Please post pictures of the coin when you get it back; is this a coin that is truly environmentally damaged after grading as a gem or a mystery situation where it is unknown whether the coin could be conserved or not? An MS63 version of the Grant Star is worth a little over $2K. Btw, "slander" is dishonest accusations, while defamation can be based on the actual events. My guess is the truth lies somewhere between what the dealer and customer is claiming. How sad that a coin situation once again is resulting in such rancor and division.
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
@logger7 said:
Please post pictures of the coin when you get it back; is this a coin that is truly environmentally damaged after grading as a gem or a mystery situation where it is unknown whether the coin could be conserved or not? An MS63 version of the Grant Star is worth a little over $2K. Btw, "slander" is dishonest accusations, while defamation can be based on the actual events. My guess is the truth lies somewhere between what the dealer and customer is claiming. How sad that a coin situation once again is resulting in such rancor and division.
The coin is supposedly going back to the OP’s father (who owns it), not the OP. So he might not be able to post pictures, even if he wants to. And it was stated by the dealer that PCGS already declined to conserve the coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jdillane said:
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
The dealer responded... Those are very unnecessary comments, like others in this thread.
Definitely a lack of communication between the owner, OP, and the dealer.
I say everyone put away the pitchforks and let the owner/dealer work this out privately like it should have been.
@jdillane said:
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
The chains have already been moved and it sounds like the coin’s owner should have it back next week. None of the acts that came to your mind are applicable in this case. It would have been better to have read through the thread before throwing out such words.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@logger7 said:
Please post pictures of the coin when you get it back; is this a coin that is truly environmentally damaged after grading as a gem or a mystery situation where it is unknown whether the coin could be conserved or not? An MS63 version of the Grant Star is worth a little over $2K. Btw, "slander" is dishonest accusations, while defamation can be based on the actual events. My guess is the truth lies somewhere between what the dealer and customer is claiming. How sad that a coin situation once again is resulting in such rancor and division.
The coin is supposedly going back to the OP’s father (who owns it), not the OP. So he might not be able to post pictures, even if he wants to. And it was stated by the dealer that PCGS already declined to conserve the coin.
Furthermore the OP has already stated he won’t be posting to this thread.
@jdillane said:
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
The dealer responded... Those are very unnecessary comments, like others in this thread.
Definitely a lack of communication between the owner, OP, and the dealer.
I say everyone put away the pitchforks and let the owner/dealer work this out privately like it should have been.
It's been an interesting thread. Definitely sounds like better communication could have diffused the situation before it got to this point.
@jdillane said:
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
@jdillane said:
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
The dealer responded... Those are very unnecessary comments, like others in this thread.
Definitely a lack of communication between the owner, OP, and the dealer.
I say everyone put away the pitchforks and let the owner/dealer work this out privately like it should have been.
Actually, I'm not sure the dealer and the owner had such a communication problem. They appear to socialize regularly.
It seems more like the OP and his sister were upset more than the owner of the coin.
Yes, interesting indeed to see how this thread progressed.....
There have been many similar threads over the years, usually starting with a recitation of a supposed wrong. One side is presented, people jump on the bandwagon, pitchforks and torches are gathered, and then, usually, eventually, the other side gets out.
Almost 100% of the time, my opinion of the situation changes once the other side is presented. Sometimes it changes a little, and sometimes a lot. In this case, it changed quite a bit. Much of the time, a discrepancy in perceived value or the condition of a coin plays a major role. In this case, we had the added complication of hearing the story from someone who neither owns the coin, nor was privy to all of the conversations between the dealer and the owner.
In the end, I hope it works out to the satisfaction of all. I imagine the dealer isn't too pleased with how it all played out.
It remains possible that the dealer acted in good faith throughout the entire situation. In my line of work, dealing fairly and managing expectations with an individual is hard enough. Dealing with their extended family often gets things right complicated.
@jdillane said:
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
The dealer responded... Those are very unnecessary comments, like others in this thread.
Definitely a lack of communication between the owner, OP, and the dealer.
I say everyone put away the pitchforks and let the owner/dealer work this out privately like it should have been.
Actually, I'm not sure the dealer and the owner had such a communication problem. They appear to socialize regularly.
It seems more like the OP and his sister were upset more than the owner of the coin.
Just for clarification, my sister was never involved in this.
@jdillane said:
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
The dealer responded... Those are very unnecessary comments, like others in this thread.
Definitely a lack of communication between the owner, OP, and the dealer.
I say everyone put away the pitchforks and let the owner/dealer work this out privately like it should have been.
Actually, I'm not sure the dealer and the owner had such a communication problem. They appear to socialize regularly.
It seems more like the OP and his sister were upset more than the owner of the coin.
Just for clarification, my sister was never involved in this.
@jdillane said:
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
The dealer responded... Those are very unnecessary comments, like others in this thread.
Definitely a lack of communication between the owner, OP, and the dealer.
I say everyone put away the pitchforks and let the owner/dealer work this out privately like it should have been.
Actually, I'm not sure the dealer and the owner had such a communication problem. They appear to socialize regularly.
It seems more like the OP and his sister were upset more than the owner of the coin.
Just for clarification, my sister was never involved in this.
