I agree with the comments so far, take your time and look at lots of coins. I like to see a well struck neck truncation. Here’s the MS64 in my set, and another I picked up raw in 2019. The 64 is not as well struck, but has nice luster and subtle toning. The scratches are on the holder.
The best bang for your buck is in the MS64-65 range, provided you are on a budget and this is the only high relief Peace dollar you desire for a type set. As most forumites have responded above, strike is very important for this issue and the hair on Miss Liberty is a prime focal point.
Here's my MS64 that I'm very happy to have:
Always looking for attractive rim toned Morgan and Peace dollars in PCGS or (older) ANA/ANACS holders!
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
@Che_Grapes said:
Common low areas to look for strike weakness
A full MS coin with "flat strike luster" where the planchet metal did not touch the die. I hope @Rexford gets to see this coin so he will ee that the MS-63 Russian rouble is AU and not weakley struck.
Here's one of the 1921 coins that Shaun is offering for $3,350. I admit eye appeal is super subjective, and as such, I believe many collectors might indeed prefer the look of the Stack's $1,800 coin. I also know I clearly prefer the appearance of Shaun's coin (NO True View is available, only the slab shots), and I believe MANY other collectors would prefer that coin as well. Here's Shaun's description of that coin:
This 1921 PCGS MS64 CAC Peace Dollar has pristine surfaces that glow with luster. Great example for the date and grade.
Admittedly, while many would prefer Shaun's coin, I understand that the asking price of $3,350 is high, but he will negotiate on price. Maybe not enough for many buyers, but my point is one should not assume that every coin in a grade is valued the same, and many times a coin (even with a CAC sticker, graded by PCGS) selling at a low price may indeed NOT be a bargain!
Steve
Interestingly, the picture posted does not have a CAC on it; but, in checking the CAC website, it indeed owns a CAC. In terms of CAC price guide there are 714 MS64 @ $2,060 & 295 MS65 @ $3,880. In between, CACG has only graded two coins as MS64+. Would this coin merit a MS64+ from CACG?
Given that CAC coins are often priced higher than the CAC price guide, would $3,350 actually be a within reason price for this coin? But only if it ends up being graded MS64+ by CACG!
There is no question; however, as Deplorable Dan said, " ...if one were to turn around and try to sell that coin, they'd be lucky to get an offer for more than $1600. "
@Che_Grapes said:
Common low areas to look for strike weakness
A full MS coin with "flat strike luster" where the planchet metal did not touch the die. I hope @Rexford gets to see this coin so he will ee that the MS-63 Russian rouble is AU and not weakley struck.
It doesn’t always manifest the same way or need to be very extreme. That being said, there does look to be some slight dullness there on the flattest areas, and it has probably been masked by the coin having been dipped as well as the angle of the photo. Here are some other examples where dullness in the weakly struck areas is more present and visible. These are all graded PCGS MS66. I’m not super interested in debating this though - I’ve provided my opinion and you are welcome to take it or leave it.
Good luck in your hunt. I really
enjoy the 1921 Peace Dollar. It is especially an important coin of History to commemorate world Peace with the not so distant ending of WWI.
Lustrous coins are readily available. Don't settle for an ugly one as those are also plentiful.
Vam 1H: Mint state coin struck from satin proof dies. The die polish lines are very apparent. The 1H is very appealing and you can't go wrong if you find one.
VAM 1F: Mint state coin struck from matte proof dies.
Vam 1A: Die break in the field of the reverse. One of the hardest vams to find. But the die break is pretty wicked.
VAM 3: ray through L. These dies were touched up. Most vam 3s are not as appealing as others.
Look for a coin that is well struck with the "apple cheek" appearance and good hair details.
@Che_Grapes said:
Common low areas to look for strike weakness
A full MS coin with "flat strike luster" where the planchet metal did not touch the die. I hope @Rexford gets to see this coin so he will ee that the MS-63 Russian rouble is AU and not weakley struck.
