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Get me started to define MS-60. A theoretical discussion.

I have accepted a challenge to back up my statement that defining the grade of MS-60 is easy. I'm close but in order to define a "standard" for any MS grade, we must know what Mint State indicates. That's because once I post what I think the standards for a MS-60 coin are, I don't wish to get into a disagreement with members about what MINT STATE is.

So, my definition of Mint State is the condition of a coin at the moment it is struck. That means a coin can be flatly struck and still be MS. Additionally, I'll allow anything that happens to it as it drops off the press bed. So, is a coin in the hopper that gets hit by the next coin falling into the hopper (leaving a mark) still MS?

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2024 7:01AM

    A newly minted coin that gets hit by another coin falling into the hopper is still "Mint State", as we use the term. But the coin is no longer in the condition it was in at the moment it was struck.
    So unless you change your definition of "Mint State" that you wrote in bold font, far, far fewer coins would qualify, even if we were to grade them as high as MS68 or MS69.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ms71 said:
    I can't get involved until I finish my doctoral dissertation on quantifying the precise maximum number of angels which can dance on the head of a pin. I've been at it for 7+ years, and as yet I've been unable to resolve exactly what "dance" or "on" mean.

    Brilliant.

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    gtstanggtstang Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's mint state until someone starts rubbing their grubby little fingers all over the coin... :#

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    gtstanggtstang Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's the only ms60 I have currently. The luster is excellent but does not show well in my photo.

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    ShaunBC5ShaunBC5 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok, here’s a shot… Mint State coins exhibit all the details and imperfections imparted upon them through standard/normal (for the time) minting and handling procedures from planchet production until outside forces act upon it to degrade its intended qualities (detail, luster, congruity, etc.) to the point that these changes are noticeable under standard (for the hobby) viewing techniques.

    Plenty of holes in there, to be sure, but there’s some decent beats to get the angels grooving.

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    oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said:
    My understanding is that MS means it was not circulated, i.e. handed from one person to another,
    with the associated friction wear on the high points.
    MS-60 would be such a coin, but with a lot of bag marks;
    maybe even rough patches on the rim and a scratch or two.

    And if it's a half dime or large cent?

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    seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭✭

    To me it would seem that the grade MS-60 requires you to both gives something and take something away. By that I mean you must be able to give the coin a clear designation of no wear but that it must also have defects (large scratches , major hits ,no luster etc.) that keep it from a higher designation. But then I have only ever owned 1 coin that was slabbed ms 60 so am no expert. James

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    Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    A newly minted coin that gets hit by another coin falling into the hopper is still "Mint State", as we use the term. But the coin is no longer in the condition it was in at the moment it was struck.
    So unless you change your definition of "Mint State" that you wrote in bold font, far, far fewer coins would qualify, even if we were to grade them as high as MS68 or MS69.

    Good, then if we can agree with this, hopefully other members will not disagree with us. THE ONLY THING THAT CAN CHANGE A MINT STATE COIN INTO ONE THAT IS NOT IS:

    Wait for it. I'll quote Sheldon:

    60 Mint State "Free from any trace of wear, ..."
    65
    67

    And that folks, is exactly why the original system used to identify coins along with a weight and photo lead to the system of grading used by us at the first TPGS and later named "technical grading" by the second TPGS that created their own version which was not the same.,

    So, if we all can agree what Mint State is then I'll see if I can post a description of an MS-60, the lowest MS that we can agree on.

    REMEMBER THAT THIS IS A THEORETICAL DISCUSSION to define an MS-60 coin and not an attempt to change the status quo. So let's try to stay on tract.

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    Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @oldabeintx said:

    @ms71 said:
    I can't get involved until I finish my doctoral dissertation on quantifying the precise maximum number of angels which can dance on the head of a pin. I've been at it for 7+ years, and as yet I've been unable to resolve exactly what "dance" or "on" mean.

    Brilliant.