Who were those texts between?
My mother. If my sister drove off the side of a cliff and was never heard from again I wouldn’t shed a tear.
Sorry but the response is way too snippy for me. I learned a long time ago as a business owner not to bother - just say sorry your expectations weren’t met and move on.
Bottom line is dealer treated it as a nuisance $1000 coin whereas collectors heir saw it as a much bigger part of their net worth. Priorities were mismatched. It doesn’t take a year to handle a coin - even one with $1,000 value.
And I’ve done biz with Alhambra - a satisfactory $3500 purchase back in the day.
What steps to take ?
A) Baby Steps
B )Full Steps
C) Giant Steps
The steps taken may have stepped on toes, for some, but the aim was to the heart.
Alan hit the target and blood is thicker than water. But my own dad would have said ; " it ain't no skin off your nose".
Sometimes it feels like PCGS has my coins for a year.
This thread is a classic example as to why I don't like dealing with coins needing restoration. Find your dad a better coin.
Curious, would anyone of the board's reputable dealers take a year for something like this?
And, would you send a message like the one that David Hunt did that Mitch (Wondercoin) posted for him?
The actual dealers I have dealt with on this board, for over 20 years now, I would trust and I really don't think any of them would be involved in any way with actions like have occurred (and not just saying from the OP's posts).
Bochiman: Your analysis is reasonable, but here is the “other side of that coin”…
If you had a roughly $3,000 -$3,500 valued (at GSB) coin as we have here that was in need of restoration, would you think of asking any of your dealer friends to do all the work related to the coin at no fee? While I would be happy to help YOU due to our 20+ year “board friendship”, I’m not sure you would want me to earn nothing to do a ton of work for you-right? At a minimum, you might say that after I go through the restoration process, I would earn maybe 10-15% commission selling the coin for you - yes? And that would be great as, in the end, I would take in $300+ for all my services combined.
But here, my interpretation only is the dealer feels this is the classic “no good deed goes unpunished”. Perhaps the dealer volunteered to handle the restoration at no charge at all for the customer and there was no prearranged deal to sell the coin at an agreed commission thereafter. Hence, asking for it back (for the son to then possibly market it) after all the work was performed related to the restoration as well as related to attempting to auction the coin in a vintage holder, might be seen as in bad form from the “40 year customer”. Again, just my interpretation of possibly why there might be slightly bad feelings on this isolated deal.
Had I been working the coin, I might expect 2-3 months to get to the completed restoration (or return of the coin from PCGS) if I reached (or failed to reach) the pre-deal with PCGS on the expected grade. Then, another 2-3 weeks on trying to close a deal with Stacks and GC on the vintage holder auction. Then, a few months trying to market the coin at a big coin show either successfully or unsuccessfully (with direction from the customer). So, there goes 6 months right there, because PCGS said no and Stacks and GC presumably said no (certainly not the fault of the dealer or the customer). Perhaps additional months have been spent with the coin on a show table with an asking price. Again, this was (quite possibly) a favor to the customer in the first place. The dealer did not sell the customer this coin (huge distinction with a difference in my opinion).
And, the customer did absolutely nothing wrong either. If I am even half right on my thesis here, no thread needed to be posted related to this matter as the dealer was only acting in the best interests of the Dad -yes? Just a few phone calls back and forth perhaps by the son would have likely done the trick. That said, I applaud any son protecting his aging father- let alone a 100% disabled combat veteran! Thank you for your service Alan!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Consult an attorney. If Your dealing with unsecured debt could be tough sledding. Good luck. How Does the value of what Dealer holding compare vs attorney fees and court costs?
@wondercoin said:
Bochiman: Your analysis is reasonable, but here is the “other side of that coin”…
If you had a roughly $3,000 -$3,500 valued (at GSB) coin as we have here that was in need of restoration, would you think of asking any of your dealer friends to do all the work related to the coin at no fee? While I would be happy to help YOU due to our 20+ year “board friendship”, I’m not sure you would want me to earn nothing to do a ton of work for you-right? At a minimum, you might say that after I go through the restoration process, I would earn maybe 10-15% commission selling the coin for you - yes? And that would be great as, in the end, I would take in $300+ for all my services combined.
But here, my interpretation only is the dealer feels this is the classic “no good deed goes unpunished”. Perhaps the dealer volunteered to handle the restoration at no charge at all for the customer and there was no prearranged deal to sell the coin at an agreed commission thereafter. Hence, asking for it back (for the son to then possibly market it) after all the work was performed related to the restoration as well as related to attempting to auction the coin in a vintage holder, might be seen as in bad form from the “40 year customer”. Again, just my interpretation of possibly why there might be slightly bad feelings on this isolated deal.
Had I been working the coin, I might expect 2-3 months to get to the completed restoration (or return of the coin from PCGS) if I reached (or failed to reach) the pre-deal with PCGS on the expected grade. Then, another 2-3 weeks on trying to close a deal with Stacks and GC on the vintage holder auction. Then, a few months trying to market the coin at a big coin show either successfully or unsuccessfully (with direction from the customer). So, there goes 6 months right there, because PCGS said no and Stacks and GC presumably said no (certainly not the fault of the dealer or the customer). Perhaps additional months have been spent with the coin on a show table with an asking price. Again, this was (quite possibly) a favor to the customer in the first place. The dealer did not sell the customer this coin (huge distinction with a difference in my opinion).