It doesn’t always manifest the same way or need to be very extreme. That being said, there does look to be some slight dullness there on the flattest areas, and it has probably been masked by the coin having been dipped as well as the angle of the photo. Here are some other examples where dullness in the weakly struck areas is more present and visible. These are all graded PCGS MS66. I’m not super interested in debating this though - I’ve provided my opinion and you are welcome to take it or leave it.
Thank you for providing the additional images of weak/flat surfaces on those coins. IMO, it is easier to see on the undipped, frosty white example that has no friction wear and is untoned.
I'd go with the advice of others and look for quality at a good price point, stopping the tables of HA, US coins and other major dealers who stay in current auction pricing for these.
It's interesting that some dealers may see 1921 uncs. as "AU" due to the strike issue. Some years ago I bought one the dealer called AU raw I really thought would grade as an Unc., and coming back from a NJ coin show with it, stopped at an oil change place, where it was stolen from the car. I filed a police report, the cop reviewed the tapes from the business, but of course did not see the worker specifically grabbing something as would be expected. So I filed a small claims court action against the business and collected on the amount of the stolen coin and the cost of filing!
1921 Peace dollars are one of my favorite coins. I bought 2 circulated coins in the last month and one thing I've learned - It's really hard to find a problem free F-XF coin. Problem coins are all over the place and easy to find.
@airplanenut said:
I’m probably echoing things already said, but find one with a solid strike; super strong may be hard to find, but the really mushy coins don’t look great. Also wait for one with nice original surfaces. They look so much better. I have two, a 64 and a 35. Very different coins, but I love both.
The 64 has what I would label having a "ring of fire" perimeter toning. Very nice.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@Peace_dollar88 said:
Good luck in your hunt. I really
enjoy the 1921 Peace Dollar. It is especially an important coin of History to commemorate world Peace with the not so distant ending of WWI.
Lustrous coins are readily available. Don't settle for an ugly one as those are also plentiful.
Vam 1H: Mint state coin struck from satin proof dies. The die polish lines are very apparent. The 1H is very appealing and you can't go wrong if you find one.
VAM 1F: Mint state coin struck from matte proof dies.
Vam 1A: Die break in the field of the reverse. One of the hardest vams to find. But the die break is pretty wicked.
VAM 3: ray through L. These dies were touched up. Most vam 3s are not as appealing as others.
Look for a coin that is well struck with the "apple cheek" appearance and good hair details.
Don’t forget the VAM1G - same obverse as the 1F but different reverse …
More rare than the 1F (or so I’m told). It has the telltale hook above the “V” in TRVST but does not have the same reverse… unfortunately PCGS does not recognize 1G, and will typically assign 1F based on the obverse.
Personally, I'd go for a nice earlier die state VAM 1-H. They usually have good luster and can come well struck if chosen correctly. Consider paying up for a nicer one.
@FlyingAl said:
Personally, I'd go for a nice earlier die state VAM 1-H. They usually have good luster and can come well struck if chosen correctly. Consider paying up for a nicer one.
Personally, I'd go for whatever example looks to be accurately graded, pleasing to the eye and realistically priced, regardless of the die state or variety. I think it's counterproductive to limit your options, unnecessarily.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@FlyingAl said:
Personally, I'd go for a nice earlier die state VAM 1-H. They usually have good luster and can come well struck if chosen correctly. Consider paying up for a nicer one.
Personally, I'd go for whatever example looks to be accurately graded, pleasing to the eye and realistically priced, regardless of the die state or variety. I think it's counterproductive to limit your options, unnecessarily.
@FlyingAl said:
Personally, I'd go for a nice earlier die state VAM 1-H. They usually have good luster and can come well struck if chosen correctly. Consider paying up for a nicer one.
Personally, I'd go for whatever example looks to be accurately graded, pleasing to the eye and realistically priced, regardless of the die state or variety. I think it's counterproductive to limit your options, unnecessarily.
Fair enough. I'm rather particular in my likings.
As am I, which is part of the reason I prefer not to limit my options before I even start looking.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Che_Grapes said:
Common low areas to look for strike weakness
A full MS coin with "flat strike luster" where the planchet metal did not touch the die. I hope @Rexford gets to see this coin so he will ee that the MS-63 Russian rouble is AU and not weakley struck.
