I think there are more than 10 known of the High Leaves proof. I scoured auctions and Coinfacts and there are certainly more than what we have come up with.
Rnkmeyer has 2 and knows of one other
Redraider has 2 (one not designated properly)
Renomedphys has 1
Speaking of Small letter, High Leaves.....I have this one as well which is with our hosts being graded.
It is definitely an MS strike, but used the exact dies that the PR-1 was struck with. I have not seen another one in MS using these dies. Took years to find one!
@redraider - renomedphys’ coin was the other one I mentioned being aware of. The approximate 10 count was Rick’s, but I have to acknowledge there might be more. I guess my main point was PCGS OK’d these for inclusion in sets. Nothing on them as it appears the request had never been made before. I’ll enjoy the 1/0 while it lasts!
Btw, love your “PR-1” above; that one’s special!
P.S. on the 1858 SL PR High Leaves: with @redraider’s 2, @ renomedphys’ 1 & my 2, we have 5 known examples. Until more are discovered/known, I think Rick’s “less than 10 known” is accurate (so far).
There are 6 coins pictured on Coinfacts of the SL HL reverse including 2 in an astounding PF66 grade!
The pictures there include the PR63 and PR65 shown in this thread, but neither of the PR64+ coins, nor my one misattributed MS65+ example. This puts it at 9 right there.
I went back and looked at just Heritage Auctions and saw a number more. Some might be resubmissions and some coins have sold more than once. There is a beautiful CAM example too!
I really do think there are at least 15, probably closer to 20 realistically out there that are known right now.
Even more interestingly, when I was looking at past auctions, it looks like PCGS used to designate this. The cert no longer is valid if you look for it, but the label is quite clear as to what the variety was.
@redraider: nice research & analysis! It appears PCGS (unknown reasons) used to place all these under the 2043 ID #. As you know, they didn’t distinguish between LL & SL years ago either. Early grading days have become so much better over time from an accuracy standpoint. With the 63, they created a slot with the unique # they assigned to it. I think that’s why it shows as a 1/0. In their process of labeling the coin, it appears they overlooked past designations, perhaps due to the use of #2043. But 15? From what you found, it seems reasonable to me. Great work!
Thanks @rnkmeyer! I want this to be rarer than it is unfortunately. When I bought my PR64+, I thought it was the 6th known.....then I did my research. A few weeks after I was able to acquire my PF64+, the NGC MS65+ showed up in the same auction as Renomedphys PR65. It was described as "semi proof like".
Not being a collector of FE Cents, what is the difference between an 1857 FECent and an 1857 FS-401a obverse of 1856? I have tried to compare date size(1856 appears smaller) font, positioning and can't seem to find the difference.
I know that supposedly the center of the "O" is more squarelike and letters are more blocklike, but I just don't really see it. Are the FS-401a 1857's only PL?
Thanks,
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@jesbroken said:
Not being a collector of FE Cents, what is the difference between an 1857 FECent and an 1857 FS-401a obverse of 1856? I know that supposedly the center of the "O" is more squarelike
The easiest way is to compare the middle serif of the F in OF. The M in AMERICA is more rounded than pointed.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
@jesbroken said:
Not being a collector of FE Cents, what is the difference between an 1857 FECent and an 1857 FS-401a obverse of 1856? I have tried to compare date size(1856 appears smaller) font, positioning and can't seem to find the difference.
I know that supposedly the center of the "O" is more squarelike and letters are more blocklike, but I just don't really see it. Are the FS-401a 1857's only PL?
Thanks,
Jim
There are some subtle differences....not a huge difference though.
The main point of differentiation is the lettering, and as you pointed out the lettering in OF is the easiest identifier. There is a fantastic RPD on the S-1 examples and not all are proof like.
Snow-1, copper. R8 (just 2 known) This die pair only accounts for about a dozen CuNi examples, and this. What stands out is the tilted “ONE CENT” on the reverse relative to the wreath, and the obvious use of obverse 1, the same die used to strike the Snow-3’s, which were distributed to congress members and dignitaries in 1856. No-one knows why these were struck alongside the other copper-nickel S-1’s, but one can imagine. I have seen another example certified simply as J-181, thin planchet and in an RB holder, but this is the only one certified as a Snow-1 with its own coin number.
@renomedphys said:
Snow-1, copper. R8 (just 2 known) This die pair only accounts for about a dozen CuNi examples, and this. What stands out is the tilted “ONE CENT” on the reverse relative to the wreath, and the obvious use of obverse 1, the same die used to strike the Snow-3’s, which were distributed to congress members and dignitaries in 1856. No-one knows why these were struck alongside the other copper-nickel S-1’s, but one can imagine. I have seen another example certified simply as J-181, thin planchet and in an RB holder, but this is the only one certified as a Snow-1 with its own coin number.