And, the customer did absolutely nothing wrong either. If I am even half right on my thesis here, no thread needed to be posted related to this matter as the dealer was only acting in the best interests of the Dad -yes? Just a few phone calls back and forth perhaps by the son would have likely done the trick. That said, I applaud any son protecting his aging father- let alone a 100% disabled combat veteran! Thank you for your service Alan!
Wondercoin
Mitch,
You are correct as well, in expectations. I would NOT expect you to do something like that for $0 on your end. There are, as you note, multiple ways to handle it. But, I think if I were negligent in calling a deal out properly, you (dealer) would. It wouldn't just be left hanging. That was largely my point in my post. A good dealer would be clear and make sure things are in writing, somewhere (text, email, etc).
Having personally been through 2 "David Hall Reviews" for coins, I understand how long things can take. Others may not. Here, again, expectation setting is important IF the dealer is knowledgeable about it. If they are, and don't properly set expectations around timing, not just around cost/process, then that isn't a good sign either.
Threads like this are an impetus for me, as I age and health isn't the same as it was, to leave contact instructions for my son/wife on many of the coins in my collection, and to make sure my spreadsheet is constantly updated (ie...if coins are out to a dealer or to a grading service). There are too many misunderstandings and misinterpretations and if the originator is incapacitated, for whatever reason, or no longer around, it can get messy.
I've already told them about this board and some of the dealers (I have 1 local that I "somewhat" trust on a few things, but my trusted dealers are on this website, and you are obviously one of them).
@Cougar1978 said:
Consult an attorney. If Your dealing with unsecured debt could be tough sledding. Good luck. How Does the value of what Dealer holding compare vs attorney fees and court costs?
Yet again, it appears that you’ve posted without reading the replies. As a result, your advice is of zero value.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jdillane said:
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
The dealer responded... Those are very unnecessary comments, like others in this thread.
Definitely a lack of communication between the owner, OP, and the dealer.
I say everyone put away the pitchforks and let the owner/dealer work this out privately like it should have been.
Actually, I'm not sure the dealer and the owner had such a communication problem. They appear to socialize regularly.
It seems more like the OP and his sister were upset more than the owner of the coin.
Just for clarification, my sister was never involved in this.
Who were those texts between?
My mother. If my sister drove off the side of a cliff and was never heard from again I wouldn’t shed a tear.
@Cougar1978 said:
Consult an attorney. If Your dealing with unsecured debt could be tough sledding. Good luck. How Does the value of what Dealer holding compare vs attorney fees and court costs?
Yet again, it appears that you’ve posted without reading the replies. As a result, your advice is of zero value.
Reading is hard. Thank God the AI can do it for me.
@wondercoin said:
Bochiman: Your analysis is reasonable, but here is the “other side of that coin”…
If you had a roughly $3,000 -$3,500 valued (at GSB) coin as we have here that was in need of restoration, would you think of asking any of your dealer friends to do all the work related to the coin at no fee? While I would be happy to help YOU due to our 20+ year “board friendship”, I’m not sure you would want me to earn nothing to do a ton of work for you-right? At a minimum, you might say that after I go through the restoration process, I would earn maybe 10-15% commission selling the coin for you - yes? And that would be great as, in the end, I would take in $300+ for all my services combined.
But here, my interpretation only is the dealer feels this is the classic “no good deed goes unpunished”. Perhaps the dealer volunteered to handle the restoration at no charge at all for the customer and there was no prearranged deal to sell the coin at an agreed commission thereafter. Hence, asking for it back (for the son to then possibly market it) after all the work was performed related to the restoration as well as related to attempting to auction the coin in a vintage holder, might be seen as in bad form from the “40 year customer”. Again, just my interpretation of possibly why there might be slightly bad feelings on this isolated deal.
Had I been working the coin, I might expect 2-3 months to get to the completed restoration (or return of the coin from PCGS) if I reached (or failed to reach) the pre-deal with PCGS on the expected grade. Then, another 2-3 weeks on trying to close a deal with Stacks and GC on the vintage holder auction. Then, a few months trying to market the coin at a big coin show either successfully or unsuccessfully (with direction from the customer). So, there goes 6 months right there, because PCGS said no and Stacks and GC presumably said no (certainly not the fault of the dealer or the customer). Perhaps additional months have been spent with the coin on a show table with an asking price. Again, this was (quite possibly) a favor to the customer in the first place. The dealer did not sell the customer this coin (huge distinction with a difference in my opinion).
And, the customer did absolutely nothing wrong either. If I am even half right on my thesis here, no thread needed to be posted related to this matter as the dealer was only acting in the best interests of the Dad -yes? Just a few phone calls back and forth perhaps by the son would have likely done the trick. That said, I applaud any son protecting his aging father- let alone a 100% disabled combat veteran! Thank you for your service Alan!
Wondercoin
Mitch,
You are correct as well, in expectations. I would NOT expect you to do something like that for $0 on your end. There are, as you note, multiple ways to handle it. But, I think if I were negligent in calling a deal out properly, you (dealer) would. It wouldn't just be left hanging. That was largely my point in my post. A good dealer would be clear and make sure things are in writing, somewhere (text, email, etc).
