction houses probably all allow shill bidding by policy because Arizona and probably other states allow buyers to cancel purchases if it is not disclosed:
47-2328. Sale by auction
...
D. If the auctioneer knowingly receives a bid on the seller's behalf or the seller makes or procures such a bid, and notice has not been given that liberty for such bidding is reserved, the buyer may at his option avoid the sale or take the goods at the price of the last good faith bid prior to the completion of the sale. This subsection shall not apply to any bid at a forced sale.
Generally agree with your comment except for this small correction. GC does operate as a coin dealer and I wouldn’t be surprised if their policy on internal auction participation mirrors Stacks or HA.
Are you referring to GC's current listing of 282 Buy Now Coins which includes 23 Morgan Dollars and 50 America the Beautiful coins?
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
They are not all low dollar coins, but many are "low interest" (difficult to sell for a decent price at auction) coins. I have no problem with GC or any company selling their own inventory The problem is when they bid on what is being sold. We can agree to disagree.
Sure, agree to disagree. But shill bidding is bidding on your own stuff. Not bidding in your own auction.
Sorry if you don't think it is "fair," but it is fully disclosed, and that makes it "fair." Regardless of how you want to define a "fair marketplace," as in real estate, the house's job is to get the best price for the seller.
Not the other way around, although that does not work to your advantage as a buyer. And that includes stepping in to bid themselves when it is in their interest to do so, rather than letting you have a deal on something other bidders might be sleeping on, or have no interest in.
Where this could go sideways is if an auction house a) had the ability to bid and b) had knowledge of max bid levels of participants that placed those bids ahead of the live auction. At that point they could in theory act as a shill bidder and create competition that might not otherwise exist to run up legitimate bids without having to ever take on any risk of purchasing the item.
Where this could go sideways is if an auction house a) had the ability to bid and b) had knowledge of max bid levels of participants that placed those bids ahead of the live auction. At that point they could in theory act as a shill bidder and create competition that might not otherwise exist to run up legitimate bids without having to ever take on any risk of purchasing the item.
That's where they put their reputations on the line and don't do it.
@yspsales said:
Why again should I care an auction house was bidding on an item that I consigned?
Totally lost on me why I would not want the deepest pockets in the room finding value in my item.
At the risk of repeating myself, If the auction house is bidding, how do you know they are doing everything they can to sell and market the coin and encourage competing bids (working against themselves) and taking the best pictures?
Thank you... had not read thru all the replies.
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If you're a consignor, the more the merrier, I suppose... but if you're a competing bidder, you always wonder how one knows whether the house is bidding to legitimately own the item or just to increase the bottom line. And perhaps it's been done for 100 years (actually quite a bit longer) in various auctions, but just because something's been done for a long time and (for some folks at least) considered an accepted part of a business model doesn't necessarily make it right or fair. The Civil War was fought in part over a practice that was a previously accepted part of a business model... just saying.
‘’If the auction house is bidding, how do you know they are doing everything they can to sell and market the coin and encourage competing bids?’’
ProofCollection- First, how do you know this if they are not bidding?
Life is full of conflicts of interest. The key is full disclosure of the conflict, and good faith and fair dealing with the consignor by the auction company. Nothing less.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
The site says those were consigned. Consigned means GC doesn't own them.
Those coins are apparently mostly simply too low value to waste time trying to auction them. $8, $10, $20, $30 etc. As for the others, the seller probably just wants what they want, so rather than repeatedly list them at a reserve that won't be met, they are listed at a Buy Now price, waiting to see if anyone bites.
This overblown “issue” reminds me of a very old joke that can’t be repeated here.
In part: “…..but scrape off one little sticker…”
Ok. So I'm confused. Is GC operating as a coin dealer simply because it auctions coins as opposed to retailing them from their inventory as others do?
Sure they represent sellers but they have a duty to provide a fair market place. Here's what the ebay says:
https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-policies/selling-practices-policy/shill-bidding-policy?id=4353
The auction houses probably all allow shill bidding by policy because Arizona and probably other states allow buyers to cancel purchases if it is not disclosed:
.
They are not all low dollar coins, but many are "low interest" (difficult to sell for a decent price at auction) coins. I have no problem with GC or any company selling their own inventory The problem is when they bid on what is being sold. We can agree to disagree.
No. Dealers deal, and auction houses auction. Technically, yes, GC is acting as a dealer because it has accepted some coins on consignment that it is offering for sale, as any other dealer would. Very different from SB and HA, who have extensive inventories that they own and offer for resale to the public.
Sure, agree to disagree. But shill bidding is bidding on your own stuff. Not bidding in your own auction.
Sorry if you don't think it is "fair," but it is fully disclosed, and that makes it "fair." Regardless of how you want to define a "fair marketplace," as in real estate, the house's job is to get the best price for the seller.
Not the other way around, although that does not work to your advantage as a buyer. And that includes stepping in to bid themselves when it is in their interest to do so, rather than letting you have a deal on something other bidders might be sleeping on, or have no interest in.
This thread has been hijacked.
Though it might not be as extensive as SB or HA, GC does buy and sell their own inventory, so I was just trying to point out that all of the auction houses likely have similar policies and disclosures.