    Perhaps a sweat lodge would help.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @MFeld said:
    A newly minted coin that gets hit by another coin falling into the hopper is still "Mint State", as we use the term. But the coin is no longer in the condition it was in at the moment it was struck.
    So unless you change your definition of "Mint State" that you wrote in bold font, far, far fewer coins would qualify, even if we were to grade them as high as MS68 or MS69.

    Good, then if we can agree with this, hopefully other members will not disagree with us. THE ONLY THING THAT CAN CHANGE A MINT STATE COIN INTO ONE THAT IS NOT IS:

    Wait for it. I'll quote Sheldon:

    60 Mint State "Free from any trace of wear, ..."
    65
    67

    And that folks, is exactly why the original system used to identify coins along with a weight and photo lead to the system of grading used by us at the first TPGS and later named "technical grading" by the second TPGS that created their own version which was not the same.,

    So, if we all can agree what Mint State is then I'll see if I can post a description of an MS-60, the lowest MS that we can agree on.

    REMEMBER THAT THIS IS A THEORETICAL DISCUSSION to define an MS-60 coin and not an attempt to change the status quo. So let's try to stay on tract.

    What if a coin is free from any trace of wear, but has a hole in it? I don't think that should qualify as "Mint State".

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    ms71ms71 Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So many angels to count, so little time . . . . . . . . . .

    Successful BST transactions: EagleEye, Christos, Proofmorgan,
    Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins

    Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.

    My mind reader refuses to charge me....
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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said:
    My understanding is that MS means it was not circulated, i.e. handed from one person to another,
    with the associated friction wear on the high points.
    MS-60 would be such a coin, but with a lot of bag marks;
    maybe even rough patches on the rim and a scratch or two.

    This is not accurate. Mint state does not require lack of circulation. Similarly, "circulated" does not require actual circulation.

    You can get many Mint state, even high Mint state coins (66,67) in change at the local grocerery store.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @yosclimber said:
    My understanding is that MS means it was not circulated, i.e. handed from one person to another,
    with the associated friction wear on the high points.
    MS-60 would be such a coin, but with a lot of bag marks;
    maybe even rough patches on the rim and a scratch or two.

    This is not accurate. Mint state does not require lack of circulation. Similarly, "circulated" does not require actual circulation.

    You can get many Mint state, even high Mint state coins (66,67) in change at the local grocerery store.

    A mint state grade is typically assigned if there's no discernible wear. But lots of coins circulate and get graded before they exhibit wear.
    I think it's more accurate to state that some coins grade less than 60, even though they haven't actually circulated (not that "circulated" doesn't require actual circulation".

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    slider23slider23 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭✭

    I guess this one fits into your definition: my definition of Mint State is the condition of a coin at the moment it is struck. This example was struck by a punch and hammer and PCGS called it Mint State.

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    Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said:
    My understanding is that MS means it was not circulated, i.e. handed from one person to another,
    with the associated friction wear on the high points.
    MS-60 would be such a coin, but with a lot of bag marks;
    maybe even rough patches on the rim and a scratch or two.

    It's not that simple. Coins with full mint luster and not a trace of friction can be pulled from circulation. As soon as they are put into a 2X2 they can be labeled as MS-whatever. Coins that are over a Century old can be found that way and we'll never know their history.

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    coastaljerseyguycoastaljerseyguy Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have been reading this & the other MS60 OP with much interest to learn what others think about the grade, so I decided to take a quick stab at how some quantifiable standards could be determined.

    For one, I think the standards must be defined at the denomination or maybe even series level. The below could be something to start for Morgans, the numbers and definition can change based on input from others. Know I missed some things. But think it would have to get this complicated if you really wanted a iterative, consistent process that can derive at a grade.

    If this complicates the matter, then that is why there is nothing concrete, lol. Easier for experts to know one when they see it then to define a standard.

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,128 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've always thought of the grades from MS60 to MS70 as degrees of attraction.
    The reason why collectors and dealers debate the various nuances of each grade
    is that their personal opinion of what is attractive and what is not isn't always aligned
    with other collectors and dealers.

    peacockcoins

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    cladkingcladking Posts: 28,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is a simple answer; any coin without rub on the high points is mint state. This can be easily applied as long as the mint bloom is as it was struck as is true in most cases above MS-60.