Having personally been through 2 "David Hall Reviews" for coins, I understand how long things can take. Others may not. Here, again, expectation setting is important IF the dealer is knowledgeable about it. If they are, and don't properly set expectations around timing, not just around cost/process, then that isn't a good sign either.
Threads like this are an impetus for me, as I age and health isn't the same as it was, to leave contact instructions for my son/wife on many of the coins in my collection, and to make sure my spreadsheet is constantly updated (ie...if coins are out to a dealer or to a grading service). There are too many misunderstandings and misinterpretations and if the originator is incapacitated, for whatever reason, or no longer around, it can get messy.
I've already told them about this board and some of the dealers (I have 1 local that I "somewhat" trust on a few things, but my trusted dealers are on this website, and you are obviously one of them).
Ron, you included two words in your post - each starting with the letter “m” - that I believe probably accounted for most of the problems with the transaction. The words were “misunderstandings and misinterpretations”. And I’ll add a third closely related “m” word - “miscommunication”.
Earlier in this thread, I wrote “To be fair, the other side of the story (and facts) are unknown to us.”
I was then asked “What "other side"?” and “Did I miss anything?.”
And I replied “Yes, you missed whatever the other side of the story is. For example, there might have been a miscommunication and/or misunderstanding of some type. There might have also been missed or lost messages during the process. We simply don’t know.”
All of us know what’s inside our own heads, but we don’t always do a good job of conveying that to those with whom we’re communicating. And that doesn’t apply only to rare coin transactions.😉
Good to see you posting.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Atcarroll said:
It's been an interesting thread. Definitely sounds like better communication could have diffused the situation >before it got to this point.
And faster service from the guy his father was dealing with !
And maybe something IN WRITING stating that the coin was with so-and-so and would be sent to PCGS or whomever in a few weeks/months/whatever.
I know whenver I gave financial stategies to clients, especially older ones, I would write it out for them. That way, there was never a dispute about what we talked about on the phone OR in person.
@AlanSki said:
It’s an ANACS solo top pop so it shouldn’t be hard to spot if it ever shows up anywhere.
I forgot you had posted pictures on it, Alan.
NGC also has a high quality conservation department, but since PCGS decided to punt on it, probably the verdict would be the same with NGC. They have a $50 expedite fee, or did, to turn around conservation jobs quickly in addition to their usual fees. Anacs also has a top notch conservation department; I've heard very good things about them. And though the grade guarantee on the coin is long past gone, they'd probably do everything they can to make it more saleable.
Coin has been returned. I’ve been threatened with a lawsuit again if I don’t apologize to the owner of Alhambra Coin although I never accused the owner of anything and even stated the owner was probably unaware of anything going on.
Before the thread is closed - I’m glad to hear it!
Edited: For the record, when I posted my above comment, I was replying to “Coin has been returned”. After I replied, the post by @AlanSki was edited to add things I wasn’t glad to hear.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I wouldn't sweat a meritless lawsuit. However, I hope you gained perspective from this experience that a direct personal call to the business owner first vs posting here was the better approach. IMHO.
One thing this thread makes clear...and something I've learned in 4 decades of managing money, handling people's assets, having LONG discussions on the phone and in-person...... GET IT IN WRITING !!
Then send a copy to the client or prospective client or whoever you are dealing with....and if there is a disagrement in any fees, timeline, or other material details....the person can object promptly with their copy of the conversation/meeting.
@ctf_error_coins said:
It is really easy to write the words, "I apologize", without an addendum.
Sure, if the OP did something wrong.
If this was just a miscommunication between the parties -- augmented by an 86-year old and the OP and others who were not the owners of the coin in question -- then fine, everybody show their POV and let's move on.
The time to move on this seemed very slow (> 1 year) but maybe the firm was busy. I don't know. Again, communication and IN WRITING solves this problem. Outside of a few text messages, it's hearsay vs. hearsay.
It does appear that the firm in question has a good reputation. They've been around for decades. Nothing like the scamster firms that went under with people's coins/assets. So maybe this was just a employee who was overworked and didn't keep the client (or the client's son) in the loop because they assumed they knew it would be a lengthy process. But probably not over a year !
@jdillane said:
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
The dealer responded... Those are very unnecessary comments, like others in this thread.
Definitely a lack of communication between the owner, OP, and the dealer.
I say everyone put away the pitchforks and let the owner/dealer work this out privately like it should have been.
Actually, I'm not sure the dealer and the owner had such a communication problem. They appear to socialize regularly.
It seems more like the OP and his sister were upset more than the owner of the coin.
Just for clarification, my sister was never involved in this.
Who were those texts between?
My mother. If my sister drove off the side of a cliff and was never heard from again I wouldn’t shed a tear.
To hear this breaks my heart.
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers
Also, what might have been lost in all of this is that it sounds like your father has/had a nice collection and knew his coins. I hope he enjoyed his journey in numismatics.