It doesn’t always manifest the same way or need to be very extreme. That being said, there does look to be some slight dullness there on the flattest areas, and it has probably been masked by the coin having been dipped as well as the angle of the photo. Here are some other examples where dullness in the weakly struck areas is more present and visible. These are all graded PCGS MS66. I’m not super interested in debating this though - I’ve provided my opinion and you are welcome to take it or leave it.
Since you identified yourself as a former grader that all here admire and praise, with all due respect I'm having fun posting with the big fish here and I thought I would yank your chain a little ("I hope Rexford sees this").
As you wrote, These coins are perfect examples pf the dull, usually milky-white (on silver), original surface found on weak coins that are missing details on their surface. I have several 100% original Morgan dollars with exactly the same flat, dull, luster color on the reverse wreath.
Right - you'll find that 1921 in PCGS PR64 is a much better match to the Satin Proofs - because that's what it is. The Mattes are much rarer, and much more obvious.
I'm not really an ANACS guy, but this one was a great strike! Best one I've ever seen in person, and it's quite pleasing to look at. (Same die used for the proof strikes, die 1 I believe, Vam1h.)
What I would look for is a pleasing finish and a good strike...these are all over the place.
@Namvet69 said:
I've enjoyed this topic immensely, thanks to all who contributed. So much to know about one coin. Peace Roy
Agreed. I’m somewhat knowledgeable about Peace dollars, but I learned quite a bit from this thread. Threads asking genuinely for advice seem to elicit some of the best commentary on this forum.
Comments
I agree with the comments so far, take your time and look at lots of coins. I like to see a well struck neck truncation. Here’s the MS64 in my set, and another I picked up raw in 2019. The 64 is not as well struck, but has nice luster and subtle toning. The scratches are on the holder.
The best bang for your buck is in the MS64-65 range, provided you are on a budget and this is the only high relief Peace dollar you desire for a type set. As most forumites have responded above, strike is very important for this issue and the hair on Miss Liberty is a prime focal point.
Here's my MS64 that I'm very happy to have:
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
A full MS coin with "flat strike luster" where the planchet metal did not touch the die. I hope @Rexford gets to see this coin so he will ee that the MS-63 Russian rouble is AU and not weakley struck.
Interestingly, the picture posted does not have a CAC on it; but, in checking the CAC website, it indeed owns a CAC. In terms of CAC price guide there are 714 MS64 @ $2,060 & 295 MS65 @ $3,880. In between, CACG has only graded two coins as MS64+. Would this coin merit a MS64+ from CACG?
Given that CAC coins are often priced higher than the CAC price guide, would $3,350 actually be a within reason price for this coin? But only if it ends up being graded MS64+ by CACG!
There is no question; however, as Deplorable Dan said, " ...if one were to turn around and try to sell that coin, they'd be lucky to get an offer for more than $1600. "
It doesn’t always manifest the same way or need to be very extreme. That being said, there does look to be some slight dullness there on the flattest areas, and it has probably been masked by the coin having been dipped as well as the angle of the photo. Here are some other examples where dullness in the weakly struck areas is more present and visible. These are all graded PCGS MS66. I’m not super interested in debating this though - I’ve provided my opinion and you are welcome to take it or leave it.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
FWIW, the rouble was cracked out of its MS64+ holder and sent back in. It now resides in an MS65 holder.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/43929063
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Good luck in your hunt. I really
enjoy the 1921 Peace Dollar. It is especially an important coin of History to commemorate world Peace with the not so distant ending of WWI.
Lustrous coins are readily available. Don't settle for an ugly one as those are also plentiful.
Vam 1H: Mint state coin struck from satin proof dies. The die polish lines are very apparent. The 1H is very appealing and you can't go wrong if you find one.
VAM 1F: Mint state coin struck from matte proof dies.
Vam 1A: Die break in the field of the reverse. One of the hardest vams to find. But the die break is pretty wicked.
VAM 3: ray through L. These dies were touched up. Most vam 3s are not as appealing as others.
Look for a coin that is well struck with the "apple cheek" appearance and good hair details.
Thank you for providing the additional images of weak/flat surfaces on those coins. IMO, it is easier to see on the undipped, frosty white example that has no friction wear and is untoned.
That'sprobably why PCGS is considered to be the #1.
I'd go with the advice of others and look for quality at a good price point, stopping the tables of HA, US coins and other major dealers who stay in current auction pricing for these.
It's interesting that some dealers may see 1921 uncs. as "AU" due to the strike issue. Some years ago I bought one the dealer called AU raw I really thought would grade as an Unc., and coming back from a NJ coin show with it, stopped at an oil change place, where it was stolen from the car. I filed a police report, the cop reviewed the tapes from the business, but of course did not see the worker specifically grabbing something as would be expected. So I filed a small claims court action against the business and collected on the amount of the stolen coin and the cost of filing!
I personally settled on what I consider a pretty nice MS63 coin.
That's a great example of a solid strike!
1921 Peace dollars are one of my favorite coins. I bought 2 circulated coins in the last month and one thing I've learned - It's really hard to find a problem free F-XF coin. Problem coins are all over the place and easy to find.
This thread continues to inform me before the show....you all are amazing!
The 64 has what I would label having a "ring of fire" perimeter toning. Very nice.
OP, any update? Did you find one at FUN?
I ended up getting one for myself, took my own advice since it had a nice strike 😂
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I’d look for one with a hammered strike and clean surfaces. These are not particularly rare, so be very picky.
Hey @DeplorableDan , was this your FIRST non-gold holdered coin?
Nice pickup!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Don’t forget the VAM1G - same obverse as the 1F but different reverse …
More rare than the 1F (or so I’m told). It has the telltale hook above the “V” in TRVST but does not have the same reverse… unfortunately PCGS does not recognize 1G, and will typically assign 1F based on the obverse.
Personally, I'd go for a nice earlier die state VAM 1-H. They usually have good luster and can come well struck if chosen correctly. Consider paying up for a nicer one.
Coin Photographer.
This one was purchased a long time ago, before PCGS and NGC existed. The price at the time was $85.
Personally, I'd go for whatever example looks to be accurately graded, pleasing to the eye and realistically priced, regardless of the die state or variety. I think it's counterproductive to limit your options, unnecessarily.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Fair enough. I'm rather particular in my likings.
Coin Photographer.
As am I, which is part of the reason I prefer not to limit my options before I even start looking.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I wanted hair detail over most all of the other stuff.
Wasn't picky on condition as to me it is still more modern than what I like.
So was the OP successful in sourcing a nice specimen?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The OP ended up with this one:
Not bad for a beginner-
Since you identified yourself as a former grader that all here admire and praise, with all due respect I'm having fun posting with the big fish here and I thought I would yank your chain a little ("I hope Rexford sees this").
As you wrote, These coins are perfect examples pf the dull, usually milky-white (on silver), original surface found on weak coins that are missing details on their surface. I have several 100% original Morgan dollars with exactly the same flat, dull, luster color on the reverse wreath.
And that’s a Satin not a Matte
FFL - that's a holy sheet kinda coin! So wonderful.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Right - you'll find that 1921 in PCGS PR64 is a much better match to the Satin Proofs - because that's what it is. The Mattes are much rarer, and much more obvious.
Coin Photographer.
I'm not really an ANACS guy, but this one was a great strike! Best one I've ever seen in person, and it's quite pleasing to look at. (Same die used for the proof strikes, die 1 I believe, Vam1h.)
What I would look for is a pleasing finish and a good strike...these are all over the place.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I've enjoyed this topic immensely, thanks to all who contributed. So much to know about one coin. Peace Roy
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Agreed. I’m somewhat knowledgeable about Peace dollars, but I learned quite a bit from this thread. Threads asking genuinely for advice seem to elicit some of the best commentary on this forum.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Hold it for another five years and it will be graded MS-66 but that will not change anything except its increased price.