    The problem is it can be very very difficult to distinguish rub or wear from the myriad other things that happen to coins and the myriad changes that every uncirculated coin experiences.

    I'm personally inclined to call all the "tweeners" AU-55 but the market doesn't agree so many are called MS-60 or even higher sometimes.

    If we didn't have a "black and white" grading system this problem simply wouldn't even exist.

    Tempus fugit.
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    ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,422 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As Mark quoted above, a coin "free of any trace of wear." I'd add to that a coin free of any trace of wear that I would not want to own, because for a variety of reasons, it has negative eye appeal.

    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @slider23 said:
    I guess this one fits into your definition: my definition of Mint State is the condition of a coin at the moment it is struck. This example was struck by a punch and hammer and PCGS called it Mint State.

    How can a coin with a post-strike chop mark be in the condition it was in, when struck? Unless “struck” is in reference to the coin being struck with a chop mark.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @yosclimber said:
    My understanding is that MS means it was not circulated, i.e. handed from one person to another,
    with the associated friction wear on the high points.
    MS-60 would be such a coin, but with a lot of bag marks;
    maybe even rough patches on the rim and a scratch or two.

    This is not accurate. Mint state does not require lack of circulation. Similarly, "circulated" does not require actual circulation.

    You can get many Mint state, even high Mint state coins (66,67) in change at the local grocerery store.

    A mint state grade is typically assigned if there's no discernible wear. But lots of coins circulate and get graded before they exhibit wear.
    I think it's more accurate to state that some coins grade less than 60, even though they haven't actually circulated (not that "circulated" doesn't require actual circulation".

    What's the difference? If you can grade less than 60 without circulating then "circulated " doesn't require actual circulation. I know the literal interpretation causes confusion. However, I don't see any point in shying away from it.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MFeld said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @yosclimber said:
    My understanding is that MS means it was not circulated, i.e. handed from one person to another,
    with the associated friction wear on the high points.
    MS-60 would be such a coin, but with a lot of bag marks;
    maybe even rough patches on the rim and a scratch or two.

    This is not accurate. Mint state does not require lack of circulation. Similarly, "circulated" does not require actual circulation.

    You can get many Mint state, even high Mint state coins (66,67) in change at the local grocerery store.

    A mint state grade is typically assigned if there's no discernible wear. But lots of coins circulate and get graded before they exhibit wear.
    I think it's more accurate to state that some coins grade less than 60, even though they haven't actually circulated (not that "circulated" doesn't require actual circulation".

    What's the difference? If you can grade less than 60 without circulating then "circulated " doesn't require actual circulation. I know the literal interpretation causes confusion. However, I don't see any point in shying away from it.

    If the literal interpretation causes confusion and use of the word is unnecessary, why use it?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @slider23 said:
    I guess this one fits into your definition: my definition of Mint State is the condition of a coin at the moment it is struck. This example was struck by a punch and hammer and PCGS called it Mint State.

    How can a coin with a post-strike chop mark be in the condition it was in, when struck? Unless “struck” is in reference to the coin being struck with a chop mark.

    IMO, you are being silly because you could answer your own question. BECAUSE IT IS! Since it has no loss of design from wear it is still MS and someone chopped it. If they had not chopped it but put a test cut into the edge,
    IT WOULD STILL BE MS!

    :s Go to the principals office. Now this part is for the rest of the forum. Long before the major TPGS were a twinkle in anyone's eye coins were graded in a "so-called" technical way. We graded the coin and described it. Numbers existed in Sheldon but were not used. Back then MS-65 was "Choice Uncirculated" and MS-60 was "Uncirculated." Examples:

    Choice Unc, weak strike.
    Choice Unc, rim file.
    When numbers started to be used there was 60, 63, 65 - Unc, Choice Unc, Gem unc.

    Any coin can be graded. Think of today's MS-70 SE. Now put a hole in it. That makes it an MS-70, with a hole. Remember, this obsolete grading system tried to describe what a coin looked like. It is a great system to teach newbies because it is easy to understand. Anyway, the dealers wanted a "real" grading system to open up the business to investors and the so-called technical system went away UNTIL... the top two TPGS were dragged kicking and screaming into grading problem coins. The way problem coins are graded today is EXACTLY the way we did it fifty years ago!

    As for that Trade dollar, BLESS YOU PCGS! So that coin is graded "technically." It is MS and without the chops it would make MS-63. No need to problem grade these anymore because "Chops" have become popular. When I bought my S/C's, they were dumped in a pile of almost a hundred XF/AU's in the case as culls. I got to pick at @35. No one was rushing to buy BADLY DAMAGED coins back then. ;)

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @slider23 said:
    I guess this one fits into your definition: my definition of Mint State is the condition of a coin at the moment it is struck. This example was struck by a punch and hammer and PCGS called it Mint State.

    How can a coin with a post-strike chop mark be in the condition it was in, when struck? Unless “struck” is in reference to the coin being struck with a chop mark.

    IMO, you are being silly because you could answer your own question. BECAUSE IT IS! Since it has no loss of design from wear it is still MS and someone chopped it. If they had not chopped it but put a test cut into the edge,
    IT WOULD STILL BE MS!

    :s Go to the principals office. Now this part is for the rest of the forum. Long before the major TPGS were a twinkle in anyone's eye coins were graded in a "so-called" technical way. We graded the coin and described it. Numbers existed in Sheldon but were not used. Back then MS-65 was "Choice Uncirculated" and MS-60 was "Uncirculated." Examples:

    Choice Unc, weak strike.
    Choice Unc, rim file.
    When numbers started to be used there was 60, 63, 65 - Unc, Choice Unc, Gem unc.

    Any coin can be graded. Think of today's MS-70 SE. Now put a hole in it. That makes it an MS-70, with a hole. Remember, this obsolete grading system tried to describe what a coin looked like. It is a great system to teach newbies because it is easy to understand. Anyway, the dealers wanted a "real" grading system to open up the business to investors and the so-called technical system went away UNTIL... the top two TPGS were dragged kicking and screaming into grading problem coins. The way problem coins are graded today is EXACTLY the way we did it fifty years ago!

    As for that Trade dollar, BLESS YOU PCGS! So that coin is graded "technically." It is MS and without the chops it would make MS-63. No need to problem grade these anymore because "Chops" have become popular. When I bought my S/C's, they were dumped in a pile of almost a hundred XF/AU's in the case as culls. I got to pick at @35. No one was rushing to buy BADLY DAMAGED coins back then. ;)

    I’m not being silly, I’m just paying more attention to what you posted than you are.
    I have no issue with the Trade Dollar being graded “MS” something or other. But clearly, it’s not within your posted definition of “Mint State” - “my definition of Mint State is the condition of a coin at the moment it is struck.” Unless the coin bore a chop mark “at the moment it was struck”, it doesn’t meet your definition.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @slider23 said:
    I guess this one fits into your definition: my definition of Mint State is the condition of a coin at the moment it is struck. This example was struck by a punch and hammer and PCGS called it Mint State.

    How can a coin with a post-strike chop mark be in the condition it was in, when struck? Unless “struck” is in reference to the coin being struck with a chop mark.

    IMO, you are being silly because you could answer your own question. BECAUSE IT IS! Since it has no loss of design from wear it is still MS and someone chopped it. If they had not chopped it but put a test cut into the edge,
    IT WOULD STILL BE MS!

    :s Go to the principals office. Now this part is for the rest of the forum. Long before the major TPGS were a twinkle in anyone's eye coins were graded in a "so-called" technical way. We graded the coin and described it. Numbers existed in Sheldon but were not used. Back then MS-65 was "Choice Uncirculated" and MS-60 was "Uncirculated." Examples:

    Choice Unc, weak strike.
    Choice Unc, rim file.
    When numbers started to be used there was 60, 63, 65 - Unc, Choice Unc, Gem unc.

    Any coin can be graded. Think of today's MS-70 SE. Now put a hole in it. That makes it an MS-70, with a hole. Remember, this obsolete grading system tried to describe what a coin looked like. It is a great system to teach newbies because it is easy to understand. Anyway, the dealers wanted a "real" grading system to open up the business to investors and the so-called technical system went away UNTIL... the top two TPGS were dragged kicking and screaming into grading problem coins. The way problem coins are graded today is EXACTLY the way we did it fifty years ago!

    As for that Trade dollar, BLESS YOU PCGS! So that coin is graded "technically." It is MS and without the chops it would make MS-63. No need to problem grade these anymore because "Chops" have become popular. When I bought my S/C's, they were dumped in a pile of almost a hundred XF/AU's in the case as culls. I got to pick at @35. No one was rushing to buy BADLY DAMAGED coins back then. ;)

    I don't think that's as silly as you pretend. You're the one who defined MS as being as struck. Doesn't all PMD make it not "as struck"?

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MFeld said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @yosclimber said:
    My understanding is that MS means it was not circulated, i.e. handed from one person to another,
    with the associated friction wear on the high points.
    MS-60 would be such a coin, but with a lot of bag marks;
    maybe even rough patches on the rim and a scratch or two.

    This is not accurate. Mint state does not require lack of circulation. Similarly, "circulated" does not require actual circulation.

    You can get many Mint state, even high Mint state coins (66,67) in change at the local grocerery store.

    A mint state grade is typically assigned if there's no discernible wear. But lots of coins circulate and get graded before they exhibit wear.
    I think it's more accurate to state that some coins grade less than 60, even though they haven't actually circulated (not that "circulated" doesn't require actual circulation".

    What's the difference? If you can grade less than 60 without circulating then "circulated " doesn't require actual circulation. I know the literal interpretation causes confusion. However, I don't see any point in shying away from it.

    If the literal interpretation causes confusion and use of the word is unnecessary, why use it?

    Because the word has specific meaning in context. As your discussion with Skip demonstrates, you also can't say "Mint State" without an argument.

    The good news is that the whole confusion prices my (our) point that a narrow irrefutable definition of a grade simply isn't possible.

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    GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    You can get many Mint state, even high Mint state coins (66,67) in change at the local grocerery store.

    You CAN ?? If the high points on a coin slid in a velvet pouch are going to show wear, how are coins going in-and-out of pockets, cash registers, being handed off, etc.....NOT going to show wear on their high points ???

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2024 5:40AM

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    You can get many Mint state, even high Mint state coins (66,67) in change at the local grocerery store.

    You CAN ?? If the high points on a coin slid in a velvet pouch are going to show wear, how are coins going in-and-out of pockets, cash registers, being handed off, etc.....NOT going to show wear on their high points ???

    Yes, you can and lots of people do it.
    Some coins slide in velvet pouches a lot more (or less) than others, so results vary. At the same time, many coins in change have just come out of new rolls or have remained largely undisturbed in cash registers.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2024 6:06AM

    @GoldFinger1969 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    You can get many Mint state, even high Mint state coins (66,67) in change at the local grocerery store.

    You CAN ?? If the high points on a coin slid in a velvet pouch are going to show wear, how are coins going in-and-out of pockets, cash registers, being handed off, etc.....NOT going to show wear on their high points ???

    Yes, you can. One or two transfers will not generally leave any evidence of handing. Again, "circulated" or "uncirculated" have nothing to do with actual circulation, it's a state of preservation.

    Coins that have never left a collector's possession can show signs of wear from "velvet pouches" or Dansco slides, etc. Conversely, coins that have spent short periods of time in actual commerce might show no signs of wear.

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,128 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There was a collector here who a few months ago showed off his PCGS submission of modern coins he carried around in his pocket for a few weeks.
    They all received (low) MS grades as I recall.

    peacockcoins

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    1northcoin1northcoin Posts: 3,837 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @MFeld said:
    A newly minted coin that gets hit by another coin falling into the hopper is still "Mint State", as we use the term. But the coin is no longer in the condition it was in at the moment it was struck.
    So unless you change your definition of "Mint State" that you wrote in bold font, far, far fewer coins would qualify, even if we were to grade them as high as MS68 or MS69.

