@BStrauss3 said:
You know what the ethical thing to do is.
Trillions of electrons are wasted trying to justify a lack of ethics.
Agreed. And the same people advocating for it would be furious if a dealer bought a coin from them for a couple bucks only to turn around and sell it as a rare variety.
Completely different situation. The dealer is in a position of trust and authority. The dealer is approached by customers precisely because of their expertise. Experts owe a standard of care when customers solicit their services.
Yard sale buyers owe no such duty to inform sellers. Yard sales are understood to be places of bargain hunting. If there were no prospect of a bargain, many buyers would not bother to show up. Used goods can be bought at retail in all manner of other venues.
If the yard sale coin or holder turned out to fake, and you bought it (at any price), would you demand the yard sale seller give you a refund? Are they ethically required to do so? They aren’t a coin expert or even a collector.
Of course a buyer may decide to be generous (and good for them!) but it’s not ethically required.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Both cases involve two human beings deciding how to treat one another. In both instances, the seller is ignorant and the buyer can profit from that ignorance.
If "experts owe a standard of care", why doesn't the expert yard sale buyer have the same duty as the expert coin dealer buyer? You didn't pay the coin dealer for an expert opinion. You sold him a coin at a price you agreed to. You might even have set the price for him in the hypothetical.
Because there is no expectation at a yard sale that either the seller or buyer is an expert in the goods being transacted.
@BStrauss3 said:
You know what the ethical thing to do is.
Trillions of electrons are wasted trying to justify a lack of ethics.
Agreed. And the same people advocating for it would be furious if a dealer bought a coin from them for a couple bucks only to turn around and sell it as a rare variety.
Completely different situation. The dealer is in a position of trust and authority. The dealer is approached by customers precisely because of their expertise. Experts owe a standard of care when customers solicit their services.
Yard sale buyers owe no such duty to inform sellers. Yard sales are understood to be places of bargain hunting. If there were no prospect of a bargain, many buyers would not bother to show up. Used goods can be bought at retail in all manner of other venues.
If the yard sale coin or holder turned out to fake, and you bought it (at any price), would you demand the yard sale seller give you a refund? Are they ethically required to do so? They aren’t a coin expert or even a collector.
Of course a buyer may decide to be generous (and good for them!) but it’s not ethically required.
Before I ask my question, for the record, I believe that in the original scenario, the buyer should pay the seller additional funds. Now for my question - Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?
While this is not the greatest problem facing the world, I do find the opinions on this thread a little troublesome. They expect the world (dealers) to treat them with integrity but they don't seem to feel the same duty to treat their neighbors that way.
Dealers are just neighbors who hung up a shingle. Many of them are novices. And then it's okay for the customer to cherry pick them, trading on the customer expertise but the dealer is obligated to not trade on their expertise? That's an awfully fine (invisible?) line. In both scenarios there is a buyer and a seller, "dealer" is not a separate category.
Would a dealer have a higher standard if they were the buyer at the yard sale?
You are sidestepping the nuance of context which is recognized in law and tradition. Laypeople are not held to the same standard as a professional offering services in their capacity as a professional. Doctors, lawyers, paramedics, real estate agents, financial advisors and many others in society are all held to higher standards when acting in an official capacity. Of course, that doesn't mean they can act dishonestly (fraudulently) outside of their professional capacity, but there is a distinction when you hold out yourself as a professional. These professions also have inexperienced or incompetent practitioners - they are still held to a higher standard. Dealers should be held to a higher standard when acting in a professional capacity.
So to answer @MFeld "Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?"
No - the dealer must pay a fair price either way. just as a mechanic must provide their best diagnosis and repair regardless of what the customer may believe is wrong with their car.
@jmlanzaf - Do you call up the auction house when you see an unattributed variety? Do you message eBay sellers? What about a junk-bin find at a show? Is there an obligation to inform a seller their coin is more valuable even if you have no interest in buying it? Do you inform everyone you buy a coin from exactly how much profit you will make? If it ends up being more profitable, do you go back and tell them? Where do you draw the line of when you must inform the seller? $1, $10, $100, $1000?
There are shades of grey based on context.
You both side-stepped my question about returning a fake coin to seller at a yard sale. Would you expect a refund? What if the sign at the yard sale said "All Sales Final" or "We make no representations about the items for sale".
You replied to a post from @jmlanzaf, quoting him and asked a question. And since I didn’t respond to that question, you feel that I sidestepped it?
I’ll keep that in mind if I ask someone a question and you fail to respond.😉
But no, I wouldn’t return a counterfeit coin that i bought at a yard sale, even though I’d have a legal right to do so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@BStrauss3 said:
You know what the ethical thing to do is.
Trillions of electrons are wasted trying to justify a lack of ethics.
Agreed. And the same people advocating for it would be furious if a dealer bought a coin from them for a couple bucks only to turn around and sell it as a rare variety.
Completely different situation. The dealer is in a position of trust and authority. The dealer is approached by customers precisely because of their expertise. Experts owe a standard of care when customers solicit their services.
Yard sale buyers owe no such duty to inform sellers. Yard sales are understood to be places of bargain hunting. If there were no prospect of a bargain, many buyers would not bother to show up. Used goods can be bought at retail in all manner of other venues.
If the yard sale coin or holder turned out to fake, and you bought it (at any price), would you demand the yard sale seller give you a refund? Are they ethically required to do so? They aren’t a coin expert or even a collector.
Of course a buyer may decide to be generous (and good for them!) but it’s not ethically required.
Before I ask my question, for the record, I believe that in the original scenario, the buyer should pay the seller additional funds. Now for my question - Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?
While this is not the greatest problem facing the world, I do find the opinions on this thread a little troublesome. They expect the world (dealers) to treat them with integrity but they don't seem to feel the same duty to treat their neighbors that way.
Dealers are just neighbors who hung up a shingle. Many of them are novices. And then it's okay for the customer to cherry pick them, trading on the customer expertise but the dealer is obligated to not trade on their expertise? That's an awfully fine (invisible?) line. In both scenarios there is a buyer and a seller, "dealer" is not a separate category.
Would a dealer have a higher standard if they were the buyer at the yard sale?
You are sidestepping the nuance of context which is recognized in law and tradition. Laypeople are not held to the same standard as a professional offering services in their capacity as a professional. Doctors, lawyers, paramedics, real estate agents, financial advisors and many others in society are all held to higher standards when acting in an official capacity. Of course, that doesn't mean they can act dishonestly (fraudulently) outside of their professional capacity, but there is a distinction when you hold out yourself as a professional. These professions also have inexperienced or incompetent practitioners - they are still held to a higher standard. Dealers should be held to a higher standard when acting in a professional capacity.
So to answer @MFeld "Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?"
No - the dealer must pay a fair price either way. just as a mechanic must provide their best diagnosis and repair regardless of what the customer may believe is wrong with their car.
@jmlanzaf - Do you call up the auction house when you see an unattributed variety? Do you message eBay sellers? What about a junk-bin find at a show? Is there an obligation to inform a seller their coin is more valuable even if you have no interest in buying it? Do you inform everyone you buy a coin from exactly how much profit you will make? If it ends up being more profitable, do you go back and tell them? Where do you draw the line of when you must inform the seller? $1, $10, $100, $1000?
There are shades of grey based on context.
You both side-stepped my question about returning a fake coin to seller at a yard sale. Would you expect a refund? What if the sign at the yard sale said "All Sales Final" or "We make no representations about the items for sale".
You replied to a post from @jmlanzaf, quoting him and asked a question. And since I didn’t respond to that question, you feel that I sidestepped it?
I’ll keep that in mind if I ask someone a question and you fail to respond.😉
But no, I wouldn’t return a counterfeit coin that i bought at a yard sale, even though I’d have a legal right to do so.
It probably would be a good idea to keep that in mind if you hit "like" and "agree" on his posts and make similar points,
@Pizzaman said:
If it were a sweet old lady, and if it looked like she could really use the money, I'd tell. If it were anybody else, that's their hard luck.
