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A hypothetical on honesty.
relicsncoins
Posts: 7,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
Let's say your spouse drags you to a yard sale and while looking at the tables you see a small box of 3 or 4 certified common date Morgan dollars all priced at today's current Redbook prices, only one of them is in an NGC black holder. What do you do?
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I'll go first, since this might be a touchy subject. I would like to think I would tell them about the holder, but I'm not sure until put into the situation. They priced the coins at what they wanted for them if I purchased them, it would be a legal purchase, but would it be ethical. That's a tough one.
Buying something at the sellers listed price isnt dishonest, even if you know its worth more. They could have just as easily sold to someone who thought the coin was nice and was going to polish it and turn it into a belt buckle....
Having said that, if it looked like they were selling everything at reasonable prices, id tell the people that it was worth more and offer them a fair price. If i looked around and the prices on everything else in their yard sale was absurdly high, id just buy it at their listed price.
I’d be sending a bragging PM to @Lakesammman before I start driving home
I probably buy them and hope for the best. I’ve never sold a coin and wouldn’t be looking to resell that one. They got a Red Book, so the other coins are priced at more than I’d generally pay, anyway.
Well, I would tell them it was valuable and offer to sell it for them and take a finders fee if they agreed. ... However, these kind of hypotheticals are difficult because once the information is known from buyer to seller, all sorts of things can happen to take the deal in a completely different direction.. I think they should know though...
Honesty may be overrated, but I’d probably still tell my wife I bought another coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'll add to this scenario:
Let's say upon request of a price the owner says you could have all four at a cost of $100.00
Would it be eithical to negotiate a price of $75.00?
peacockcoins
Sure you don't Get if you don't Ask.
I don't know any better... what's special about a black holder??
Edited to add...**Buy the coin not the Holder **
Maybe don't hate the player, hate the game.
Does your answer change if I'm negotiating with your widow?
Interesting. For dealers, the whole game of numismatics is the arbitrage of buying a coin for less than you can sell it. At what point does a buyer tell a seller that he cannot buy the coin at X price, because he will make too much money reselling it?
I have been collecting twenty five years and haven't a clue about the black NGC holder. Isn't the refrain, "buy the coin, not the holder?"
For anyone who might not know, the NGC black holder is the first edition, there aren’t many known, and they are worth at least $1K, no matter the coin inside.
I would buy them all of them at whatever the seller asks for it.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. Young Numismatist. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON
The information provided is insufficient. It wasn’t stated whether the “NGC black holder” was a valuable old one or a “retro” holder.😉
However, assuming that it was the old/valuable black holder, * this is what I think I’d do…
I’d buy the coin (without negotiating). After I sold it, I’d pay additional money to the seller and tell him I found a buyer who was willing to pay a very strong price for it. I’m not sure how much extra I’d pay - probably half the profit.
“* this is what I think I’d do”: Unless and until we’re in a situation being contemplated, we can guess, think or be “sure” what we’d do, but not really know for certain, until the moment has actually arrived.
Also, I realize that in going back to the seller with additional money, it might open a big can of worms, but I think it would be one worth opening. Think how good you might feel about what you’d done.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'd buy them at the asking price. I'd be overpaying for the 3 priced at redbook prices, and I would make a profit on the black holder one due to my knowledge. Isn't that how coin dealers and 99% of the public operate? Everyone doesn't operate on 1-2% margins. If you have no interest in the coins or making a profit, then sure tell them what they are worth.
Especially think this decision is clear since they are already priced. Every time someone cherrypicks are they to tell the person and offer them exactly what it is worth? Or a small percent less....no one would cherrypick then. I don't think this is actually a question of honesty or morals.
I used to feel very strongly on this, but lately I realized I am in the minority. I would buy them and ask for a discount. if I can sell them/not fake /not modern (I've never seen or knew a black label NGC coin was worth so much) , I would offer the person (after I sold it) a % of the profits.
