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Peace Dollar people: If I am looking for a 1921 at FUN, what should I watch for?
TheLiberator
Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭
Hi all! I have been thinking about getting this for my type set. I know it is popular first year of issue type, but that's about as far as my knowledge on it goes. Are these coins "all over the place" as far as quality for the grade, or are they pretty solid without a lot of messing around with? What else should I know? (Obviously I will look for strike quality, recent auction prices yada yada yada, but I do not own a peace dollar yet so I thought I'd ask some people who know more than me! 
Also: Any recommended Peace dealers for this particular coin? Are there Peace specialists I should be looking for on the floor at FUN?
Thanks in advance!
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I'm not sure if theres any peace dollar specialists, but they are popular type coins and there are typically a good amount scattered across the bourse that you would be able to view. Speaking for myself, i would try to prioritize finding one with a good strike and alot of central hair detail. Many of them are very weak in the center, and a gem thats flat in the center just doesnt really appeal to me personally.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
1921 peace dollars seem hugely variable to me, even in graded holders, but I am not very knowledgeable on the series and I don’t own one.
1. Look at strike, particularly obverse hair detail. These were struck in higher relief but the quality varies, even among the different dies used. The vam guys could tell you more.
2. Surface quality. Many have been wiped or look funky. My favorites in unc have a “dusty” lustrous look to the surfaces.
3. Rims. Carefully check for small dings etc which can make it into holders.
4. Grade. There are some nice looking 63s and 64s out there but also a lot of junk. Cac sticker can help weed some out.
5. Toning. Peace dollars generally don’t come with nice toning, and most I’ve seen on 21s is brownish. I’d avoid any with brown toning or post dip retoning.
Sorry I only have a 1922 MS63 on ebay buy it now
They are big, cool coins. I don't collect Peace dollars, but I do like these coins a lot. The strike is very problematic. Some better struck than others. Central hair details, and on the reverse, the eagle details are almost always flat, so if you can find one with a better strike, and original strong luster, I'd say that would be a very good candidate. There seem to be two flavors of coins out there, dipped and original. The original one's typically tone over with russet coloration. Luster is a key consideration....stay away from over -dipped, lack luster coins.
You might find one or two that are struck from the proof dies, as they apparently used them for circulation strikes. (VAM 1h) variety I think is the designation?
Here is the VAM 1h, showing a better than normal strike:
Good luck, and show us what you got afterwards!
Welcome back.
What coins do you know of that aren’t “all over the place”? 😉
1921 Peace dollars aren’t at all rare - they’re typically readily available through grades of MS64, if not MS65. But pleasing, accurately graded, reasonably priced examples are a different story. I strongly advise patience in your pursuit of one. Enjoy the hunt!
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Weiss has one that I always use as a reference for an example I’d like to own.
I would keep an eye out for one that is well struck, has decent luster and limited abrasions on its surface. The ‘21, since it’s high relief, tends to have weakness in the Liberty’s hair area. Keep an eye out for that.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
@Paradisefound has a wonderfully struck example also.
You all are amazing! Thanks so much!!! I am going to look at as many as I can and take my time. If I am not happy, I simply won't buy that day!
If you haven’t already done so, I recommend that you start looking at lots of images of NGC and PCGS examples of different grades. Getting a broad perspective can be quite helpful.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I am a fan of the re-engraved Vam-3
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Go to the Heritage FUN Auction lot viewing since you are attending the show. Great free education on how the services look at the issue.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
My favorite 20 century coin - get it graded (not raw) and look for strike and eye appeal
Few more pics of some 63 and 64 graded 21s.
Always look for the VAM 1F or 1G which was made with a proof obverse. There is a hook over the “V” in TRVST…
Here is a little history on the High Relief 1921 Peace Dollar, so you will know what happened during the minting process. The coins were designed to be struck in high relief that required extra pressure on the coin press to get metal flow to the high points. The extra pressure caused the dies to wear out prematurely. The mint by law had a completion date for the run of the 1921 Peace Dollar. There was not enough time to make more dies for the run, so a decision was made to turn down the coin press pressure to compete the run by the deadline with the existing dies. The lower coin pressure pressure resulted in weakness in the high points of Liberty's hair and the eagle's wing on the reverse. You will see many 1921 Peace Dollars that are flat on Liberty's hair. The challenge on a 1921 Peace Dollar is to find one with full hair details. When you find it, you will most likely pay a premium, but you will have a special coin. Enjoy your trip to FUN.
If you can find one that looks like this one that I picked up then you'll be doing ok. I got this one raw and its still raw.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
The 1921 Peace issue makes a great type coin. Demand soared for them when the 2021 issues came out, but it’s softened a bit more recently. These are not rare at all and there will be many available on the bourse.
As others said, try to cherry-pick for good quality, especially a strong strike. I’ve owned two, an MS62 CAC (top one) and an MS63 (not CAC, bottom one). The higher graded one is not as original, but I wanted a white coin to match my set.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I am so old that I remember taking 1921 Peace Dollars back to the bank. I would get groups of Silver Dollars from the bank to look for dates and mints that I needed. There were always 1921 Peace Dollars in each group. I took them and other dates that I did not need back to the bank.
Look at every 1921 Peace dollar you can find, taking notes of which ones you like. The one you like best will be lustrous, well struck, and not exorbitantly priced. Buy that one.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
As noted by others, you won’t have trouble finding them on the bourse. You asked for dealers. Two that regularly carry “nice” Peace Dollars are Shaun at Mike’s Coin Chest (Table 304), and Larry Shapiro Rare Coins (I’m not sure if he’ll be there). Neither are “cheap”, but both will negotiate.
I bought mine on Heritage in July 2017. I bought it as a 65 with a CAC for $2,350. When I got it in hand, it was nicer than the photos. I liked it so much, I sent it back to PCGS for Reconsideration. Sure enough, they added on a plus. Here’s Heritage’s description:
The devices are as crisply defined as one may hope to find. This lovely example shows pale champagne accents, satiny luster, and myriad die polish lines in the fields.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Take your time. They’re readily available and you can be very picky. There are ~150 listed on Collectors Corner.
https://www.collectorscorner.com/Category/Category.aspx?catId=26&pId=2
You have not given us enough information about yourself or your finances . If you have the money, just tell one of the very successful dealers at FUN or even someone at Heritage or Great Collections that you are going to buy one for sure that day and to get you two or three examples to look at together (MS-65 or highrer with green CAC sticker) so you can choose one. This will be very expensive, and two dealers will be extremely happy with their profit for the time spent.
If you are like most of us, look at every high grade coin you can find in a slab. Don't be afraid to ask questions. After a while, you should have learned what unbroken,blazing white luster void of detracting marks looks like on one of these coins. Avoid any dull or toned coins no matter what they are graded. Learn to detect hairlines. That will be the main reason coins in slabs will look undergraded to yu. Then buy the highest graded, least expensive one you can afford. Remember all MS-65's are not the same and all dealers are different. If you find a good dealer who knows what they are doing and you become a regular customer it will save you money. They will give you better prices and they will even buy coins you want from another at a discount when they can get it. The coins I like and cannot afford are rarely discounted. The important thing to remember as a buyer is whatever you are spending you know the coin is worth it. However, the best coins in my collection have been the ones I had rarely seen as nice that I kicked myself all the way home for buying! They always "sold themselves" for a profit.
PS When I bought my first 1921, it took several shows and over a year, I had looked at every coin graded 65 and over by one of the TPGS, especially with CAC stickers. Then, I bought the most similar raw, 100% original coin to them I found. The strike on the front was not quite as full but it was very good. When I learned about Peace dollar VAMS, I discovered my long gone coin that everyone tried to buy was struck with Proof dies. The knowledge you can gain about what you are buying give you a step up from the rest of the pck.