Meet Arizona Donnie Clark, better known as Kate or "Ma" Barker...
@BStrauss3 said:
You know what the ethical thing to do is.
Trillions of electrons are wasted trying to justify a lack of ethics.
Agreed. And the same people advocating for it would be furious if a dealer bought a coin from them for a couple bucks only to turn around and sell it as a rare variety.
Completely different situation. The dealer is in a position of trust and authority. The dealer is approached by customers precisely because of their expertise. Experts owe a standard of care when customers solicit their services.
Yard sale buyers owe no such duty to inform sellers. Yard sales are understood to be places of bargain hunting. If there were no prospect of a bargain, many buyers would not bother to show up. Used goods can be bought at retail in all manner of other venues.
If the yard sale coin or holder turned out to fake, and you bought it (at any price), would you demand the yard sale seller give you a refund? Are they ethically required to do so? They aren’t a coin expert or even a collector.
Of course a buyer may decide to be generous (and good for them!) but it’s not ethically required.
Before I ask my question, for the record, I believe that in the original scenario, the buyer should pay the seller additional funds. Now for my question - Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?
While this is not the greatest problem facing the world, I do find the opinions on this thread a little troublesome. They expect the world (dealers) to treat them with integrity but they don't seem to feel the same duty to treat their neighbors that way.
Dealers are just neighbors who hung up a shingle. Many of them are novices. And then it's okay for the customer to cherry pick them, trading on the customer expertise but the dealer is obligated to not trade on their expertise? That's an awfully fine (invisible?) line. In both scenarios there is a buyer and a seller, "dealer" is not a separate category.
Would a dealer have a higher standard if they were the buyer at the yard sale?
You are sidestepping the nuance of context which is recognized in law and tradition. Laypeople are not held to the same standard as a professional offering services in their capacity as a professional. Doctors, lawyers, paramedics, real estate agents, financial advisors and many others in society are all held to higher standards when acting in an official capacity. Of course, that doesn't mean they can act dishonestly (fraudulently) outside of their professional capacity, but there is a distinction when you hold out yourself as a professional. These professions also have inexperienced or incompetent practitioners - they are still held to a higher standard. Dealers should be held to a higher standard when acting in a professional capacity.
So to answer @MFeld "Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?"
No - the dealer must pay a fair price either way. just as a mechanic must provide their best diagnosis and repair regardless of what the customer may believe is wrong with their car.
@jmlanzaf - Do you call up the auction house when you see an unattributed variety? Do you message eBay sellers? What about a junk-bin find at a show? Is there an obligation to inform a seller their coin is more valuable even if you have no interest in buying it? Do you inform everyone you buy a coin from exactly how much profit you will make? If it ends up being more profitable, do you go back and tell them? Where do you draw the line of when you must inform the seller? $1, $10, $100, $1000?
There are shades of grey based on context.
You both side-stepped my question about returning a fake coin to seller at a yard sale. Would you expect a refund? What if the sign at the yard sale said "All Sales Final" or "We make no representations about the items for sale".
Different scenario. If I agree to the terms of the sale, including no returns. I would feel bound by it. But that has nothing to do with the original scenario.
Legalities have nothing to do with it. A dealer has no legal obligation to disclose either UNLESS you are paying him for an expert opinion.
I have informed auction houses of problems in their listings. The ones who know me, pull the lots or modify the listings. This forum frequently reports problems to ebay and to eBay sellers.
I do tell people I buy from what the retail price is and what my offer is. I don't hide anything nor do I try to make big scores. I also tell the same thing to dealers I buy from. That is why people come back to me.
I also tell all people they should get a second offer.
You have an awfully low opinion of your fellow man.
About 20 years ago when I moved into this quiet small oceanfront community on Vancouver Island, I attended my first event there: the annual book sale of the town, happening in the town hall on a sunny Saturday morning.
Over 2000 books were up for grabs from 50 cents to 10 dollars rows of books. These books were all donated by people and estates from around the area.
I was about the 3rd person in on a Saturday morning. 10 steps and I saw what I just had to have... A Webster's English dictionary printed in 1912 if I remember right. the volume is about, NO joke, 8" thick!
This was going to be my Saturday Morning read... took it home made some java and opened the huge book.....
It opened for me by itself on the page where way back, way back, someone used a 1917 Can. Bank of Commerce $20
Banknote as a reading mark... I guess ??? or as a piggybank?
well, what a day to find a then already worth around $ 1800 treasure. What do I do???
Keep it of course to sell it. I had no issue with that, I legally purchased the book as is... and had no issues keeping it.
However, I did donate $ 50 to the townshall social club there a few weeks later.
This has nothing to do with beeing dishonest.
Same as a garage -seller should know his prices.
H
@BStrauss3 said:
You know what the ethical thing to do is.
Trillions of electrons are wasted trying to justify a lack of ethics.
Agreed. And the same people advocating for it would be furious if a dealer bought a coin from them for a couple bucks only to turn around and sell it as a rare variety.
Completely different situation. The dealer is in a position of trust and authority. The dealer is approached by customers precisely because of their expertise. Experts owe a standard of care when customers solicit their services.
Yard sale buyers owe no such duty to inform sellers. Yard sales are understood to be places of bargain hunting. If there were no prospect of a bargain, many buyers would not bother to show up. Used goods can be bought at retail in all manner of other venues.
If the yard sale coin or holder turned out to fake, and you bought it (at any price), would you demand the yard sale seller give you a refund? Are they ethically required to do so? They aren’t a coin expert or even a collector.
Of course a buyer may decide to be generous (and good for them!) but it’s not ethically required.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Both cases involve two human beings deciding how to treat one another. In both instances, the seller is ignorant and the buyer can profit from that ignorance.
If "experts owe a standard of care", why doesn't the expert yard sale buyer have the same duty as the expert coin dealer buyer? You didn't pay the coin dealer for an expert opinion. You sold him a coin at a price you agreed to. You might even have set the price for him in the hypothetical.
Because there is no expectation at a yard sale that either the seller or buyer is an expert in the goods being transacted.
Nice dodge, or maybe not. Expectations aside, the original question involved an expert buyer. So there is an expert buyer taking advantage of the novice seller.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Both cases involve two human beings deciding how to treat one another.
How do you feel about the ethics of passing judgement on others or intentionally provoking others on internet forums?
I didn't call out anyone in particular. In fact, originally I only said that I was troubled by some comments. So, again, you are shifting the discussion.
Buyers be aware.....and assume the seller has no idea ... Items are always as is.....UNLESS otherwise marked or told/
However, if it is obvious that at a garage sale, someone sells Fakes galore... call the police!
It's then not a garage sale it is a dumping place for fakes.
H
@BStrauss3 said:
You know what the ethical thing to do is.
Trillions of electrons are wasted trying to justify a lack of ethics.
Agreed. And the same people advocating for it would be furious if a dealer bought a coin from them for a couple bucks only to turn around and sell it as a rare variety.
Completely different situation. The dealer is in a position of trust and authority. The dealer is approached by customers precisely because of their expertise. Experts owe a standard of care when customers solicit their services.
Yard sale buyers owe no such duty to inform sellers. Yard sales are understood to be places of bargain hunting. If there were no prospect of a bargain, many buyers would not bother to show up. Used goods can be bought at retail in all manner of other venues.
If the yard sale coin or holder turned out to fake, and you bought it (at any price), would you demand the yard sale seller give you a refund? Are they ethically required to do so? They aren’t a coin expert or even a collector.
Of course a buyer may decide to be generous (and good for them!) but it’s not ethically required.
Before I ask my question, for the record, I believe that in the original scenario, the buyer should pay the seller additional funds. Now for my question - Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?
While this is not the greatest problem facing the world, I do find the opinions on this thread a little troublesome. They expect the world (dealers) to treat them with integrity but they don't seem to feel the same duty to treat their neighbors that way.