Whoa! there are some absolutely spectacular coins being posted here!
I don't specialize in Flyers, more of a type coin for me, but I am really impressed at some of the coins above! They are truly beautiful and unique coins.
Earlier I posted 3 pop 1/0 1856 PR coins from my FE Proof Complete Variety set. There are 3 others not 1/0 that I’ve decided to post here. Somewhat in reverse, I’m starting with the elusive PR-4. It’s the last one of the group of 6 I was able to acquire. Nicknamed “pretty bird”.
Last but certainly not least is the rare, coveted PR-1. I NEVER thought I would have a chance to own one of these & I owe a big THANKS to the sharp eye of Matt Chapman (@renomedphys) for spotting it sitting unattributed in a dealer’s inventory. Mere technicals “limit” it to a PR62. The marks blend in with the tone, indicated they were made long ago. Followers of these PR’s know the PR-1 is “snakebit” - very few are known & 2 of them were lost out of 12 or so total. This one’s a 2/2 pop.
Btw, the eagle is properly shown as flying upward.
Surprisingly, I never posted this previously. But, it’s an important coin to any FE collector & not without a little controversy. As there was disparity between EDS, mid & late die states (& cost to buyers), PCGS set standards a few years ago as to what qualified as a “true” Strong 1858/7. There are examples out there with the “Strong” label before these standards were set that actually wouldn’t qualify today. These coins should have a considerably lower price point and often do.
To my knowledge, the subject coin is a relatively recent discovery (last 18 months). Rick Snow rates it #3 in his Strong MS65 example list. The distinguishing attributes are the fully formed diamond shaped chip above the first 8 & the also fully formed flag to the right of the top of the second 8. Like all, whether EDS, mid or late due states, the tail feathers are not fully struck. This results in the right hand side lower leaf on the reverse lacking detail. Fortunately, this one’s tail feathers are about as good as one could hope for.
It’s fortunate for collectors PCGS decided to set these standards; this is a tough date & one must tread carefully.
I like to throw another of mine into the mix.
Judd-184, Pollock- 220, Snow PT1 PR62 - Low R7
Per Heritage , These dies correspond to Rick Snow's Die Pair 2 without a line below the amulets on the left side of the shield
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
Incredibly tough variety; this is the second finest known after a MS65. Exceptional eye appeal with nice obv/rev contrast. The digits in the date look like they were scooped out from the obv bottom. Very cool!
Almost a joke to show this coin -1858 LL - after the beauties posted above. I got this coin in an English auction and was somewhat put off by its appearance. It looks to have been softly struck in parts or perhaps through grease. The wreath is very softly struck but the central eagle design rather sharp and areas of lustre not so evident in these photos; I took some angled shots. Still the coin has a bit of character if technically deficient.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@7Jaguars said:
Almost a joke to show this coin -1858 LL - after the beauties posted above. I got this coin in an English auction and was somewhat put off by its appearance. It looks to have been softly struck in parts or perhaps through grease. The wreath is very softly struck but the central eagle design rather sharp and areas of lustre not so evident in these photos; I took some angled shots. Still the coin has a bit of character if technically deficient.
You are spot on about the strike. You should return that coin to the Mint for a refund. I cannot comprehend how the perimeter is so softly struck and the eagle is so well struck. Perfect for a collector of anomaly coins.
1858 SL PCGS MS66
I believe this is actually a PR - the PR2 die pair. It seems to have all the diagnostics, plus the heavy die striations would qualify it as an EDS. Any opinions are most welcome.
While overshadowed by its more famous “cousin” the 1858/7 Strong/S-1, there are actually only 17 of these graded in the PCGS pop. This example is one of the top 2 & also the plate coin in Rick Snow’s definitive guide. It has exceptional eye appeal, along with sharp diagnostics. There are no early, mid or late die states for this type - all are similarly struck. Imo, this date/type is seriously underrated, even by many FE collectors.
Comments
@redraider - yes I bought it as a proof. Your SL High Leaves is a STUNNER!
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LOL! Another SL High Leaves Proof in PC65 CAC/PS
And I thought these were rare.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
I think there are more than 10 known of the High Leaves proof. I scoured auctions and Coinfacts and there are certainly more than what we have come up with.
Rnkmeyer has 2 and knows of one other
Redraider has 2 (one not designated properly)
Renomedphys has 1
That is 6 known out between the last few posts!