As for any apologies due, the shop's representative, in his message posted by wondercoin, accused the OP of wanting to "take over his (father's) assets", and being "so concerned about what you obviously think is yours". Those unfounded and malicious accusations might be potentially libelous and defamatory.
The way the shop's representative signed his message told me alot about his attitude:
PCGS member
NGC member
CAC member and Stockholder
Lifetime member ANA
Numerous other professional memberships
3 time Coin World “100 Most Influential Numismatist”
Coin World, “100 Most Influential Coin Company, 2023”
When someone feels a need to sign his name like that in a situation like this, I interpret it as a bullying and intimidation tactic.
My impression of that coin shop is greatly diminished, not because of anything the OP or any other poster wrote, but because of what their representative wrote.
@ctf_error_coins said:
It is really easy to write the words, "I apologize", without an addendum.
Sure, if the OP did something wrong.
If this was just a miscommunication between the parties -- augmented by an 86-year old and the OP and others who were not the owners of the coin in question -- then fine, everybody show their POV and let's move on.
The time to move on this seemed very slow (> 1 year) but maybe the firm was busy. I don't know. Again, communication and IN WRITING solves this problem. Outside of a few text messages, it's hearsay vs. hearsay.
It does appear that the firm in question has a good reputation. They've been around for decades. Nothing like the scamster firms that went under with people's coins/assets. So maybe this was just a employee who was overworked and didn't keep the client (or the client's son) in the loop because they assumed they knew it would be a lengthy process. But probably not over a year !
I thought the post by @ ctf_error_coins was directed towards the dealer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@ctf_error_coins said:
It is really easy to write the words, "I apologize", without an addendum.
Sure, if the OP did something wrong.
If this was just a miscommunication between the parties -- augmented by an 86-year old and the OP and others who were not the owners of the coin in question -- then fine, everybody show their POV and let's move on.
The time to move on this seemed very slow (> 1 year) but maybe the firm was busy. I don't know. Again, communication and IN WRITING solves this problem. Outside of a few text messages, it's hearsay vs. hearsay.
It does appear that the firm in question has a good reputation. They've been around for decades. Nothing like the scamster firms that went under with people's coins/assets. So maybe this was just a employee who was overworked and didn't keep the client (or the client's son) in the loop because they assumed they knew it would be a lengthy process. But probably not over a year !
I thought the post by @ ctf_error_coins was directed towards the dealer.
@ctf_error_coins said:
It is really easy to write the words, "I apologize", without an addendum.
Sure, if the OP did something wrong.
If this was just a miscommunication between the parties -- augmented by an 86-year old and the OP and others who were not the owners of the coin in question -- then fine, everybody show their POV and let's move on.
The time to move on this seemed very slow (> 1 year) but maybe the firm was busy. I don't know. Again, communication and IN WRITING solves this problem. Outside of a few text messages, it's hearsay vs. hearsay.
It does appear that the firm in question has a good reputation. They've been around for decades. Nothing like the scamster firms that went under with people's coins/assets. So maybe this was just a employee who was overworked and didn't keep the client (or the client's son) in the loop because they assumed they knew it would be a lengthy process. But probably not over a year !
I thought the post by @ ctf_error_coins was directed towards the dealer.
And you would be wrong again.
Thank you for letting us know, despite your poor attitude, again.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Also, what might have been lost in all of this is that it sounds like your father has/had a nice collection and knew his coins. I hope he enjoyed his journey in numismatics.
As for any apologies due, the shop's representative, in his message posted by wondercoin, accused the OP of wanting to "take over his (father's) assets", and being "so concerned about what you obviously think is yours".
Those unfounded and malicious accusations might be potentially libelous and defamatory.
The way the shop's representative signed his message told me alot a about his attitude:
PCGS member
NGC member
CAC member and Stockholder
Lifetime member ANA
Numerous other professional memberships
3 time Coin World “100 Most Influential Numismatist”
Coin World, “100 Most Influential Coin Company, 2023”
When someone feels a need to sign his name like that in a situation like this, I interpret it as a bullying and intimidation tactic.
My impression of that coin shop is greatly diminished, not because of anything the OP or any other poster wrote, but because of what their representative wrote.
Maybe he should sue himself. 🤔
Agreed; it could have been said in a lot fewer words without adding all the “filler” in the end. Some of the scammers were also part of those organizations (plus some, like ANA, PCGS and NGC member can be true for anyone that is willing to pay the annual fee).
@ctf_error_coins said:
It is really easy to write the words, "I apologize", without an addendum.
Sure, if the OP did something wrong.
If this was just a miscommunication between the parties -- augmented by an 86-year old and the OP and others who were not the owners of the coin in question -- then fine, everybody show their POV and let's move on.
The time to move on this seemed very slow (> 1 year) but maybe the firm was busy. I don't know. Again, communication and IN WRITING solves this problem. Outside of a few text messages, it's hearsay vs. hearsay.
It does appear that the firm in question has a good reputation. They've been around for decades. Nothing like the scamster firms that went under with people's coins/assets. So maybe this was just a employee who was overworked and didn't keep the client (or the client's son) in the loop because they assumed they knew it would be a lengthy process. But probably not over a year !
I thought the post by @ ctf_error_coins was directed towards the dealer.
And you would be wrong again.
Thank you for letting us know, despite your poor attitude, again.
@ctf_error_coins said:
It is really easy to write the words, "I apologize", without an addendum.
Sure, if the OP did something wrong.
If this was just a miscommunication between the parties -- augmented by an 86-year old and the OP and others who were not the owners of the coin in question -- then fine, everybody show their POV and let's move on.
The time to move on this seemed very slow (> 1 year) but maybe the firm was busy. I don't know. Again, communication and IN WRITING solves this problem. Outside of a few text messages, it's hearsay vs. hearsay.
It does appear that the firm in question has a good reputation. They've been around for decades. Nothing like the scamster firms that went under with people's coins/assets. So maybe this was just a employee who was overworked and didn't keep the client (or the client's son) in the loop because they assumed they knew it would be a lengthy process. But probably not over a year !
I thought the post by @ ctf_error_coins was directed towards the dealer.
And you would be wrong again.
Thank you for letting us know, despite your poor attitude, again.
Thank you for your constant arrogance, again.
I hope this will help you somewhere along the line - if something is constant, “again” doesn’t apply.
And I apologize for being arrogant in saying I thought your comment “It is really easy to write the words, "I apologize", without an addendum.” was directed towards the dealer. Never mind that you didn’t provide any perspective to your post.
Signed,
constantly arrogant again.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@AlanSki said:
Coin has been returned. I’ve been threatened with a lawsuit again if I don’t apologize to the owner of Alhambra Coin although I never accused the owner of anything and even stated the owner was probably unaware of anything going on.
This thread can be closed.
Reading through this, it is still unclear if the owner of Alhambra is aware of the situation, or if Mr. Hall is the only one doing the lawsuit threatening of a longtime business associates son who is apparently trying to get answers on his father's behalf.
Hopefully the owner knows, because it's definitely not appropriate to make such statements if Mr. Hall is not a stake owner in Alhambra.
Trigger awareness:
"This rule enforces awareness of the direction the muzzle is pointing and positive identification of targets. Keep your trigger finger straight and off the trigger. This rule keeps you from firing a weapon by mistake and reinforces sitsuational awareness".
Comments
Please post pictures of the coin when you get it back; is this a coin that is truly environmentally damaged after grading as a gem or a mystery situation where it is unknown whether the coin could be conserved or not? An MS63 version of the Grant Star is worth a little over $2K. Btw, "slander" is dishonest accusations, while defamation can be based on the actual events. My guess is the truth lies somewhere between what the dealer and customer is claiming. How sad that a coin situation once again is resulting in such rancor and division.
A saber rattling letter should move the chains. Conversion, larceny by trick, fraud come to mind. Question is whether the dealer is in a failure spiral and essentially uncollectible. If not, a sharp letter would hopefully get results from the scoundrel!
The coin is supposedly going back to the OP’s father (who owns it), not the OP. So he might not be able to post pictures, even if he wants to. And it was stated by the dealer that PCGS already declined to conserve the coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The dealer responded... Those are very unnecessary comments, like others in this thread.
Definitely a lack of communication between the owner, OP, and the dealer.
I say everyone put away the pitchforks and let the owner/dealer work this out privately like it should have been.
The chains have already been moved and it sounds like the coin’s owner should have it back next week. None of the acts that came to your mind are applicable in this case. It would have been better to have read through the thread before throwing out such words.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Furthermore the OP has already stated he won’t be posting to this thread.
It's been an interesting thread. Definitely sounds like better communication could have diffused the situation before it got to this point.
Helps to actually read the thread...
Actually, I'm not sure the dealer and the owner had such a communication problem. They appear to socialize regularly.
It seems more like the OP and his sister were upset more than the owner of the coin.
Yes, interesting indeed to see how this thread progressed.....
There have been many similar threads over the years, usually starting with a recitation of a supposed wrong. One side is presented, people jump on the bandwagon, pitchforks and torches are gathered, and then, usually, eventually, the other side gets out.
Almost 100% of the time, my opinion of the situation changes once the other side is presented. Sometimes it changes a little, and sometimes a lot. In this case, it changed quite a bit. Much of the time, a discrepancy in perceived value or the condition of a coin plays a major role. In this case, we had the added complication of hearing the story from someone who neither owns the coin, nor was privy to all of the conversations between the dealer and the owner.
In the end, I hope it works out to the satisfaction of all. I imagine the dealer isn't too pleased with how it all played out.
It remains possible that the dealer acted in good faith throughout the entire situation. In my line of work, dealing fairly and managing expectations with an individual is hard enough. Dealing with their extended family often gets things right complicated.
Just for clarification, my sister was never involved in this.
Who were those texts between?
My mother. If my sister drove off the side of a cliff and was never heard from again I wouldn’t shed a tear.
AlanSki,
Glad to see you changed your mind and are back now posting to this thread.
peacockcoins
It was just for clarification. I’m gone again.
Sorry but the response is way too snippy for me. I learned a long time ago as a business owner not to bother - just say sorry your expectations weren’t met and move on.
Bottom line is dealer treated it as a nuisance $1000 coin whereas collectors heir saw it as a much bigger part of their net worth. Priorities were mismatched. It doesn’t take a year to handle a coin - even one with $1,000 value.
And I’ve done biz with Alhambra - a satisfactory $3500 purchase back in the day.
What steps to take ?
A) Baby Steps
B )Full Steps
C) Giant Steps
The steps taken may have stepped on toes, for some, but the aim was to the heart.
Alan hit the target and blood is thicker than water. But my own dad would have said ; " it ain't no skin off your nose".
Sometimes it feels like PCGS has my coins for a year.
This thread is a classic example as to why I don't like dealing with coins needing restoration. Find your dad a better coin.
Curious, would anyone of the board's reputable dealers take a year for something like this?
And, would you send a message like the one that David Hunt did that Mitch (Wondercoin) posted for him?
The actual dealers I have dealt with on this board, for over 20 years now, I would trust and I really don't think any of them would be involved in any way with actions like have occurred (and not just saying from the OP's posts).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Bochiman: Your analysis is reasonable, but here is the “other side of that coin”…
If you had a roughly $3,000 -$3,500 valued (at GSB) coin as we have here that was in need of restoration, would you think of asking any of your dealer friends to do all the work related to the coin at no fee? While I would be happy to help YOU due to our 20+ year “board friendship”, I’m not sure you would want me to earn nothing to do a ton of work for you-right? At a minimum, you might say that after I go through the restoration process, I would earn maybe 10-15% commission selling the coin for you - yes? And that would be great as, in the end, I would take in $300+ for all my services combined.
But here, my interpretation only is the dealer feels this is the classic “no good deed goes unpunished”. Perhaps the dealer volunteered to handle the restoration at no charge at all for the customer and there was no prearranged deal to sell the coin at an agreed commission thereafter. Hence, asking for it back (for the son to then possibly market it) after all the work was performed related to the restoration as well as related to attempting to auction the coin in a vintage holder, might be seen as in bad form from the “40 year customer”. Again, just my interpretation of possibly why there might be slightly bad feelings on this isolated deal.
Had I been working the coin, I might expect 2-3 months to get to the completed restoration (or return of the coin from PCGS) if I reached (or failed to reach) the pre-deal with PCGS on the expected grade. Then, another 2-3 weeks on trying to close a deal with Stacks and GC on the vintage holder auction. Then, a few months trying to market the coin at a big coin show either successfully or unsuccessfully (with direction from the customer). So, there goes 6 months right there, because PCGS said no and Stacks and GC presumably said no (certainly not the fault of the dealer or the customer). Perhaps additional months have been spent with the coin on a show table with an asking price. Again, this was (quite possibly) a favor to the customer in the first place. The dealer did not sell the customer this coin (huge distinction with a difference in my opinion).
And, the customer did absolutely nothing wrong either. If I am even half right on my thesis here, no thread needed to be posted related to this matter as the dealer was only acting in the best interests of the Dad -yes? Just a few phone calls back and forth perhaps by the son would have likely done the trick. That said, I applaud any son protecting his aging father- let alone a 100% disabled combat veteran! Thank you for your service Alan!
Wondercoin
Consult an attorney. If Your dealing with unsecured debt could be tough sledding. Good luck. How Does the value of what Dealer holding compare vs attorney fees and court costs?
Mitch,
You are correct as well, in expectations. I would NOT expect you to do something like that for $0 on your end. There are, as you note, multiple ways to handle it. But, I think if I were negligent in calling a deal out properly, you (dealer) would. It wouldn't just be left hanging. That was largely my point in my post. A good dealer would be clear and make sure things are in writing, somewhere (text, email, etc).
Having personally been through 2 "David Hall Reviews" for coins, I understand how long things can take. Others may not. Here, again, expectation setting is important IF the dealer is knowledgeable about it. If they are, and don't properly set expectations around timing, not just around cost/process, then that isn't a good sign either.
Threads like this are an impetus for me, as I age and health isn't the same as it was, to leave contact instructions for my son/wife on many of the coins in my collection, and to make sure my spreadsheet is constantly updated (ie...if coins are out to a dealer or to a grading service). There are too many misunderstandings and misinterpretations and if the originator is incapacitated, for whatever reason, or no longer around, it can get messy.
I've already told them about this board and some of the dealers (I have 1 local that I "somewhat" trust on a few things, but my trusted dealers are on this website, and you are obviously one of them).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Thank you Bochiman. But, in the meantime, let’s plan to have these conversations on these message boards for yet another 20 years+ !!
Wondercoin
Yet again, it appears that you’ve posted without reading the replies. As a result, your advice is of zero value.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sorry. My misunderstanding.
Reading is hard. Thank God the AI can do it for me.
Ron, you included two words in your post - each starting with the letter “m” - that I believe probably accounted for most of the problems with the transaction. The words were “misunderstandings and misinterpretations”. And I’ll add a third closely related “m” word - “miscommunication”.
Earlier in this thread, I wrote “To be fair, the other side of the story (and facts) are unknown to us.”
I was then asked “What "other side"?” and “Did I miss anything?.”
And I replied “Yes, you missed whatever the other side of the story is. For example, there might have been a miscommunication and/or misunderstanding of some type. There might have also been missed or lost messages during the process. We simply don’t know.”
All of us know what’s inside our own heads, but we don’t always do a good job of conveying that to those with whom we’re communicating. And that doesn’t apply only to rare coin transactions.😉
Good to see you posting.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
And faster service from the guy his father was dealing with !
And maybe something IN WRITING stating that the coin was with so-and-so and would be sent to PCGS or whomever in a few weeks/months/whatever.
I know whenver I gave financial stategies to clients, especially older ones, I would write it out for them. That way, there was never a dispute about what we talked about on the phone OR in person.
I forgot you had posted pictures on it, Alan.
NGC also has a high quality conservation department, but since PCGS decided to punt on it, probably the verdict would be the same with NGC. They have a $50 expedite fee, or did, to turn around conservation jobs quickly in addition to their usual fees. Anacs also has a top notch conservation department; I've heard very good things about them. And though the grade guarantee on the coin is long past gone, they'd probably do everything they can to make it more saleable.
Coin has been returned. I’ve been threatened with a lawsuit again if I don’t apologize to the owner of Alhambra Coin although I never accused the owner of anything and even stated the owner was probably unaware of anything going on.
This thread can be closed.
Before the thread is closed - I’m glad to hear it!
Edited: For the record, when I posted my above comment, I was replying to “Coin has been returned”. After I replied, the post by @AlanSki was edited to add things I wasn’t glad to hear.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I wouldn't sweat a meritless lawsuit. However, I hope you gained perspective from this experience that a direct personal call to the business owner first vs posting here was the better approach. IMHO.
(edited to add "business)
Pathetic to threaten like that. If anything would deter me from doing business with them it was their threat of lawsuit not anything the OP said 🫤
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
One thing this thread makes clear...and something I've learned in 4 decades of managing money, handling people's assets, having LONG discussions on the phone and in-person...... GET IT IN WRITING !!
Then send a copy to the client or prospective client or whoever you are dealing with....and if there is a disagrement in any fees, timeline, or other material details....the person can object promptly with their copy of the conversation/meeting.
It is really easy to write the words, "I apologize", without an addendum.
To the owner of Alhambra Coin:
“I apologize”
Sure, if the OP did something wrong.
If this was just a miscommunication between the parties -- augmented by an 86-year old and the OP and others who were not the owners of the coin in question -- then fine, everybody show their POV and let's move on.
The time to move on this seemed very slow (> 1 year) but maybe the firm was busy. I don't know. Again, communication and IN WRITING solves this problem. Outside of a few text messages, it's hearsay vs. hearsay.
It does appear that the firm in question has a good reputation. They've been around for decades. Nothing like the scamster firms that went under with people's coins/assets. So maybe this was just a employee who was overworked and didn't keep the client (or the client's son) in the loop because they assumed they knew it would be a lengthy process. But probably not over a year !
To hear this breaks my heart.
Glad to hear the coin is back home.
Also, what might have been lost in all of this is that it sounds like your father has/had a nice collection and knew his coins. I hope he enjoyed his journey in numismatics.
As for any apologies due, the shop's representative, in his message posted by wondercoin, accused the OP of wanting to "take over his (father's) assets", and being "so concerned about what you obviously think is yours". Those unfounded and malicious accusations might be potentially libelous and defamatory.
The way the shop's representative signed his message told me alot about his attitude:
PCGS member
NGC member
CAC member and Stockholder
Lifetime member ANA
Numerous other professional memberships
3 time Coin World “100 Most Influential Numismatist”
Coin World, “100 Most Influential Coin Company, 2023”
When someone feels a need to sign his name like that in a situation like this, I interpret it as a bullying and intimidation tactic.
My impression of that coin shop is greatly diminished, not because of anything the OP or any other poster wrote, but because of what their representative wrote.
Maybe he should sue himself. 🤔
I thought the post by @ ctf_error_coins was directed towards the dealer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
And you would be wrong again.
Thank you for letting us know, despite your poor attitude, again.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agreed; it could have been said in a lot fewer words without adding all the “filler” in the end. Some of the scammers were also part of those organizations (plus some, like ANA, PCGS and NGC member can be true for anyone that is willing to pay the annual fee).
Thank you for your constant arrogance, again.
peacockcoins
Deleted so I don't get sued.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I hope this will help you somewhere along the line - if something is constant, “again” doesn’t apply.
And I apologize for being arrogant in saying I thought your comment “It is really easy to write the words, "I apologize", without an addendum.” was directed towards the dealer. Never mind that you didn’t provide any perspective to your post.
Signed,
constantly arrogant again.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I hate lawsuits but they came with the territory so I’m well versed in them. I prefer not to add my “experience” in a signature.
Reading through this, it is still unclear if the owner of Alhambra is aware of the situation, or if Mr. Hall is the only one doing the lawsuit threatening of a longtime business associates son who is apparently trying to get answers on his father's behalf.
Hopefully the owner knows, because it's definitely not appropriate to make such statements if Mr. Hall is not a stake owner in Alhambra.
Trigger awareness:
"This rule enforces awareness of the direction the muzzle is pointing and positive identification of targets. Keep your trigger finger straight and off the trigger. This rule keeps you from firing a weapon by mistake and reinforces sitsuational awareness".
Nice to see you practicing that!
peacockcoins