@DisneyFan- Also, what you see on their website isn’t everything that they do. Just like SB and HA have extensive wholesale networks, GC brokers deals that aren’t public. When I was doing more buying and selling on Facebook a few months ago, Ian was a fairly active buyer and I did a decent amount of business with him. Nothing crazy, but they certainly weren’t $100 coins. I never paid attention to see if they showed up in the auctions afterwards, but I invoiced them to GC and they would just mail a check.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
I don't recall if it was on this forum or on MC but I recall not too long ago Ian specifically putting out an offer to buy many 1908 NM $20s (maybe 63/64 CAC requirement?)
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Wow, this seems to me a recipe for an SB associate to be able to manipulate auctions to their benefit. I mean, it actually states that they can have information about a lot and basically not disclose it to the public to benefit themselves! That would bother me, as a seller, that my coin or coins may not be given the full marketing potential it deserves because an auction house associate wants to purchase it/them for themselves.
My Original Song Written to my late wife-"Plus other original music by me"
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I still think that the post of the year is the quote from the old guy at the coin shop, who said:
“If I want stickers, then I’ll just buy bananas!” LMAO!!
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
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Heritage has the right to bid on my consignment coins to them.
Stacks had the right to bid on my consignment coins to them (not consigning at the moment)
GC has the right to bid on my consignment coins to them, whether it’s written in their terms and conditions (which I hope it is) or not.
The concept that one wishes the auction company doesn’t win their material because the auction company has an advantage over others (or for anny other reason) is entirely misguided. I don’t care if the auction companies outbid every other participant in the world and win every single consigned coin of mine that I consign.
Now, tell me why I am wrong to think this way?
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
It's unfair to buyers because the platform pay's no buyer premium which sucks to compete against, and in the case of a reserve auction where the reserve is not published, they know the reserve and have information that other buyers do not.
For sellers, this creates a perverse incentive to fail to market or promote the item or otherwise limit or inhibit bidding (for example, crappy pictures) so that the auction house can acquire the piece for less.
IMO auction houses that may bid on their own lots have a potential conflict of interest. No question. I suppose we must rely on the integrity of the auction house not to abuse their position.
ProofCollection: It’s been going on the way I described for decades now (maybe a century?) Has this harmed the auctions yet?
Wondercoin.
It sure has. OTOH, the sticker removal really has run its course.
Fair enough. But GC does not have a similar disclosure, so I sure hope they are not bidding in their own auctions.
Having them show up in the auctions would be not a problem. And, in any event, the possibility is fully disclosed. OTOH, if they then bid on those items ....
I'm sure there are plenty of instances where this has caused byers to pay more and sellers to receive less, so yes unquestionably there has been harm done. Does it mean "the auctions" are in such a bad state that they are unfair or can't be trusted? Overall I would say no. But anything that denigrates the integrity or just the appearance of integrity should be avoided or diminished rather than accepted, approved, and encouraged.
If your position is that it’s not unfair or unethical for the auction houses to participate in their own auctions, thats one thing, but the notion that they don’t have an advantage over buyers is absurd imo. I may be misinterpreting your comment but that’s what it sounded like to me.
Here is the stacks disclosure as referenced by @NJCoin:
Again, as a business owner I don’t hold them in contempt for running a lucrative business, but I’m not willing to pretend as if they don’t have advantageous position.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
ProofCollection…. Meaning what exactly? Demanding the auction companies reverse their century old practices? Do you personally make that demand by (you) refusing to send coins to the auctions any longer now that you discovered what has been in the written terms and conditions for possibly up to 100 years now?
Wondercoin.
Let me clarify. I wasn’t implying that it was a problem, I was just saying that I wasn’t sure if it was wholesale material or if they were just buying to feed the auctions. Apologies for not being clear, but yes either way it would not be an issue. Ian is a stand up guy and I hold GreatCollections in high regard with respect to integrity and ethics.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
Always fun when you can come here and learn something new. Thanks!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Andy, in case you didn’t already know this either, peanut butter is also great at removing gum from hair. Of course, that isn’t likely to be of much use to either of us.😀
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Actually, it's very useful! I have a beard.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If I ran an auction house, in order to project the highest ethical standards I would prohibit insiders from bidding on auctions.
Knowing that this occurs on other platforms will not stop me from using them or participating because we have no real choice. The coins we want are where they are, and if you want the coins there are no other real options, especially with the rarer and more hard to find items.
The only thing I will change as a result of this thread is that I will not send any stickered coins to GC unless the sticker removal policy changes.
So do I, currently and you’re welcome.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
‘’If your position is that it’s not unfair or unethical for the auction houses to participate in their own auctions, thats one thing, but the notion that they don’t have an advantage over buyers is absurd imo. I may be misinterpreting your comment but that’s what it sounded like to me.’’