Speaking of Small letter, High Leaves.....I have this one as well which is with our hosts being graded.
It is definitely an MS strike, but used the exact dies that the PR-1 was struck with. I have not seen another one in MS using these dies. Took years to find one!
@redraider - renomedphys’ coin was the other one I mentioned being aware of. The approximate 10 count was Rick’s, but I have to acknowledge there might be more. I guess my main point was PCGS OK’d these for inclusion in sets. Nothing on them as it appears the request had never been made before. I’ll enjoy the 1/0 while it lasts!
Btw, love your “PR-1” above; that one’s special!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
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Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
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Great coins in here. I still need one.
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I was going to post my 1857 1C DDO, but I sold it last year.
So, here's a D. Carr version.
Images by @robec
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1858 LL MS66 Low Leaves. Closed E variety. Pop 2/0. The other is an Open E.
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1857 S-15 MS66. Straight cross from NGC to PCGS. Tough variety & a 2/0. This one’s special. Beautiful toning!
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P.S. on the 1858 SL PR High Leaves: with @redraider’s 2, @ renomedphys’ 1 & my 2, we have 5 known examples. Until more are discovered/known, I think Rick’s “less than 10 known” is accurate (so far).
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Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
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There are 6 coins pictured on Coinfacts of the SL HL reverse including 2 in an astounding PF66 grade!
The pictures there include the PR63 and PR65 shown in this thread, but neither of the PR64+ coins, nor my one misattributed MS65+ example. This puts it at 9 right there.
I went back and looked at just Heritage Auctions and saw a number more. Some might be resubmissions and some coins have sold more than once. There is a beautiful CAM example too!
I really do think there are at least 15, probably closer to 20 realistically out there that are known right now.
Even more interestingly, when I was looking at past auctions, it looks like PCGS used to designate this. The cert no longer is valid if you look for it, but the label is quite clear as to what the variety was.
@redraider: nice research & analysis! It appears PCGS (unknown reasons) used to place all these under the 2043 ID #. As you know, they didn’t distinguish between LL & SL years ago either. Early grading days have become so much better over time from an accuracy standpoint. With the 63, they created a slot with the unique # they assigned to it. I think that’s why it shows as a 1/0. In their process of labeling the coin, it appears they overlooked past designations, perhaps due to the use of #2043. But 15? From what you found, it seems reasonable to me. Great work!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Thanks @rnkmeyer! I want this to be rarer than it is unfortunately. When I bought my PR64+, I thought it was the 6th known.....then I did my research. A few weeks after I was able to acquire my PF64+, the NGC MS65+ showed up in the same auction as Renomedphys PR65. It was described as "semi proof like".
Do you have pics of your PR64+?
@redraider: I do; I bought it out of Don Kelley’s transit set.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Not being a collector of FE Cents, what is the difference between an 1857 FECent and an 1857 FS-401a obverse of 1856? I have tried to compare date size(1856 appears smaller) font, positioning and can't seem to find the difference.
I know that supposedly the center of the "O" is more squarelike and letters are more blocklike, but I just don't really see it. Are the FS-401a 1857's only PL?
Thanks,
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Nice!! I finished my 1858 12 piece pattern set with a few of the coins out of Don Kelley's transit set.
The easiest way is to compare the middle serif of the F in OF. The M in AMERICA is more rounded than pointed.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
There are some subtle differences....not a huge difference though.
The main point of differentiation is the lettering, and as you pointed out the lettering in OF is the easiest identifier. There is a fantastic RPD on the S-1 examples and not all are proof like.
This is my MS63 example.
I have always liked Flying Eagle Cents. Too bad that they were only made for circulation for two years.
My one and only from my type set
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Toned Buffalo Date SetDigital Album
Snow-1, copper. R8 (just 2 known) This die pair only accounts for about a dozen CuNi examples, and this. What stands out is the tilted “ONE CENT” on the reverse relative to the wreath, and the obvious use of obverse 1, the same die used to strike the Snow-3’s, which were distributed to congress members and dignitaries in 1856. No-one knows why these were struck alongside the other copper-nickel S-1’s, but one can imagine. I have seen another example certified simply as J-181, thin planchet and in an RB holder, but this is the only one certified as a Snow-1 with its own coin number.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Whoa! there are some absolutely spectacular coins being posted here!
This is the only flyer I have with the planchet metrics. Ex: Wright Flyer Collection. Stunning eye appeal & unique to boot!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
I don't specialize in Flyers, more of a type coin for me, but I am really impressed at some of the coins above! They are truly beautiful and unique coins.