Don't buy anything unless the seller will let you leave a deposit and your drivers license with him so you can take the coin over to the ANA graders for their opinion before you buy it.
I’m probably echoing things already said, but find one with a solid strike; super strong may be hard to find, but the really mushy coins don’t look great. Also wait for one with nice original surfaces. They look so much better. I have two, a 64 and a 35. Very different coins, but I love both.
I like your advice, but a couple of points:
1. What do you mean by “ ANA” graders at the show? Do you mean most dealers who are members of ANA? Do you mean PCGS and or NGC graders, who will be at the show? However, they don’t look at coins at the show and give opinions. They’re there to accept submitted coins for grading, so this suggestion will not work.
2. In your top reply, you suggest buying coins at the show from Heritage or GC. However, they don’t have coins to sell at the show, they only have coins that are consigned for upcoming auctions.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Heritage often has its own inventory coins available for purchase at major shows.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
ANACS graders give free opinions at shows like FUN where they actually have a grader rather that a person just taking submissions.
I believe any major, competent numismatist such as Julian Leidman, Laura Spurber (sp), Ian at GC whold be happy to round up a few coins that can be viewed together for a short time (for a commission) from other dealers they know that are already slabbed for a wealthy client to pick from.
I stand corrected, and for dinner tonight, will be eating crow, lol.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I disagree that you’ll have a large selection to choose from at the show - I bet there will be maybe 3 tops that are worth a damn
I’m not sure of your requirements for “worth a damn” but I disagree that there “will be maybe be 3 tops”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I see 2-3 1921 Peace dollars (give/take) at almost every show I work for ANACS. I would say that at least 85% of those coins have been cleaned or messed with in some way, to the point where when a really nice one comes through it's a memorable event. I suggest if you can't tell the difference between original and cleaned or whizzed coins, buy a certified one.
Be selective and patient. They can be had in raw and certified but in raw there may be a good reason it's raw and not certified. I nabbed this one raw a few years ago at an auction, it's still raw and may stay that way. It's definitely not gem and it may have been cleaned at some point in it's life but the stronger than usual strike was the drawl for me; nice hairline and feather details. It has a slight lamination going on at her neck too. Couldn't go wrong at $200 for some better than usual details.
Good luck!
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
A. That is an extremely unlikely scenario. Unless one is a big time player and has a close, personal relationship,, maybe this would happen if looking at 66+ or 67 21 HRs, of which anyone will have a very difficult time finding at any time, much less at one show.
B. One of those names is not like the rest https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13635026
Edit for spelling
I guess it’s possible that it’s just the lighting, but that coin looks like it’s been polished.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld
Lighting. I'm definitely not the best photographer.
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
Thank you for the "B" portion of your comment, as I was scrolling down I was hoping someone had made that correction already. I agree with "A" as well.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
I agree, the surfaces are not ideal. The strike is superb though.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
I have owned many, but the first half-dozen or so really weren't that great. If I was spending much at all, I'd absolutely get one slabbed by NGC or PCGS (or CACG).
Unless you basically have an unlimited budget, and you're chasing an MS67 coin, you really can't have it all. Strike, color, luster, and surface preservation all have potential problems.
For me, some thing truly eye appealing is pretty darn hard to find, but they do exist, at a few different grade levels. Strike is important. None are great. Most are abysmal. A few are above average. Take your time. It took me the better part of a decade to find one that suits me. I'm not letting it go either. It's technically excellent, and it just visually captivating. This is one of a handful of coins I decided to keep when I sold everything else:
This one came to me a while back, and was recently sold. It has loads of personality, technically nice enough, and not tremendously expensive:
Here's a circulated one that caught my eye:
Bottom line, find something that isn't boring!
Here’s a couple of mine for comparison. The MS64 has a better strike vs. the MS63. You can see more detail in Liberty’s hair towards the center of the obverse. I highly recommend buying the Red Books Peace Dollar Guide. I put a pic at the end for reference. It has some great images that illustrate the varying strike quality for 21 Peace dollars.