I would say, I wanted these for my collection but came on forums.collectors.com and found out that back label coins are worth mucho bucks. I made X, here is your 50%. Rest I would do some decorating.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
I understand the people that just say they would buy it. I'm a little surprised at the number of people who insist they would try to negotiate even lower.
I think I'm going to raise my prices.
Its a yard sale, you should always negotiate.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
This. Complete the sale first and then go back later and give them an extra tip. If you say anything BEFORE the sale they likely will refuse to sell them. Bet the'd end up going to a dealer who may tell them it was worth only what they were asking.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
What if you purchase it for what they priced it for and you then resell it for just a couple dollars more than you bought it for? Like to a collector who you know will really appreciate it that will most likely keep it long term but that has a small coin budget. Would it be ethical then?
Mr_Spud
This is a tough situation, but I think yard sale rules apply.
I think it’s widely understood that bargain hunting is a big part of yard sale culture and it’s the responsibility of sellers to know what they have and the responsibility of buyers to know what they are buying. For example, I don’t know that anyone hosting a yard sale would allow a return if the coin turned out to be fake or worth less than the purchase price.
Different ethics apply if you own a shop and someone brings this coin in asking what it’s worth. The LCS owner is in a position of authority and trusted expert and should respond honestly while also being paid appropriately for their service.
Of course, if you want to be kind and share the profits, that’s nice, but I don’t think that is required in a yard sale situation.
These replies!! 🤣 😂 LoL!!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I'm a nice guy @relicsncoins but I'm not that nice! 🤣
A short story of some other honesty:
I walked into a coin shop years ago "just window" shopping. I was looking at some raw double eagles in the counter display case. An older guy came over to help me. I said; I'm just looking. I told him I've never owned or even held a double eagle. He took 3 double eagles out of the display case and put them on the counter for me to hold and look at. I was like; WoW pretty cool!! A phone call came in for him in the back room. He asked another employee (some young kid) to come over and assist me. The kid came over and asked me how much I wanted for them?!?!
Yes, for a split second it crossed my mind. 🤣 😂 I could have easily walked out with them. They probably never would have even known they were gone! That would have been stealing, for sure!!
I stood there for awhile with this kid negotiating a price. I held the coins up and finally said; these coins are not mine........they're yours!! The kids almost fell over!! 🤣 😂 👍🏻
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I'd buy it and then ask them if they knew what that one was. I'd then educate them and offer them more money as I'm one for a good deal but not to take advantage... I'd still offer less than retail but they would still get more than they bargained for, and I'd still get a good deal.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
I’ll add that when we used to hold garage sales regularly we had people that we knew bought our stuff and resold it for profit (I did this, too, in college) and we always hoped they would show up. The point of the garage sale was to get rid of our stuff quickly and also get some cash back. No one would have come if they weren’t expecting a bargain. We sold tons $100 baby stuff for $5 because we needed it out of our lives and didn’t have time to sell it individually. If I pay $80 for a $1000 holder, that seller got a better percentage than I did on my kids underused stroller. And that’s especially true if I overpay on the other coins in the lot.
Keep in mind the knowledge you have aquired when it comes to this hobby has been cultivated over the years- if not decades of your committment and desire to learn.
There is nothing on this planet more valuable than your time. (and health)
If you have gained the knowledge required to successfully cherry-pick a value- in this case a black core NGC slabbed coin- then the benefit of your dedication is perhaps rewarded in purchasing the coin at a substantial discount.
It all reminds me of this story:
"The huge printing presses of a major Chicago newspaper began malfunctioning on the Saturday before Christmas, putting all the revenue for advertising that was to appear in the Sunday paper in jeopardy. None of the technicians could track down the problem. Finally, a frantic call was made to the retired printer who had worked with these presses for over 40 years. “We’ll pay anything; just come in and fix them,” he was told.