    Good, then if we can agree with this, hopefully other members will not disagree with us. THE ONLY THING THAT CAN CHANGE A MINT STATE COIN INTO ONE THAT IS NOT IS:

    Wait for it. I'll quote Sheldon:

    60 Mint State "Free from any trace of wear, ..."
    65
    67

    And that folks, is exactly why the original system used to identify coins along with a weight and photo lead to the system of grading used by us at the first TPGS and later named "technical grading" by the second TPGS that created their own version which was not the same.,

    So, if we all can agree what Mint State is then I'll see if I can post a description of an MS-60, the lowest MS that we can agree on.

    REMEMBER THAT THIS IS A THEORETICAL DISCUSSION to define an MS-60 coin and not an attempt to change the status quo. So let's try to stay on tract.

    Welcome back.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2024 10:16AM

    Generally they're dull lifeless; or nearly "damaged" coins that are unappealing.

    I bought this 1866 $20 that NGC graded MS60, later sold it and did not understand why it got that base grade for a MS coin:

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/1866-20-ms60-ngc-like-the-1865-the-1866-is-more-difficult-to-locate-in-mint-state-than-the-1872-1874-and-1875-most-su/a/267-8003.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515


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    Farmer1961Farmer1961 Posts: 167 ✭✭✭

    @gtstang said:
    Here's the only ms60 I have currently. The luster is excellent but does not show well in my photo.

    That is an excellent looking coin for a 60. Usually a 60 has numerous bagmarks

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    Project NumismaticsProject Numismatics Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    There was a collector here who a few months ago showed off his PCGS submission of modern coins he carried around in his pocket for a few weeks.
    They all received (low) MS grades as I recall.

    But would CACG call them MS? ;)

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    coastaljerseyguycoastaljerseyguy Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So based on some photos above, collectors can find some graded MS60's that are not hideous, lifeless, damaged coins. There will always be outliers, good & bad for every grade.

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2024 12:16PM

    UNC

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    If a coin is MS, he said (below) anything that happenes to it is some sort of PMD:

    "Since it has no loss of design from wear it is still MS and someone chopped it. If they had not chopped it but put a test cut into the edge, IT WOULD STILL BE MS!.

    It looks like PCGS agrees. The way I see it is all MS coins are the way they left the press and they are net graded down to the lowest level of MS-60 because of the things we see on them. Then they become colose to MS. However, the AU/MS border is now very fuzzy.

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    ARCOARCO Posts: 4,313 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Almost impossible to find an MS60 with some sort of decent eye appeal. This is my only MS60, ever. Looks dipped with that yellowish edge toning I see a lot on dipped coins, but still has nice luster and isn't banged up. My guess is that it was so borderline AU58, they just conceded and gave it a 60. It is ANACS, so who knows?

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    humanssuckhumanssuck Posts: 321 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coastaljerseyguy said:
    So based on some photos above, collectors can find some graded MS60's that are not hideous, lifeless, damaged coins. There will always be outliers, good & bad for every grade.

    To me this is the definition of a MS-60. Amazing luster. It's almost PL. And seemingly smashed into every other coin it could find....

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    TwobitcollectorTwobitcollector Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My favorite MS60

    Positive BST Transactions with:
    INYNWHWeTrust-TexasNationals,ajaan,blu62vette
    coinJP, Outhaul ,illini420,MICHAELDIXON, Fade to Black,epcjimi1,19Lyds,SNMAN,JerseyJoe, bigjpst, DMWJR , lordmarcovan, Weiss,Mfriday4962,UtahCoin,Downtown1974,pitboss,RichieURich,Bullsitter,JDsCoins,toyz4geo,jshaulis, mustanggt, SNMAN
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    breakdownbreakdown Posts: 1,953 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A lot of coins shown, such as Crypto's Trade $, appear a whole lot nicer than MS60. Great examples of the hazards of grading by photo.

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

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