Dealers are just neighbors who hung up a shingle. Many of them are novices. And then it's okay for the customer to cherry pick them, trading on the customer expertise but the dealer is obligated to not trade on their expertise? That's an awfully fine (invisible?) line. In both scenarios there is a buyer and a seller, "dealer" is not a separate category.
Would a dealer have a higher standard if they were the buyer at the yard sale?
You are sidestepping the nuance of context which is recognized in law and tradition. Laypeople are not held to the same standard as a professional offering services in their capacity as a professional. Doctors, lawyers, paramedics, real estate agents, financial advisors and many others in society are all held to higher standards when acting in an official capacity. Of course, that doesn't mean they can act dishonestly (fraudulently) outside of their professional capacity, but there is a distinction when you hold out yourself as a professional. These professions also have inexperienced or incompetent practitioners - they are still held to a higher standard. Dealers should be held to a higher standard when acting in a professional capacity.
So to answer @MFeld "Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?"
No - the dealer must pay a fair price either way. just as a mechanic must provide their best diagnosis and repair regardless of what the customer may believe is wrong with their car.
@jmlanzaf - Do you call up the auction house when you see an unattributed variety? Do you message eBay sellers? What about a junk-bin find at a show? Is there an obligation to inform a seller their coin is more valuable even if you have no interest in buying it? Do you inform everyone you buy a coin from exactly how much profit you will make? If it ends up being more profitable, do you go back and tell them? Where do you draw the line of when you must inform the seller? $1, $10, $100, $1000?
There are shades of grey based on context.
You both side-stepped my question about returning a fake coin to seller at a yard sale. Would you expect a refund? What if the sign at the yard sale said "All Sales Final" or "We make no representations about the items for sale".
Different scenario. If I agree to the terms of the sale, including no returns. I would feel bound by it. But that has nothing to do with the original scenario.
Legalities have nothing to do with it. A dealer has no legal obligation to disclose either UNLESS you are paying him for an expert opinion.
I have informed auction houses of problems in their listings. The ones who know me, pull the lots or modify the listings. This forum frequently reports problems to ebay and to eBay sellers.
I do tell people I buy from what the retail price is and what my offer is. I don't hide anything nor do I try to make big scores. I also tell the same thing to dealers I buy from. That is why people come back to me.
I also tell all people they should get a second offer.
You have an awfully low opinion of your fellow man.
Just for the record, I have never “made a big score” or tried to hide any material information during any coin or other business deal. I have had my face ripped off on a deal and am a realist regarding human nature.
How many followup checks have you written after you sold something for more than you expected? What’s your cutoff? $10, $100? Do you split it or pass it all back to the seller? Do you really take all the risk but always share the reward?
I don’t see a huge moral fault in folks who make a score at a yard sale or make a pickup off eBay. It’s a perspective of who owns that found value. Different people can have different perspectives that are ethical. Variance in found treasure law across different countries is a good example of how found value is treated across different ethical perspectives.
This forum frequently reports problems to ebay and to eBay sellers.
Please provide an example of when this forum told an eBay seller that their coin was actually worth significantly more than the BIN price.
That's an entirely different scenario than when the forum messages sellers that their listings are inaccurate in an effort to provide consumer protection to potential buyers.
These debates are always interesting, and provide some insight to various member's claim to honesty and honor, and for others, how far they want to twist and apply the mention of honesty and honor to different (but somehow similar?) scenarios.
.
To the OP's question, as asked (warning, you might think less of me after reading);
I would buy them, and maybe even haggle just enough not to seem to eager and not be buying the other two or three for insane prices. I say this because any other scenario could mean they don't sell them to me.
Especially if I decided to sell the Black Holder, I would go back and give them some of the profit, explaining that one of the coins was a rarer find that I didn't calculate for when I bought them, and I felt that I should pay them more for that.
I might do exactly the same if I kept the Black Holder.
It probably wouldn't be a lot ... depending on how I felt about them. Of course, it would have to feel right to me based on the excess "value" I received.
It's hard to quantify without real numbers, but giving too much back might backfire with a situation I wouldn't want to deal with or explain. And I agree with @braddick ... I spent an inordinate amount of time learning, understanding and knowing things about this hobby that at least 99% of the population has no clue about. It's nice to reap some reward from that knowledge occasionally.
My return visit would probably just be a, "Hey, I made a mistake. I looked in the mirror. I wanted to make sure you came out better than when I left the other day, because I did", coupled with the number of $50. bills I felt was necessary.
.
On a side note, some of the answers here showed great wit and were FANTASTICALLY funny!
@pursuitofliberty said:
These debates are always interesting, and provide some insight to various member's claim to honesty and honor, and for others, how far they want to twist and apply the mention of honesty and honor to different (but somehow similar?) scenarios.
.
To the OP's question, as asked (warning, you might think less of me after reading);
I would buy them, and maybe even haggle just enough not to seem to eager and not be buying the other two or three for insane prices. I say this because any other scenario could mean they don't sell them to me.
Especially if I decided to sell the Black Holder, I would go back and give them some of the profit, explaining that one of the coins was a rarer find that I didn't calculate for when I bought them, and I felt that I should pay them more for that.
I might do exactly the same if I kept the Black Holder.
It probably wouldn't be a lot ... depending on how I felt about them. Of course, it would have to feel right to me based on the excess "value" I received.
It's hard to quantify without real numbers, but giving too much back might backfire with a situation I wouldn't want to deal with or explain. And I agree with @braddick ... I spent an inordinate amount of time learning, understanding and knowing things about this hobby that at least 99% of the population has no clue about. It's nice to reap some reward from that knowledge occasionally.
My return visit would probably just be a, "Hey, I made a mistake. I looked in the mirror. I wanted to make sure you came out better than when I left the other day, because I did", coupled with the number of $50. bills I felt was necessary.
.
On a side note, some of the answers here showed great wit and were FANTASTICALLY funny!
Why do you feel it’s ethical to purchase the coin without telling the seller upfront only to give money back later?
Shouldn’t the seller have the benefit of making a choice about how to maximize their profit and have a say in how the proceeds should be split?
If you failed to maximize the profit, did you do them a disservice?
And what is fair compensation? Is it okay to alter the compensation based on “how I felt about them”?
#
I shouldn't respond, but I'll bite.
I paid (in lieu of any negotiation) what they originally asked.
If they asked me point blank what I thought they were worth, that would mean they were trying to maximize their profit with me, and being an honest person, I would be in a bit of a dilemma, and this scenario would all change. I know 'probably' how I would handle it, and they would 'probably' come out ahead.
My job is as a Design Manager and Senior Group Manager at a very large private company. It is NOT to make a garage sale seller money by sharing my intricate hobby knowledge.
Yeah, I feel it's totally ethical to treat you differently based on how I feel about you ... both in the hobby, and in business. I can assure you I give different prices to different people from coins I sell (and am willing to buy from) in this hobby, and I do the same to Contractors and Customers I work with in business.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
@BStrauss3 said:
You know what the ethical thing to do is.
Trillions of electrons are wasted trying to justify a lack of ethics.
Agreed. And the same people advocating for it would be furious if a dealer bought a coin from them for a couple bucks only to turn around and sell it as a rare variety.
Completely different situation. The dealer is in a position of trust and authority. The dealer is approached by customers precisely because of their expertise. Experts owe a standard of care when customers solicit their services.
Yard sale buyers owe no such duty to inform sellers. Yard sales are understood to be places of bargain hunting. If there were no prospect of a bargain, many buyers would not bother to show up. Used goods can be bought at retail in all manner of other venues.
If the yard sale coin or holder turned out to fake, and you bought it (at any price), would you demand the yard sale seller give you a refund? Are they ethically required to do so? They aren’t a coin expert or even a collector.
Of course a buyer may decide to be generous (and good for them!) but it’s not ethically required.
Before I ask my question, for the record, I believe that in the original scenario, the buyer should pay the seller additional funds. Now for my question - Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?
While this is not the greatest problem facing the world, I do find the opinions on this thread a little troublesome. They expect the world (dealers) to treat them with integrity but they don't seem to feel the same duty to treat their neighbors that way.
Dealers are just neighbors who hung up a shingle. Many of them are novices. And then it's okay for the customer to cherry pick them, trading on the customer expertise but the dealer is obligated to not trade on their expertise? That's an awfully fine (invisible?) line. In both scenarios there is a buyer and a seller, "dealer" is not a separate category.
Would a dealer have a higher standard if they were the buyer at the yard sale?
You are sidestepping the nuance of context which is recognized in law and tradition. Laypeople are not held to the same standard as a professional offering services in their capacity as a professional. Doctors, lawyers, paramedics, real estate agents, financial advisors and many others in society are all held to higher standards when acting in an official capacity. Of course, that doesn't mean they can act dishonestly (fraudulently) outside of their professional capacity, but there is a distinction when you hold out yourself as a professional. These professions also have inexperienced or incompetent practitioners - they are still held to a higher standard. Dealers should be held to a higher standard when acting in a professional capacity.
So to answer @MFeld "Would you draw any distinction between an unknowledgeable seller going to a coin shop and asking for an offer on a coin vs. going in and telling the dealer what he wants for his coin (with the asking price being 10%-20% of fair market value)? In other words, do you feel that the dealer has a duty to offer or pay a fair price, either way?"
No - the dealer must pay a fair price either way. just as a mechanic must provide their best diagnosis and repair regardless of what the customer may believe is wrong with their car.
@jmlanzaf - Do you call up the auction house when you see an unattributed variety? Do you message eBay sellers? What about a junk-bin find at a show? Is there an obligation to inform a seller their coin is more valuable even if you have no interest in buying it? Do you inform everyone you buy a coin from exactly how much profit you will make? If it ends up being more profitable, do you go back and tell them? Where do you draw the line of when you must inform the seller? $1, $10, $100, $1000?
There are shades of grey based on context.
You both side-stepped my question about returning a fake coin to seller at a yard sale. Would you expect a refund? What if the sign at the yard sale said "All Sales Final" or "We make no representations about the items for sale".
Different scenario. If I agree to the terms of the sale, including no returns. I would feel bound by it. But that has nothing to do with the original scenario.
Legalities have nothing to do with it. A dealer has no legal obligation to disclose either UNLESS you are paying him for an expert opinion.
I have informed auction houses of problems in their listings. The ones who know me, pull the lots or modify the listings. This forum frequently reports problems to ebay and to eBay sellers.
I do tell people I buy from what the retail price is and what my offer is. I don't hide anything nor do I try to make big scores. I also tell the same thing to dealers I buy from. That is why people come back to me.
I also tell all people they should get a second offer.
You have an awfully low opinion of your fellow man.
Just for the record, I have never “made a big score” or tried to hide any material information during any coin or other business deal. I have had my face ripped off on a deal and am a realist regarding human nature.
How many followup checks have you written after you sold something for more than you expected? What’s your cutoff? $10, $100? Do you split it or pass it all back to the seller? Do you really take all the risk but always share the reward?
I don’t see a huge moral fault in folks who make a score at a yard sale or make a pickup off eBay. It’s a perspective of who owns that found value. Different people can have different perspectives that are ethical. Variance in found treasure law across different countries is a good example of how found value is treated across different ethical perspectives.
I've written a lot of follow-up checks. I don't know how many over 25 years. Certainly not $10 ones. Then again, i'm not on trial here.
I find most people to be highly ethical and try to get things right. I've done nearly 100,000 ebay transactions and very few of them were anything but highly ethical and very helpful in resolving problems. I am also a "realist" about human nature, any 95+% of people are very ethical and honest.
@MWallace said:
I would do for them what I would want done for me. It's that simple for me.
But not everyone wants the same thing and you can’t know what someone wants unless you ask.
I didn't say ANYTHING about what THEY would want. You don't have to know what they want. If you'd want to be treated fairly, then treat them fairly. If you'd want to be lied to or cheated, the lie and/or cheat them.
It's quite simple. The Golden Rule. Do unto others..................
It's been around and followed for thousands of years. It works 100% of the time.
I don't want to bring religion into this but I must to get my point across.
The Bible says that if you know what's right and you don't do it, then it's a sin.
@MWallace said:
I would do for them what I would want done for me. It's that simple for me.
But not everyone wants the same thing and you can’t know what someone wants unless you ask.
I didn't say ANYTHING about what THEY would want. You don't have to know what they want. If you'd want to be treated fairly, then treat them fairly. If you'd want to be lied to or cheated, the lie and/or cheat them.
It's quite simple. The Golden Rule. Do unto others..................
It's been around and followed for thousands of years. It works 100% of the time.
I don't want to bring religion into this but I must to get my point across.
The Bible says that if you know what's right and you don't do it, then it's a sin.
Maybe we are making different points - thanks for clarifying. My point is that you can't assume how other people would like to handle a given situation or what their goals are without asking.
Many of the responses here suggest the best path is to buy the coin without mentioning the value and later follow up with a check. If the seller is entitled to additional value, shouldn't they also have a say in the split of proceeds and how the coin is marketed/sold? Shouldn't they get the chance to shop around?
Your yard sale seller may want immediate cash, may prefer the coin to be sent in for CAC stickering to try to maximize profit, or may want to consign to auction and accept the risk that the coin sells for less (or more).
While there are dishonest sellers there is no such thing as a dishonest buyer unless he pays you with counterfeit money.
You go to a yard sale looking for bargains, you're hoping the seller doesn't know the true value of what he is selling - it's a clearance sale, you are not taking advantage of the seller. No different than finding a "you suck" score on ebay.
all garage sales are final, you're getting a bargain but you have to consider "does it work (or is it fake)?" before you jump on the bargain.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
@derryb said:
1. black holder to me is no premium.
2. You go to a yard sale looking for bargains, you're hoping the seller doesn't know the true value of what he is selling - it's a clearance sale.
3. all garage sales are final, you're getting a bargain but you have to consider "does it work?" before you jump on the bargain.
1) A black holder is worth a very large premium to a good sized group of people. If you, as a buyer, are unaware of that, it would be unfair for anyone to criticize you for not paying extra for the coin.
2) That sounds accurate.
3) That’s not a valid comparison. In the hypothetical presented, the buyer knows it “works”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@derryb said:
1. black holder to me is no premium.
2. You go to a yard sale looking for bargains, you're hoping the seller doesn't know the true value of what he is selling - it's a clearance sale.
3. all garage sales are final, you're getting a bargain but you have to consider "does it work?" before you jump on the bargain.
1) A black holder is worth a very large premium to a good sized group of people. If you, as a buyer, are unaware of that, it would be unfair for anyone to criticize you for not paying extra for the coin.
Like most collectors I'm not a label (or color of slab) collector and am not willing to pay the premium
2) That sounds accurate.
3) That’s not a valid comparison. In the hypothetical presented, the buyer knows it “works”.
As a garage sale traveler there are many items that a buyer has to take a chance on. in the case of a coin and even the holder, "is it counterfeit?"
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Yard and House sales are often a means for the seller to get rid of items quickly. Often left over items are donated to a local charity. Is getting a "steal" at a yard sale any different than getting a "steal" at an auction?
@MWallace said:
I would do for them what I would want done for me. It's that simple for me.
But not everyone wants the same thing and you can’t know what someone wants unless you ask.
I didn't say ANYTHING about what THEY would want. You don't have to know what they want. If you'd want to be treated fairly, then treat them fairly. If you'd want to be lied to or cheated, the lie and/or cheat them.
It's quite simple. The Golden Rule. Do unto others..................
It's been around and followed for thousands of years. It works 100% of the time.
I don't want to bring religion into this but I must to get my point across.
The Bible says that if you know what's right and you don't do it, then it's a sin.
Maybe we are making different points - thanks for clarifying. My point is that you can't assume how other people would like to handle a given situation or what their goals are without asking.
Many of the responses here suggest the best path is to buy the coin without mentioning the value and later follow up with a check. If the seller is entitled to additional value, shouldn't they also have a say in the split of proceeds and how the coin is marketed/sold? Shouldn't they get the chance to shop around?
Your yard sale seller may want immediate cash, may prefer the coin to be sent in for CAC stickering to try to maximize profit, or may want to consign to auction and accept the risk that the coin sells for less (or more).
The possible options you mentioned would certainly be better for the seller. However, I’d factor-in the chances of anyone presenting them to him and compare them to the odds of another knowledgeable buyer paying much, if anything over the asking price.
My guess is that if I were to buy the coin and later split the profit with the seller, he’d likely end up better off than if I weren’t there. And at the same time, I’d still make a nice profit.
Still, you have raised good questions/points regarding where and to what extent lines should be drawn. It’s a very slippery slope.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
seller set a price, buyer liked it and a deal was made. It is not dishonest to profit on a yard sale purchase. It's why any dealer of any category of merchandise goes to yard sales. It's OK to brag about a score on ebay (with many kudos from forum members). What makes a yard sale any different?
What is different is when a dealer is asked by a coin owner for an appraisal (opinion) and the dealer lies in hopes of a "score." A garage seller isn't asking for your appraisal and you are not obligated to give it on items he is selling. If you disagree with this then just tell him it is underpriced.
It it makes one sleep better at night to correct the seller or split the later profit then go for it. But to call one for dishonest for not doing so is incorrect.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
11 years ago my sister and I hired a realtor (with 40+ years in the business) to sell our family home. It has been built in the 1920s and my parents bought it in the mid 1960s. Prior to the sale I had the property metal detected and ended up finding multiple coins dating from the late 1800s to the mid 1900s (that was fun).
I mentioned this to the realtor and he told me a story about a property sale that he represented the buyer in. The sale took place in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
The property was an older home in Denver, Colorado that had been built in latter part of the 1800s. The property was in a rough part of town, was run down and was in need of repairs/improvements. The buyer paid $60,000.00 to purchase this fixer upper.
After the sale closed and the buyer took possession of the property he started to go through the home, to clean it out and to get it ready for improvement projects. As he was doing this he ended up looking behind the heating vent covers and into the heating duct work. In doing so he saw a box stored in the heating duct. He removed the vent cover, retrieved the box, opened the box and found............................................ vintage US currency of over $60,000.00.
In summary the buyer paid $60,000.00 for a fixer upper house that had hidden within it over $60,000.00 in currency. A Free House. The realtor told me that the buyer kept the money.
It is possible that the seller of the property acquired it, owned it and sold it without ever knowing of the box hidden in the heating duct. It is possible that the box with the currency was placed in the heating duct by a prior owner standing 4 or 5 or 6 places back in the line of the owners who had at one time owned the property.
What do you think the buyer who found the hidden box with the vintage currency in it should have done? Should he have contacted the seller, researched the ownership history and contacted all prior owners in the ownership chain of title to the property (or their heirs) [to determine who placed the box with the currency into the heating duct], contacted the police or something else?
The vintage currency could have been stolen as some time in the distant past; or it could have been lawfully owned by the person who placed the box in the heating duct (who forgot about it; or who died without anyone knowing about it).
I am not sure what I would have done if I had bought the property and found the box of vintage currency hidden in the heating duct (other than I would have definitely gone through, looked at, photographed, made a list of and looked up the values of each and every piece of currency simply for the experience of doing so).
What would you do if you had bought the property and found the box of vintage currency?
@derryb said:
seller set a price, buyer liked it and a deal was made. It is not dishonest to profit on a yard sale purchase. It's why any dealer of any category of merchandise goes to yard sales. It's OK to brag about a score on ebay (with many kudos from forum members). What makes a yard sale any different?
What is different is when a dealer is asked by a coin owner for an appraisal (opinion) and the dealer lies in hopes of a "score." A garage seller isn't asking for your appraisal and you are not obligated to give it on items he is selling. If you disagree with this then just tell him it is underpriced.
It it makes one sleep better at night to correct the seller or split the later profit then go for it. But to call one for dishonest for not doing so is incorrect.
I don’t want to read through the thread again to check, but I don’t recall anyone saying that a buyer who wouldn’t pay extra was “dishonest”. If that view was expressed, it would appear to be in the small minority.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don’t want to read through the thread again to check, but I don’t recall anyone saying that a buyer who wouldn’t pay extra was “dishonest”. If that view was expressed, it would appear to be in the small minority.
It's in the thread title
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
While walking my dog I usually daydream about finding money. Once walking back home it started to pour. I was rushing but in the gutter saw something interesting. It was a wallet with about $170. Everything was soaked including all the documents and money. Wallet must have there overnight (it had rained all night) For a quick second I thought that’s a nice find but I walked in the soaking rain half a block back to the house and rang the door bell a few times until the guy came out. Looked at the wallet and offered me $50, I said no I would like someone to do the same (return mine if I lost it). Guy goes I didn’t even realize it was missing, I think most people would have taken the cash and chuck it.
The OP posted a hypothetical, I believe a few of us think what we would do but until that actually happens it’s all hypothetical. Judging one on there decisions based on a scenario doesn’t mean we would actually do that. We wouldn’t know as it would probably never happen.
@hfjacinto said:
While walking my dog I usually daydream about finding money. Once walking back home it started to pour. I was rushing but in the gutter saw something interesting. It was a wallet with about $170. Everything was soaked including all the documents and money. Wallet must have there overnight (it had rained all night) For a quick second I thought that’s a nice find but I walked in the soaking rain half a block back to the house and rang the door bell a few times until the guy came out. Looked at the wallet and offered me $50, I said no I would like someone to do the same (return mine if I lost it). Guy goes I didn’t even realize it was missing, I think most people would have taken the cash and chuck it.
The OP posted a hypothetical, I believe a few of us think what we would do but until that actually happens it’s all hypothetical. Judging one on there decisions based on a scenario doesn’t mean we would actually do that. We wouldn’t know as it would probably never happen.
Returning found property to the rightful owner is required by both ethics and often law.
In the yard sale situation, the owner consented to the sale at an agreeable price.
@braddick said:
Keep in mind the knowledge you have acquired when it comes to this hobby has been cultivated over the years- if not decades of your commitment and desire to learn.
There is nothing on this planet more valuable than your time. (and health)
If you have gained the knowledge required to successfully cherry-pick a value- in this case a black core NGC slabbed coin- then the benefit of your dedication is perhaps rewarded in purchasing the coin at a substantial discount.
It all reminds me of this story:
"The huge printing presses of a major Chicago newspaper began malfunctioning on the Saturday before Christmas, putting all the revenue for advertising that was to appear in the Sunday paper in jeopardy. None of the technicians could track down the problem. Finally, a frantic call was made to the retired printer who had worked with these presses for over 40 years. “We’ll pay anything; just come in and fix them,” he was told.
When he arrived, he walked around for a few minutes, surveying the presses; then he approached one of the control panels and opened it. He removed a dime from his pocket, turned a screw 1/4 of a turn, and said, “The presses will now work correctly.” After being profusely thanked, he was told to submit a bill for his work.
The bill arrived a few days later, for $10,000.00! Not wanting to pay such a huge amount for so little work, the printer was told to please itemize his charges, with the hope that he would reduce the amount once he had to identify his services. The revised bill arrived: $1.00 for turning the screw; $9,999.00 for knowing which screw to turn".
Interesting thread that really tests what seems ethically right. And what is right just might be measured by the circumstances associated with the sale. The answer is not uniform and there are instances when one can complete a transaction and have no guilt in connection with the outcome.
There are instances whereby I simply do not feel obligated to educate those that feel they need to educate me.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I don’t want to read through the thread again to check, but I don’t recall anyone saying that a buyer who wouldn’t pay extra was “dishonest”. If that view was expressed, it would appear to be in the small minority.
It's in the thread title
Come on, the thread title didn’t state that anyone was dishonest and neither did the opening post, which asked a question.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@relicsncoins said:
Let's say your spouse drags you to a yard sale and while looking at the tables you see a small box of 3 or 4 certified common date Morgan dollars all priced at today's current Redbook prices, only one of them is in an NGC black holder. What do you do?
The information provided is insufficient. It wasn’t stated whether the “NGC black holder” was a valuable old one or a “retro” holder.😉
However, assuming that it was the old/valuable black holder, * this is what I think I’d do…
I’d buy the coin (without negotiating). After I sold it, I’d pay additional money to the seller and tell him I found a buyer who was willing to pay a very strong price for it. I’m not sure how much extra I’d pay - probably half the profit.
“* this is what I think I’d do”: Unless and until we’re in a situation being contemplated, we can guess, think or be “sure” what we’d do, but not really know for certain, until the moment has actually arrived.
Also, I realize that in going back to the seller with additional money, it might open a big can of worms, but I think it would be one worth opening. Think how good you might feel about what you’d done.
But you did the work and took the risk for the extra value.
The seller at the yard sale did Neither.
You simply took their value and added your value to benefit IF there was a benefit to be had.
I don’t want to read through the thread again to check, but I don’t recall anyone saying that a buyer who wouldn’t pay extra was “dishonest”. If that view was expressed, it would appear to be in the small minority.
It's in the thread title
Come on, the thread title didn’t state that anyone was dishonest and neither did the opening post, which asked a question.
The thread title created a discussion on a hypothetical situation and between the thread title and the initial post the OP asked if it was dishonest not to bring an underpriced coin to the attention of the seller at a garage sale. My answer is a buyer has no obligation to do so and it is not dishonest to not do so.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Here is a quick, true story:
A couple of decades ago I purchased what I thought was an interesting colonial at a coin shop in Utah during travels to visit family. The dealer/owner told me he had sent it to PCGS and it came back with no opinion- not slabbed, of course- thus leading the dealer to believe it was a counterfeit. Well I knew at the time PCGS did not grade colonials and took a flyer on this copper coin- paying about $60.00.
I owned it for about a year and threw it up on eBay.
To my surprise it got to a couple of hundred dollars within a day or so and on about the second or third day of the auction I received a note from a collector I was unfamiliar with.
He told me he would pay me $3,300.00 for it right then and right now.
I killed the auction and the buyer wired me $3,300. the next day and at his request, I overnighted the colonial. Deal was done.
Well, fast forward a day or so after killing the auction and I received multiple messages telling me I had an extremely scarce piece that was worth multiples of what I sold it for.
A few months later I learned this exact coin sold for over 30K.
Lesson learned:
First, I knew enough- more than the original dealer- PCGS did not grade colonials so there was still a chance the coin was genuine.
Second, the collector I sold it to knew much more than I did as far as variety and rarity.
Was I a bit bummed?
Sure- human nature, but you know what?
To the knowledgeable go the spoils.
I am sure along the way the Utah dealer made money.
I made a nice return and the new buyer did also.
I don’t want to read through the thread again to check, but I don’t recall anyone saying that a buyer who wouldn’t pay extra was “dishonest”. If that view was expressed, it would appear to be in the small minority.
It's in the thread title
Come on, the thread title didn’t state that anyone was dishonest and neither did the opening post, which asked a question.
The thread title created a discussion on a hypothetical situation and between the thread title and the initial post the OP asked if it was dishonest not to bring an underpriced coin to the attention of the seller at a garage sale. My answer is a buyer has no obligation to do so and it is not dishonest to not do so.
As I posted before, I didn’t see where anyone said that would be dishonest. And you replied with “It’s in the thread title”, which (I’ll say again) it wasn’t.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Pizzaman said:
If it were a sweet old lady, and if it looked like she could really use the money, I'd tell. If it were anybody else, that's their hard luck.
Meet Arizona Donnie Clark, better known as Kate or "Ma" Barker...
You tell the little old lady you want to buy the three coins but tell her she had priced one way to cheap and give her an extra $500.
She thanks you for being honest and says she really knows nothing about coins but that her late husband collected them for many years. She tells you she has a large chest full of coins and offers you half the profits if you can help her sell them.
Instant karma.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
As I posted before, I didn’t see where anyone said that would be dishonest. And you replied with “It’s in the thread title”, which (I’ll say again) it wasn’t.
yet, based on some of the answers to the OP's question (basically "is it dishonest to make a coin score at a garage sale?") some here feel the buyer is obligated to inform the seller of true value. I don't know about you but if I'm obligated to do something and I don't do it then I'm being dishonest.
Why is the word dishonest being used in the thread title.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
I knew someone that would get all worked up about selling something and the finding out someone would have paid more had she waited for who knows how long she wouldn't have left money on the table (sort of speaking)
Now this person doesn't need the money but is more the type that she doesn't want another person to do well.
So many avenues these replies have taken. So many more could be taken. I will enter the roadway. What if the seller is very well to do,more that you the buyer? One who would not miss the added profit. Or you do not like the seller for previous personal reasons? But see a financial gain opportunity. Or instead of reimbursing the seller, you allay your conscience via a charitable contribution to a worthwhile cause. You see the hypotheticals are endless.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
I'd probably donate the extra money to a good efficient humanitarian charity. The sleazy thing to do even if you're buying way below true value is to still try to chisel. It can open up a can of worms if you go back to the customer and tell them that you bought significantly below true value.
I'd probably donate the extra money to a good efficient humanitarian charity. The sleazy thing to do even if you're buying way below true value is to still try to chisel. It can open up a can of worms if you go back to the customer and tell them that you bought significantly below true value.
Those are the responses I don't understand. I can see the "just buy it" responses. I really don't understand why someone would feel the need to try to get it even more cheaply.
@Pizzaman said:
If it were a sweet old lady, and if it looked like she could really use the money, I'd tell. If it were anybody else, that's their hard luck.
I wanted to add this to my previous post as I agree wholeheartedly with it.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
You tell the little old lady you want to buy the three coins but tell her she had priced one way to cheap and give her an extra $500.
She thanks you for being honest and says she really knows nothing about coins but that her late husband collected them for many years. She tells you she has a large chest full of coins and offers you half the profits if you can help her sell them.
You tell the little old lady you want to buy the three coins but tell her she had priced one way to cheap and give her an extra $500.
She thanks you for being honest and says she really knows nothing about coins but that her late husband collected them for many years. She tells you she has a large chest full of coins and offers you half the profits if you can help her sell them.
Instant karma.
And as you walk from the driveway to her garage to check out this treasure chest of coins a wheel has broken off a jumbo jet flying overhead and lands on the two of you.
Comments
Because there is no expectation at a yard sale that either the seller or buyer is an expert in the goods being transacted.
How do you feel about the ethics of passing judgement on others or intentionally provoking others on internet forums?
If it were a sweet old lady, and if it looked like she could really use the money, I'd tell. If it were anybody else, that's their hard luck.
You replied to a post from @jmlanzaf, quoting him and asked a question. And since I didn’t respond to that question, you feel that I sidestepped it?
I’ll keep that in mind if I ask someone a question and you fail to respond.😉
But no, I wouldn’t return a counterfeit coin that i bought at a yard sale, even though I’d have a legal right to do so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It probably would be a good idea to keep that in mind if you hit "like" and "agree" on his posts and make similar points,
Meet Arizona Donnie Clark, better known as Kate or "Ma" Barker...
https://images.app.goo.gl/mHquazvZy42uN3GJ7
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Different scenario. If I agree to the terms of the sale, including no returns. I would feel bound by it. But that has nothing to do with the original scenario.
Legalities have nothing to do with it. A dealer has no legal obligation to disclose either UNLESS you are paying him for an expert opinion.
I have informed auction houses of problems in their listings. The ones who know me, pull the lots or modify the listings. This forum frequently reports problems to ebay and to eBay sellers.
I do tell people I buy from what the retail price is and what my offer is. I don't hide anything nor do I try to make big scores. I also tell the same thing to dealers I buy from. That is why people come back to me.
I also tell all people they should get a second offer.
You have an awfully low opinion of your fellow man.
About 20 years ago when I moved into this quiet small oceanfront community on Vancouver Island, I attended my first event there: the annual book sale of the town, happening in the town hall on a sunny Saturday morning.
Over 2000 books were up for grabs from 50 cents to 10 dollars rows of books. These books were all donated by people and estates from around the area.
I was about the 3rd person in on a Saturday morning. 10 steps and I saw what I just had to have... A Webster's English dictionary printed in 1912 if I remember right. the volume is about, NO joke, 8" thick!
This was going to be my Saturday Morning read... took it home made some java and opened the huge book.....
It opened for me by itself on the page where way back, way back, someone used a 1917 Can. Bank of Commerce $20
Banknote as a reading mark... I guess ??? or as a piggybank?
well, what a day to find a then already worth around $ 1800 treasure. What do I do???
Keep it of course to sell it. I had no issue with that, I legally purchased the book as is... and had no issues keeping it.
However, I did donate $ 50 to the townshall social club there a few weeks later.
This has nothing to do with beeing dishonest.
Same as a garage -seller should know his prices.
H
Nice dodge, or maybe not. Expectations aside, the original question involved an expert buyer. So there is an expert buyer taking advantage of the novice seller.
I didn't call out anyone in particular. In fact, originally I only said that I was troubled by some comments. So, again, you are shifting the discussion.
Fake, replica or authentic
Buyers be aware.....and assume the seller has no idea ... Items are always as is.....UNLESS otherwise marked or told/
However, if it is obvious that at a garage sale, someone sells Fakes galore... call the police!
It's then not a garage sale it is a dumping place for fakes.
H
Just for the record, I have never “made a big score” or tried to hide any material information during any coin or other business deal. I have had my face ripped off on a deal and am a realist regarding human nature.
How many followup checks have you written after you sold something for more than you expected? What’s your cutoff? $10, $100? Do you split it or pass it all back to the seller? Do you really take all the risk but always share the reward?
I don’t see a huge moral fault in folks who make a score at a yard sale or make a pickup off eBay. It’s a perspective of who owns that found value. Different people can have different perspectives that are ethical. Variance in found treasure law across different countries is a good example of how found value is treated across different ethical perspectives.
Please provide an example of when this forum told an eBay seller that their coin was actually worth significantly more than the BIN price.
That's an entirely different scenario than when the forum messages sellers that their listings are inaccurate in an effort to provide consumer protection to potential buyers.
These debates are always interesting, and provide some insight to various member's claim to honesty and honor, and for others, how far they want to twist and apply the mention of honesty and honor to different (but somehow similar?) scenarios.
.
To the OP's question, as asked (warning, you might think less of me after reading);
I would buy them, and maybe even haggle just enough not to seem to eager and not be buying the other two or three for insane prices. I say this because any other scenario could mean they don't sell them to me.
Especially if I decided to sell the Black Holder, I would go back and give them some of the profit, explaining that one of the coins was a rarer find that I didn't calculate for when I bought them, and I felt that I should pay them more for that.
I might do exactly the same if I kept the Black Holder.
It probably wouldn't be a lot ... depending on how I felt about them. Of course, it would have to feel right to me based on the excess "value" I received.
It's hard to quantify without real numbers, but giving too much back might backfire with a situation I wouldn't want to deal with or explain. And I agree with @braddick ... I spent an inordinate amount of time learning, understanding and knowing things about this hobby that at least 99% of the population has no clue about. It's nice to reap some reward from that knowledge occasionally.
My return visit would probably just be a, "Hey, I made a mistake. I looked in the mirror. I wanted to make sure you came out better than when I left the other day, because I did", coupled with the number of $50. bills I felt was necessary.
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On a side note, some of the answers here showed great wit and were FANTASTICALLY funny!
Thank you for that, especially @airplanenut and @MrEureka
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I would do for them what I would want done for me. It's that simple for me.
Why do you feel it’s ethical to purchase the coin without telling the seller upfront only to give money back later?
Shouldn’t the seller have the benefit of making a choice about how to maximize their profit and have a say in how the proceeds should be split?
If you failed to maximize the profit, did you do them a disservice?
And what is fair compensation? Is it okay to alter the compensation based on “how I felt about them”?
But not everyone wants the same thing and you can’t know what someone wants unless you ask.
#
I shouldn't respond, but I'll bite.
I paid (in lieu of any negotiation) what they originally asked.
If they asked me point blank what I thought they were worth, that would mean they were trying to maximize their profit with me, and being an honest person, I would be in a bit of a dilemma, and this scenario would all change. I know 'probably' how I would handle it, and they would 'probably' come out ahead.
My job is as a Design Manager and Senior Group Manager at a very large private company. It is NOT to make a garage sale seller money by sharing my intricate hobby knowledge.
Yeah, I feel it's totally ethical to treat you differently based on how I feel about you ... both in the hobby, and in business. I can assure you I give different prices to different people from coins I sell (and am willing to buy from) in this hobby, and I do the same to Contractors and Customers I work with in business.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I've written a lot of follow-up checks. I don't know how many over 25 years. Certainly not $10 ones. Then again, i'm not on trial here.
I find most people to be highly ethical and try to get things right. I've done nearly 100,000 ebay transactions and very few of them were anything but highly ethical and very helpful in resolving problems. I am also a "realist" about human nature, any 95+% of people are very ethical and honest.
I didn't say ANYTHING about what THEY would want. You don't have to know what they want. If you'd want to be treated fairly, then treat them fairly. If you'd want to be lied to or cheated, the lie and/or cheat them.
It's quite simple. The Golden Rule. Do unto others..................
It's been around and followed for thousands of years. It works 100% of the time.
I don't want to bring religion into this but I must to get my point across.
The Bible says that if you know what's right and you don't do it, then it's a sin.
More likely / What if the yard sale sellers had a grossly, ignorant inflated idea of what they trading at?
Maybe we are making different points - thanks for clarifying. My point is that you can't assume how other people would like to handle a given situation or what their goals are without asking.
Many of the responses here suggest the best path is to buy the coin without mentioning the value and later follow up with a check. If the seller is entitled to additional value, shouldn't they also have a say in the split of proceeds and how the coin is marketed/sold? Shouldn't they get the chance to shop around?
Your yard sale seller may want immediate cash, may prefer the coin to be sent in for CAC stickering to try to maximize profit, or may want to consign to auction and accept the risk that the coin sells for less (or more).
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
1) A black holder is worth a very large premium to a good sized group of people. If you, as a buyer, are unaware of that, it would be unfair for anyone to criticize you for not paying extra for the coin.
2) That sounds accurate.
3) That’s not a valid comparison. In the hypothetical presented, the buyer knows it “works”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Like most collectors I'm not a label (or color of slab) collector and am not willing to pay the premium
As a garage sale traveler there are many items that a buyer has to take a chance on. in the case of a coin and even the holder, "is it counterfeit?"
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Yard and House sales are often a means for the seller to get rid of items quickly. Often left over items are donated to a local charity. Is getting a "steal" at a yard sale any different than getting a "steal" at an auction?
The possible options you mentioned would certainly be better for the seller. However, I’d factor-in the chances of anyone presenting them to him and compare them to the odds of another knowledgeable buyer paying much, if anything over the asking price.
My guess is that if I were to buy the coin and later split the profit with the seller, he’d likely end up better off than if I weren’t there. And at the same time, I’d still make a nice profit.
Still, you have raised good questions/points regarding where and to what extent lines should be drawn. It’s a very slippery slope.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
seller set a price, buyer liked it and a deal was made. It is not dishonest to profit on a yard sale purchase. It's why any dealer of any category of merchandise goes to yard sales. It's OK to brag about a score on ebay (with many kudos from forum members). What makes a yard sale any different?
What is different is when a dealer is asked by a coin owner for an appraisal (opinion) and the dealer lies in hopes of a "score." A garage seller isn't asking for your appraisal and you are not obligated to give it on items he is selling. If you disagree with this then just tell him it is underpriced.
It it makes one sleep better at night to correct the seller or split the later profit then go for it. But to call one for dishonest for not doing so is incorrect.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
11 years ago my sister and I hired a realtor (with 40+ years in the business) to sell our family home. It has been built in the 1920s and my parents bought it in the mid 1960s. Prior to the sale I had the property metal detected and ended up finding multiple coins dating from the late 1800s to the mid 1900s (that was fun).
I mentioned this to the realtor and he told me a story about a property sale that he represented the buyer in. The sale took place in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
The property was an older home in Denver, Colorado that had been built in latter part of the 1800s. The property was in a rough part of town, was run down and was in need of repairs/improvements. The buyer paid $60,000.00 to purchase this fixer upper.
After the sale closed and the buyer took possession of the property he started to go through the home, to clean it out and to get it ready for improvement projects. As he was doing this he ended up looking behind the heating vent covers and into the heating duct work. In doing so he saw a box stored in the heating duct. He removed the vent cover, retrieved the box, opened the box and found............................................ vintage US currency of over $60,000.00.
In summary the buyer paid $60,000.00 for a fixer upper house that had hidden within it over $60,000.00 in currency. A Free House. The realtor told me that the buyer kept the money.
It is possible that the seller of the property acquired it, owned it and sold it without ever knowing of the box hidden in the heating duct. It is possible that the box with the currency was placed in the heating duct by a prior owner standing 4 or 5 or 6 places back in the line of the owners who had at one time owned the property.
What do you think the buyer who found the hidden box with the vintage currency in it should have done? Should he have contacted the seller, researched the ownership history and contacted all prior owners in the ownership chain of title to the property (or their heirs) [to determine who placed the box with the currency into the heating duct], contacted the police or something else?
The vintage currency could have been stolen as some time in the distant past; or it could have been lawfully owned by the person who placed the box in the heating duct (who forgot about it; or who died without anyone knowing about it).
I am not sure what I would have done if I had bought the property and found the box of vintage currency hidden in the heating duct (other than I would have definitely gone through, looked at, photographed, made a list of and looked up the values of each and every piece of currency simply for the experience of doing so).
What would you do if you had bought the property and found the box of vintage currency?
Don't buy it
I don’t want to read through the thread again to check, but I don’t recall anyone saying that a buyer who wouldn’t pay extra was “dishonest”. If that view was expressed, it would appear to be in the small minority.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's in the thread title
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
While walking my dog I usually daydream about finding money. Once walking back home it started to pour. I was rushing but in the gutter saw something interesting. It was a wallet with about $170. Everything was soaked including all the documents and money. Wallet must have there overnight (it had rained all night) For a quick second I thought that’s a nice find but I walked in the soaking rain half a block back to the house and rang the door bell a few times until the guy came out. Looked at the wallet and offered me $50, I said no I would like someone to do the same (return mine if I lost it). Guy goes I didn’t even realize it was missing, I think most people would have taken the cash and chuck it.
The OP posted a hypothetical, I believe a few of us think what we would do but until that actually happens it’s all hypothetical. Judging one on there decisions based on a scenario doesn’t mean we would actually do that. We wouldn’t know as it would probably never happen.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Returning found property to the rightful owner is required by both ethics and often law.
In the yard sale situation, the owner consented to the sale at an agreeable price.
Apples and oranges!
+1
Interesting thread that really tests what seems ethically right. And what is right just might be measured by the circumstances associated with the sale. The answer is not uniform and there are instances when one can complete a transaction and have no guilt in connection with the outcome.
There are instances whereby I simply do not feel obligated to educate those that feel they need to educate me.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Come on, the thread title didn’t state that anyone was dishonest and neither did the opening post, which asked a question.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
But you did the work and took the risk for the extra value.
The seller at the yard sale did Neither.
You simply took their value and added your value to benefit IF there was a benefit to be had.
The thread title created a discussion on a hypothetical situation and between the thread title and the initial post the OP asked if it was dishonest not to bring an underpriced coin to the attention of the seller at a garage sale. My answer is a buyer has no obligation to do so and it is not dishonest to not do so.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Here is a quick, true story:
A couple of decades ago I purchased what I thought was an interesting colonial at a coin shop in Utah during travels to visit family. The dealer/owner told me he had sent it to PCGS and it came back with no opinion- not slabbed, of course- thus leading the dealer to believe it was a counterfeit. Well I knew at the time PCGS did not grade colonials and took a flyer on this copper coin- paying about $60.00.
I owned it for about a year and threw it up on eBay.
To my surprise it got to a couple of hundred dollars within a day or so and on about the second or third day of the auction I received a note from a collector I was unfamiliar with.
He told me he would pay me $3,300.00 for it right then and right now.
I killed the auction and the buyer wired me $3,300. the next day and at his request, I overnighted the colonial. Deal was done.
Well, fast forward a day or so after killing the auction and I received multiple messages telling me I had an extremely scarce piece that was worth multiples of what I sold it for.
A few months later I learned this exact coin sold for over 30K.
Lesson learned:
First, I knew enough- more than the original dealer- PCGS did not grade colonials so there was still a chance the coin was genuine.
Second, the collector I sold it to knew much more than I did as far as variety and rarity.
Was I a bit bummed?
Sure- human nature, but you know what?
To the knowledgeable go the spoils.
I am sure along the way the Utah dealer made money.
I made a nice return and the new buyer did also.
peacockcoins
As I posted before, I didn’t see where anyone said that would be dishonest. And you replied with “It’s in the thread title”, which (I’ll say again) it wasn’t.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That’s a Botero painting.
I am a slut at neighborhood sales, I beat them down to a quarter on red line HWs—even at the kids’ tables.
—interesting thoughts in this thread.
How about another scenario?
You tell the little old lady you want to buy the three coins but tell her she had priced one way to cheap and give her an extra $500.
She thanks you for being honest and says she really knows nothing about coins but that her late husband collected them for many years. She tells you she has a large chest full of coins and offers you half the profits if you can help her sell them.
Instant karma.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
yet, based on some of the answers to the OP's question (basically "is it dishonest to make a coin score at a garage sale?") some here feel the buyer is obligated to inform the seller of true value. I don't know about you but if I'm obligated to do something and I don't do it then I'm being dishonest.
Why is the word dishonest being used in the thread title.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
I knew someone that would get all worked up about selling something and the finding out someone would have paid more had she waited for who knows how long she wouldn't have left money on the table (sort of speaking)
Now this person doesn't need the money but is more the type that she doesn't want another person to do well.
What would you make of this person?
So many avenues these replies have taken. So many more could be taken. I will enter the roadway. What if the seller is very well to do,more that you the buyer? One who would not miss the added profit. Or you do not like the seller for previous personal reasons? But see a financial gain opportunity. Or instead of reimbursing the seller, you allay your conscience via a charitable contribution to a worthwhile cause. You see the hypotheticals are endless.
I'd probably donate the extra money to a good efficient humanitarian charity. The sleazy thing to do even if you're buying way below true value is to still try to chisel. It can open up a can of worms if you go back to the customer and tell them that you bought significantly below true value.
Don't buy it> @logger7 said:
Those are the responses I don't understand. I can see the "just buy it" responses. I really don't understand why someone would feel the need to try to get it even more cheaply.
I wanted to add this to my previous post as I agree wholeheartedly with it.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
And as you walk from the driveway to her garage to check out this treasure chest of coins a wheel has broken off a jumbo jet flying overhead and lands on the two of you.
When do these scenarios end?
peacockcoins