When he arrived, he walked around for a few minutes, surveying the presses; then he approached one of the control panels and opened it. He removed a dime from his pocket, turned a screw 1/4 of a turn, and said, “The presses will now work correctly.” After being profusely thanked, he was told to submit a bill for his work.
The bill arrived a few days later, for $10,000.00! Not wanting to pay such a huge amount for so little work, the printer was told to please itemize his charges, with the hope that he would reduce the amount once he had to identify his services. The revised bill arrived: $1.00 for turning the screw; $9,999.00 for knowing which screw to turn".
peacockcoins
I don't see any two dollar bills.
Cheers, and God Bless, CRHer700
Benefiting through your own knowledge is not dishonest.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
The only caveat I'd make is this example:
If at that neighborhood yard sale you come upon a common .15c comic book and as you are casually thumbing through the pages you happen upon an older, authentic 1K U.S. bill it would be deceitful to purchase that comic book.
Yes, your "knowledge" that the bill is worth at least $1,000.00- and there was no skill involved in finding it- dictate you advise the owner of the contents of the comic book.
I suppose it kind of boils down to this for me ethically:
-You find the bill and you advise the owner as certainly she didn't know it was in the comic book.
-You locate a scarce $1,000. bill offered for sale for say $1,500. yet you know the signature on the bill makes the bill worth $5,000. you purchase it at the asking price.
peacockcoins
Let's add a wrinkle to your hypothetical (because why not be MORE hypothetical). I think the black holders are cool in their novelty factor (and they look nice, too) but they are way out of my league as far as what I'd pay to own one versus what the market dictates. So now I can get one at no (or minimal) premium. I buy the slab and put it in my collection knowing it's insured for well beyond what I paid, but I haven't realized a profit. Do I owe the seller anything? What if I get a strong offer in 5 or 10 years and take it? Do I try to track down the seller all that time later and let them know the good news?
I'm not saying that the buyer would owe the seller anything in either the original hypothetical or yours - only what I think I would do. But in answer to your question...If I bought the holder and, rather than selling it, put it in my collection, I'd still pay the seller extra money.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
its behind the lamp
This hypothetical concerns an unknowledgable seller at a garage sale offering a slabbed coin for sale at a price far below its market value (due to the slab); and a potential buyer who knows the market value.
The OP asks what you would do if you were the potential buyer.
I ask that you change the hypothetical to one where the seller is knowledgable and the potential buyer is not, with the buyer offering to buy the item for a price far above its market value.
In this hypothetical what would you, as the knowledgable seller, do?
Ignore such threads. I am happily not married and never was.
As I read the title and consider the scenario, I don't think it's an issue of "honesty". It might be an issue of ethics, but even more appropriately it might be an issue of generosity.
A few years ago there was a disgraced member here who boasted about ripping an ounce of gold for $25 from a kid at a yard sale while the kid's mother was occupied with another customer. That was dishonest.
That's a really interesting way to rephrase the question.
I hate to say it, but most of the prior responses are in the "whatever is good for me" category.
You know what the ethical thing to do is.
Trillions of electrons are wasted trying to justify a lack of ethics.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
It doesn’t appear that you ignored this “such thread”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There was no wife to better direct his use of time.
Agreed. And the same people advocating for it would be furious if a dealer bought a coin from them for a couple bucks only to turn around and sell it as a rare variety.
I don't remember the specifics, but wasn't there a $5 gold piece that was bought at a yard/garage sale for cheap and then sold for over 2 Million dollars?
Chime in if you know the details
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
You’re talking about the 1854-S $5 that Heritage auctioned for $2,160,000.00 in 2018.
Here’s a link to the listing: https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-half-eagles/1854-s-5-xf45-ngc-pcgs-8260-/a/1278-5248.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
And below is a link to an article by NGC about the discovery of the coin. The article states “… The owner of the newly authenticated coin did not provide any information about how or when he obtained it,”
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/6557/discovery-of-a-lifetime-1854-s-five-dollar/
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I buy it.