A great book, and an absolute necessity for anyone putting together a DATE set (like me), or a full date and mint mark set.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I am with @winesteven on this one. My first stop would be at Mike's Coin Chest to talk with Shaun about the 3 1921's he has in stock. Beautiful examples to consider. He carries the best of the best.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 35 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Mike’s Coin Chest definitely has nice coins but their pricing is very high. The two 64 Peace Dollars on their site are listed at $3350. The highest recent auction price I see for that coin is $1800. Nice coins should absolutely sell for more money but there’s premium pricing and there’s 2x market pricing…
Perhaps your point is correct. But the way you presented your point makes it sound like coins are commodities, and that every 1921 Peace MS64 graded by PCGS with a CAC sticker should be valued identically.
I do see that on the PCGS Auction prices website the most recent sale did indeed sell for $1,800 (from Stacks). Here's the True View of that coin:
Here's one of the 1921 coins that Shaun is offering for $3,350. I admit eye appeal is super subjective, and as such, I believe many collectors might indeed prefer the look of the Stack's $1,800 coin. I also know I clearly prefer the appearance of Shaun's coin (NO True View is available, only the slab shots), and I believe MANY other collectors would prefer that coin as well. Here's Shaun's description of that coin:
This 1921 PCGS MS64 CAC Peace Dollar has pristine surfaces that glow with luster. Great example for the date and grade.
Admittedly, while many would prefer Shaun's coin, I understand that the asking price of $3,350 is high, but he will negotiate on price. Maybe not enough for many buyers, but my point is one should not assume that every coin in a grade is valued the same, and many times a coin (even with a CAC sticker, graded by PCGS) selling at a low price may indeed NOT be a bargain!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Here I go again, agreeing with @winesteven
If I were in the market for a Peace Dollar (I used to collect them but have moved to gold and CBH's) I would make sure to talk to Shaun. He has built some of the best Morgan and Peace dollar collections of all time.
I would not be a buyer of the Stacks coin and would expect to pay (and willing to pay) more than that for the MCC coin. The OP said they wanted to find out about Peace Dollar specialists. Well, MCC is one of those. Hopefully the OP can stop by his table. He has 3 of them and another person stated there wouldn't even be 3 at the entire show.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 35 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
I’d give Larry Shapiro and Don Rinkor a look.
I spoke with Larry after i made my reply above. He won't be at the show, but people can look at his website for coins. Regardless, like Shaun at Mike's Coin Chest (Table # 304), Larry Shapiro and Rinkor Coins (Table #811-815) price their nice material for the grade high.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I'm sorry Steve, you know I have no issue paying up for a nice coin but I can't cosign with you here. One of the more recent auction comps for a Pcac 64 is actually $1500 on HA and it's a pretty nice looking coin. A very nice 64cac ogh sold on GC for 1900 as well.
A 1921 peace in 64 actually is somewhat of a commodity, PCGS has 5000 of them graded and CAC has 700 in the pop report. CPG is 2,060 and the price jump to 65cac is close to the ask price of the 64 (CPG 3880). Nothing against Shaun and MCC, but regardless of what might be negotiated if one were to turn around and try to sell that coin, they'd be lucky to get an offer for more than $1600. If one of my friends asked me for advice, I would advise them to move along and wait to find one priced closer to current market levels. As @david3142 stated, there's premium pricing and then there 2x market and the latter can be avoided with commonly found issues.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
Understood. As noted, the $3,350 ASKING price is high, but my point was eye appeal is subjective, and with that in mind, I fully understand why the Heritage coin you show sold for only $1,500. Was that a bargain? To some collectors maybe. To most, I don't think so. Admittedly, based only on the photos, the GC coin is nicer than the $1,500 Heritage coin (to me).
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Bryce, I’m glad you kept your MS66 example. When I saw this thread, it was the first coin I thought of.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Common low areas to look for strike weakness