D Dan: When I sign the written terms and conditions that have been fully disclosed to me (and ship the auction company my coins), I have accepted these terms - whether they are fair, unfair, ethical or unethical. We agree on this - yes? At that point, I welcome all bids from anyone permitted to bid INCLUDING THE AUCTION HOUSE - yes? I’m not focused on whether they have an advantage. I only want the maximum price realized on my consigned coins - right? To be clear - I said: “The concept that one wishes the auction company doesn’t win their material because the auction company has an advantage over others (or for any other reason) is entirely misguided.” The reason it is misguided is because I am bound to the terms and conditions I agreed to. The auction company, advantage or no advantage, has the right to bid and the “more proper bids the merrier” on my consignment lots. For what it’s worth, I think the auction company has an “advantage” over the vast majority of other bidders. But, if they end up being the high bidder on every one of my coins, I did better than if they didn’t bid on the coins at all - true?
Again, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Oh man, look what I missed this week, but that is POTD material right there Ian
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
If the auction house is bidding, how do you know they are doing everything they can to sell and market the coin and encourage competing bids?
Good point, theoretically. But in practice, that seems to be an extraordinarily unusual problem. Edited to add that I can only think of one time I saw that happen, it was not in the US, and it was a completely egregious "set up". (Sorry, no details will be provided, even by PM.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
‘’If the auction house is bidding, how do you know they are doing everything they can to sell and market the coin and encourage competing bids?’’
ProofCollection- First, how do you know this if they are not bidding?
Life is full of conflicts of interest. The key is full disclosure of the conflict, and good faith and fair dealing with the consignor by the auction company. Nothing less.
Wondercoin.
Ok, not shocked and great for the consignors, but definitely disappointed as a bidder. I would agree it is not unethical because it is disclosed in their T&C. I do stand by my comment that it would be unethical if not disclosed.
All the auction houses have fun stuff if you read the T&C's.
Goldberg;
Legend;
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
There's a term in finance called "adverse selection" and on Wall Street there's also a concept of a Chinese Wall.
The problem is auction participants don't know:
1- how many times, as a buyer, that the auction house was the underbidder, thus costing them money
2- how many times, as a buyer, that the auction house sniped a choice lot, causing them to only win the trap coins.
3- how many times, as a seller, that their coin realized a horrifically low price because all the potential buyers were afraid of both (1) and (2) above.
That is called adverse selection.
The second issue is the Chinese Wall. On Wall Street, allegedly the investment banking side is supposed to be kept at arms length from the research and trading sides. This is why analysts are supposed to certify that an investment opinion is their own, rather than the opinion of an investment banker trying to sell the stock equivalent of dreck and widgets.
With auction houses, participants don't truly know how much information the auction house uses to their benefit. Are they looking not just at the bids, but at the names and collections of the bidders? This is why sophisticated buyers often use representation. Representation denies auction houses knowledge of who the true end bidder is, thereby making it harder for the auction house to manipulate the outcome. Representation also prevents buyers from acting on their own worst impulses, if the buyer happens to have any bad impulses.
.
Maybe someone should start a poll to determine if this sticker is large enough.
‘’That is called adverse selection.’’
Ah yes, the problem of “lemons”! Good to see you posting HFTD.
Wondercoin.
If it wraps around the entire slab then it is large enough.
This also eliminates the need to scrape off other stickers since they are no longer visible. No need to see the coin either since you now know it has been approved. Makes collecting easier. The downside is that it does nothing to prevent peanut butter from ending up in beards...yet.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
After sussing out this thread I now think it is kind of low-key in violation of Rule #4.
peacockcoins
Given the demographics of the board, I'm glad it's not rule 34😅😉
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
I gotta say, I know a lot of people think this topic has become cumbersome and unwieldy, but it sure has produced some vigorous debate and healthy conversation. It’s this kind of argument that serves to aid our field and perhaps yield some positive changes and clarifications.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Happy 23,000.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Why again should I care an auction house was bidding on an item that I consigned?
Totally lost on me why I would not want the deepest pockets in the room finding value in my item.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
At the risk of repeating myself, If the auction house is bidding, how do you know they are doing everything they can to sell and market the coin and encourage competing bids (working against themselves) and taking the best pictures?
Where this could go sideways is if an auction house a) had the ability to bid and b) had knowledge of max bid levels of participants that placed those bids ahead of the live auction. At that point they could in theory act as a shill bidder and create competition that might not otherwise exist to run up legitimate bids without having to ever take on any risk of purchasing the item.
That's where they put their reputations on the line and don't do it.
Gee, this board is more fun than buying coins!
Thank you... had not read thru all the replies.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
If you're a consignor, the more the merrier, I suppose... but if you're a competing bidder, you always wonder how one knows whether the house is bidding to legitimately own the item or just to increase the bottom line. And perhaps it's been done for 100 years (actually quite a bit longer) in various auctions, but just because something's been done for a long time and (for some folks at least) considered an accepted part of a business model doesn't necessarily make it right or fair. The Civil War was fought in part over a practice that was a previously accepted part of a business model... just saying.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
And at the risk of repeating myself…
‘’If the auction house is bidding, how do you know they are doing everything they can to sell and market the coin and encourage competing bids?’’
ProofCollection- First, how do you know this if they are not bidding?
Life is full of conflicts of interest. The key is full disclosure of the conflict, and good faith and fair dealing with the consignor by the auction company. Nothing less.
Wondercoin.