Earlier I posted 3 pop 1/0 1856 PR coins from my FE Proof Complete Variety set. There are 3 others not 1/0 that I’ve decided to post here. Somewhat in reverse, I’m starting with the elusive PR-4. It’s the last one of the group of 6 I was able to acquire. Nicknamed “pretty bird”.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
This PR-3 is simply one of the best I’ve ever seen. It’s nice for the grade, too, but I’m not qualified to assert that it’s undergraded.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Last but certainly not least is the rare, coveted PR-1. I NEVER thought I would have a chance to own one of these & I owe a big THANKS to the sharp eye of Matt Chapman (@renomedphys) for spotting it sitting unattributed in a dealer’s inventory. Mere technicals “limit” it to a PR62. The marks blend in with the tone, indicated they were made long ago. Followers of these PR’s know the PR-1 is “snakebit” - very few are known & 2 of them were lost out of 12 or so total. This one’s a 2/2 pop.
Btw, the eagle is properly shown as flying upward.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Flying Eagle PR Complete Variety Set
1856 PR S-1
1856 PR S-2
1856 PR S-3
1856 PR S-4
1856 PR S-5
1856 PR S-9
1857 PR
1858 SL PR
1858 LL PR
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PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Where can I get one of these?
Ken, one of the greatest post and FE collections ever! Ken, you will go down as one of the best ever in this series!
These were available last year or two and you may find one on the secondary market. There are a couple on ebay right now.
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1858/7 FE Strong PCGS MS65
Surprisingly, I never posted this previously. But, it’s an important coin to any FE collector & not without a little controversy. As there was disparity between EDS, mid & late die states (& cost to buyers), PCGS set standards a few years ago as to what qualified as a “true” Strong 1858/7. There are examples out there with the “Strong” label before these standards were set that actually wouldn’t qualify today. These coins should have a considerably lower price point and often do.
To my knowledge, the subject coin is a relatively recent discovery (last 18 months). Rick Snow rates it #3 in his Strong MS65 example list. The distinguishing attributes are the fully formed diamond shaped chip above the first 8 & the also fully formed flag to the right of the top of the second 8. Like all, whether EDS, mid or late due states, the tail feathers are not fully struck. This results in the right hand side lower leaf on the reverse lacking detail. Fortunately, this one’s tail feathers are about as good as one could hope for.
It’s fortunate for collectors PCGS decided to set these standards; this is a tough date & one must tread carefully.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Tied for 6th finest graded at PCGS........... Nice.
I like to throw another of mine into the mix.
Judd-184, Pollock- 220, Snow PT1 PR62 - Low R7
Per Heritage , These dies correspond to Rick Snow's Die Pair 2 without a line below the amulets on the left side of the shield
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
1857 S-11 PCGS MS64+
Incredibly tough variety; this is the second finest known after a MS65. Exceptional eye appeal with nice obv/rev contrast. The digits in the date look like they were scooped out from the obv bottom. Very cool!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Love the S-11
Almost a joke to show this coin -1858 LL - after the beauties posted above. I got this coin in an English auction and was somewhat put off by its appearance. It looks to have been softly struck in parts or perhaps through grease. The wreath is very softly struck but the central eagle design rather sharp and areas of lustre not so evident in these photos; I took some angled shots. Still the coin has a bit of character if technically deficient.
Well, just Love coins, period.
You are spot on about the strike. You should return that coin to the Mint for a refund. I cannot comprehend how the perimeter is so softly struck and the eagle is so well struck. Perfect for a collector of anomaly coins.
Has to be grease
Lots of nice FEC's posted here!
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
What a find!
The good old days…..
When PCGS didn’t grade all 1856 FE’s as PR. CAC bean added after photo taken AND CACG is grading MS 1856’s. Good!
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PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
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Thought I could get a plus on this MS65 at the show, but no dice.
In my 7070
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1858 SL PCGS MS66
I believe this is actually a PR - the PR2 die pair. It seems to have all the diagnostics, plus the heavy die striations would qualify it as an EDS. Any opinions are most welcome.
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PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
@DMWJR: awesome 1856 Doug!
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PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
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My wife received an 1857 Flying Eagle Cent in change at the local J.C. Penney's store back in 1996.
That sure looks like a proof to me.
1858 S-7 Overdate PCGS MS65
While overshadowed by its more famous “cousin” the 1858/7 Strong/S-1, there are actually only 17 of these graded in the PCGS pop. This example is one of the top 2 & also the plate coin in Rick Snow’s definitive guide. It has exceptional eye appeal, along with sharp diagnostics. There are no early, mid or late die states for this type - all are similarly struck. Imo, this date/type is seriously underrated, even by many FE collectors.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian