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Get me started to define MS-60. A theoretical discussion.
Insider3
Posts: 260 ✭✭✭
I have accepted a challenge to back up my statement that defining the grade of MS-60 is easy. I'm close but in order to define a "standard" for any MS grade, we must know what Mint State indicates. That's because once I post what I think the standards for a MS-60 coin are, I don't wish to get into a disagreement with members about what MINT STATE is.
So, my definition of Mint State is the condition of a coin at the moment it is struck. That means a coin can be flatly struck and still be MS. Additionally, I'll allow anything that happens to it as it drops off the press bed. So, is a coin in the hopper that gets hit by the next coin falling into the hopper (leaving a mark) still MS?
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A newly minted coin that gets hit by another coin falling into the hopper is still "Mint State", as we use the term. But the coin is no longer in the condition it was in at the moment it was struck.
So unless you change your definition of "Mint State" that you wrote in bold font, far, far fewer coins would qualify, even if we were to grade them as high as MS68 or MS69.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I can't get involved until I finish my doctoral dissertation on quantifying the precise maximum number of angels which can dance on the head of a pin. I've been at it for 7+ years, and as yet I've been unable to resolve exactly what "dance" or "on" mean.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Brilliant.
My understanding is that MS means it was not circulated, i.e. handed from one person to another,
with the associated friction wear on the high points.
MS-60 would be such a coin, but with a lot of bag marks;
maybe even rough patches on the rim and a scratch or two.
It's mint state until someone starts rubbing their grubby little fingers all over the coin...
Here's the only ms60 I have currently. The luster is excellent but does not show well in my photo.
Ok, here’s a shot… Mint State coins exhibit all the details and imperfections imparted upon them through standard/normal (for the time) minting and handling procedures from planchet production until outside forces act upon it to degrade its intended qualities (detail, luster, congruity, etc.) to the point that these changes are noticeable under standard (for the hobby) viewing techniques.
Plenty of holes in there, to be sure, but there’s some decent beats to get the angels grooving.
And if it's a half dime or large cent?
To me it would seem that the grade MS-60 requires you to both gives something and take something away. By that I mean you must be able to give the coin a clear designation of no wear but that it must also have defects (large scratches , major hits ,no luster etc.) that keep it from a higher designation. But then I have only ever owned 1 coin that was slabbed ms 60 so am no expert. James
Good, then if we can agree with this, hopefully other members will not disagree with us. THE ONLY THING THAT CAN CHANGE A MINT STATE COIN INTO ONE THAT IS NOT IS:
Wait for it. I'll quote Sheldon:
60 Mint State "Free from any trace of wear, ..."
65
67
And that folks, is exactly why the original system used to identify coins along with a weight and photo lead to the system of grading used by us at the first TPGS and later named "technical grading" by the second TPGS that created their own version which was not the same.,
So, if we all can agree what Mint State is then I'll see if I can post a description of an MS-60, the lowest MS that we can agree on.
REMEMBER THAT THIS IS A THEORETICAL DISCUSSION to define an MS-60 coin and not an attempt to change the status quo. So let's try to stay on tract.
Perhaps a sweat lodge would help.
What if a coin is free from any trace of wear, but has a hole in it? I don't think that should qualify as "Mint State".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So many angels to count, so little time . . . . . . . . . .
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
This is not accurate. Mint state does not require lack of circulation. Similarly, "circulated" does not require actual circulation.
You can get many Mint state, even high Mint state coins (66,67) in change at the local grocerery store.
It should be center to edge mint surfaces or luster bloom but shows either impacted surfaces via handling or treatment. It can be toned or dipped that impacts luster and a combo of marks. The greater the luster the more marks or vise versa
This is one of the nicest 73s I have ever seen or owned. Full deep PL bloom but baggy as heck
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
A mint state grade is typically assigned if there's no discernible wear. But lots of coins circulate and get graded before they exhibit wear.
I think it's more accurate to state that some coins grade less than 60, even though they haven't actually circulated (not that "circulated" doesn't require actual circulation".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I guess this one fits into your definition: my definition of Mint State is the condition of a coin at the moment it is struck. This example was struck by a punch and hammer and PCGS called it Mint State.
It's not that simple. Coins with full mint luster and not a trace of friction can be pulled from circulation. As soon as they are put into a 2X2 they can be labeled as MS-whatever. Coins that are over a Century old can be found that way and we'll never know their history.
I have been reading this & the other MS60 OP with much interest to learn what others think about the grade, so I decided to take a quick stab at how some quantifiable standards could be determined.
For one, I think the standards must be defined at the denomination or maybe even series level. The below could be something to start for Morgans, the numbers and definition can change based on input from others. Know I missed some things. But think it would have to get this complicated if you really wanted a iterative, consistent process that can derive at a grade.
If this complicates the matter, then that is why there is nothing concrete, lol. Easier for experts to know one when they see it then to define a standard.
I've always thought of the grades from MS60 to MS70 as degrees of attraction.
The reason why collectors and dealers debate the various nuances of each grade
is that their personal opinion of what is attractive and what is not isn't always aligned
with other collectors and dealers.
peacockcoins
There is a simple answer; any coin without rub on the high points is mint state. This can be easily applied as long as the mint bloom is as it was struck as is true in most cases above MS-60.
The problem is it can be very very difficult to distinguish rub or wear from the myriad other things that happen to coins and the myriad changes that every uncirculated coin experiences.
I'm personally inclined to call all the "tweeners" AU-55 but the market doesn't agree so many are called MS-60 or even higher sometimes.
If we didn't have a "black and white" grading system this problem simply wouldn't even exist.
As Mark quoted above, a coin "free of any trace of wear." I'd add to that a coin free of any trace of wear that I would not want to own, because for a variety of reasons, it has negative eye appeal.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
How can a coin with a post-strike chop mark be in the condition it was in, when struck? Unless “struck” is in reference to the coin being struck with a chop mark.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What's the difference? If you can grade less than 60 without circulating then "circulated " doesn't require actual circulation. I know the literal interpretation causes confusion. However, I don't see any point in shying away from it.
If the literal interpretation causes confusion and use of the word is unnecessary, why use it?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
IMO, you are being silly because you could answer your own question. BECAUSE IT IS! Since it has no loss of design from wear it is still MS and someone chopped it. If they had not chopped it but put a test cut into the edge,
IT WOULD STILL BE MS!
Choice Unc, weak strike.
Choice Unc, rim file.
When numbers started to be used there was 60, 63, 65 - Unc, Choice Unc, Gem unc.
Any coin can be graded. Think of today's MS-70 SE. Now put a hole in it. That makes it an MS-70, with a hole. Remember, this obsolete grading system tried to describe what a coin looked like. It is a great system to teach newbies because it is easy to understand. Anyway, the dealers wanted a "real" grading system to open up the business to investors and the so-called technical system went away UNTIL... the top two TPGS were dragged kicking and screaming into grading problem coins. The way problem coins are graded today is EXACTLY the way we did it fifty years ago!
As for that Trade dollar, BLESS YOU PCGS! So that coin is graded "technically." It is MS and without the chops it would make MS-63. No need to problem grade these anymore because "Chops" have become popular. When I bought my S/C's, they were dumped in a pile of almost a hundred XF/AU's in the case as culls. I got to pick at @35. No one was rushing to buy BADLY DAMAGED coins back then.
I’m not being silly, I’m just paying more attention to what you posted than you are.
I have no issue with the Trade Dollar being graded “MS” something or other. But clearly, it’s not within your posted definition of “Mint State” - “my definition of Mint State is the condition of a coin at the moment it is struck.” Unless the coin bore a chop mark “at the moment it was struck”, it doesn’t meet your definition.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't think that's as silly as you pretend. You're the one who defined MS as being as struck. Doesn't all PMD make it not "as struck"?
Because the word has specific meaning in context. As your discussion with Skip demonstrates, you also can't say "Mint State" without an argument.
The good news is that the whole confusion prices my (our) point that a narrow irrefutable definition of a grade simply isn't possible.
You CAN ?? If the high points on a coin slid in a velvet pouch are going to show wear, how are coins going in-and-out of pockets, cash registers, being handed off, etc.....NOT going to show wear on their high points ???
Yes, you can and lots of people do it.
Some coins slide in velvet pouches a lot more (or less) than others, so results vary. At the same time, many coins in change have just come out of new rolls or have remained largely undisturbed in cash registers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, you can. One or two transfers will not generally leave any evidence of handing. Again, "circulated" or "uncirculated" have nothing to do with actual circulation, it's a state of preservation.
Coins that have never left a collector's possession can show signs of wear from "velvet pouches" or Dansco slides, etc. Conversely, coins that have spent short periods of time in actual commerce might show no signs of wear.
There was a collector here who a few months ago showed off his PCGS submission of modern coins he carried around in his pocket for a few weeks.
They all received (low) MS grades as I recall.
peacockcoins
Welcome back.
Generally they're dull lifeless; or nearly "damaged" coins that are unappealing.
I bought this 1866 $20 that NGC graded MS60, later sold it and did not understand why it got that base grade for a MS coin:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/1866-20-ms60-ngc-like-the-1865-the-1866-is-more-difficult-to-locate-in-mint-state-than-the-1872-1874-and-1875-most-su/a/267-8003.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
That is an excellent looking coin for a 60. Usually a 60 has numerous bagmarks
But would CACG call them MS?
So based on some photos above, collectors can find some graded MS60's that are not hideous, lifeless, damaged coins. There will always be outliers, good & bad for every grade.
UNC
If a coin is MS, he said (below) anything that happenes to it is some sort of PMD:
"Since it has no loss of design from wear it is still MS and someone chopped it. If they had not chopped it but put a test cut into the edge, IT WOULD STILL BE MS!.
It looks like PCGS agrees. The way I see it is all MS coins are the way they left the press and they are net graded down to the lowest level of MS-60 because of the things we see on them. Then they become colose to MS. However, the AU/MS border is now very fuzzy.
Almost impossible to find an MS60 with some sort of decent eye appeal. This is my only MS60, ever. Looks dipped with that yellowish edge toning I see a lot on dipped coins, but still has nice luster and isn't banged up. My guess is that it was so borderline AU58, they just conceded and gave it a 60. It is ANACS, so who knows?
To me this is the definition of a MS-60. Amazing luster. It's almost PL. And seemingly smashed into every other coin it could find....
My favorite MS60
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coinJP, Outhaul ,illini420,MICHAELDIXON, Fade to Black,epcjimi1,19Lyds,SNMAN,JerseyJoe, bigjpst, DMWJR , lordmarcovan, Weiss,Mfriday4962,UtahCoin,Downtown1974,pitboss,RichieURich,Bullsitter,JDsCoins,toyz4geo,jshaulis, mustanggt, SNMAN
A lot of coins shown, such as Crypto's Trade $, appear a whole lot nicer than MS60. Great examples of the hazards of grading by photo.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.