If I sold an item that was worth a whole lot more than my selling price, then the responsibility lies with me for not knowing or researching it and I'm not going to cry like a baby that I lost money, nor am I expecting the buyer to point it out for me.
Accountability is sorely lacking in our society right now and we all need to take responsibility for our actions.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
.> @jmlanzaf said:
Completely different situation. The dealer is in a position of trust and authority. The dealer is approached by customers precisely because of their expertise. Experts owe a standard of care when customers solicit their services.
Yard sale buyers owe no such duty to inform sellers. Yard sales are understood to be places of bargain hunting. If there were no prospect of a bargain, many buyers would not bother to show up. Used goods can be bought at retail in all manner of other venues.
If the yard sale coin or holder turned out to fake, and you bought it (at any price), would you demand the yard sale seller give you a refund? Are they ethically required to do so? They aren’t a coin expert or even a collector.
Of course a buyer may decide to be generous (and good for them!) but it’s not ethically required.
Adding that the relationship, context and situation all matter. What is inappropriate in one venue (coin shop) is not necessarily inappropriate in another (yard sale). There are plenty of parallels - appropriate behavior at home, in a place of worship, at the gym, at work, at a nightclub or in public are all different. All have different expectations, rules and ethics.
If you believe it’s unethical to cherry pick a yard sale or there is a requirement to be generous in all contexts - how about eBay? Do you hit Buy it Now or do you send the seller a note offering them hundreds or thousands more?
Before I ask my question, for the record, I believe that in the original scenario, the buyer should pay the seller additional funds. Now for my question - Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Both cases involve two human beings deciding how to treat one another. In both instances, the seller is ignorant and the buyer can profit from that ignorance.
If "experts owe a standard of care", why doesn't the expert yard sale buyer have the same duty as the expert coin dealer buyer? You didn't pay the coin dealer for an expert opinion. You sold him a coin at a price you agreed to. You might even have set the price for him in the hypothetical.
While this is not the greatest problem facing the world, I do find the opinions on this thread a little troublesome. They expect the world (dealers) to treat them with integrity but they don't seem to feel the same duty to treat their neighbors that way.
Dealers are just neighbors who hung up a shingle. Many of them are novices. And then it's okay for the customer to cherry pick them, trading on the customer expertise but the dealer is obligated to not trade on their expertise? That's an awfully fine (invisible?) line. In both scenarios there is a buyer and a seller, "dealer" is not a separate category.
Would a dealer have a higher standard if they were the buyer at the yard sale?
If people didn’t get a rip or two at garage sales there would be no garage sales. It’s what everyone goes to them for.
Martin
You are sidestepping the nuance of context which is recognized in law and tradition. Laypeople are not held to the same standard as a professional offering services in their capacity as a professional. Doctors, lawyers, paramedics, real estate agents, financial advisors and many others in society are all held to higher standards when acting in an official capacity. Of course, that doesn't mean they can act dishonestly (fraudulently) outside of their professional capacity, but there is a distinction when you hold out yourself as a professional. These professions also have inexperienced or incompetent practitioners - they are still held to a higher standard. Dealers should be held to a higher standard when acting in a professional capacity.
So to answer @MFeld "Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?"
No - the dealer must pay a fair price either way. just as a mechanic must provide their best diagnosis and repair regardless of what the customer may believe is wrong with their car.
@jmlanzaf - Do you call up the auction house when you see an unattributed variety? Do you message eBay sellers? What about a junk-bin find at a show? Is there an obligation to inform a seller their coin is more valuable even if you have no interest in buying it? Do you inform everyone you buy a coin from exactly how much profit you will make? If it ends up being more profitable, do you go back and tell them? Where do you draw the line of when you must inform the seller? $1, $10, $100, $1000?
There are shades of grey based on context.
You both side-stepped my question about returning a fake coin to seller at a yard sale. Would you expect a refund? What if the sign at the yard sale said "All Sales Final" or "We make no representations about the items for sale".