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Peace Dollar people: If I am looking for a 1921 at FUN, what should I watch for?

Hi all! I have been thinking about getting this for my type set. I know it is popular first year of issue type, but that's about as far as my knowledge on it goes. Are these coins "all over the place" as far as quality for the grade, or are they pretty solid without a lot of messing around with? What else should I know? (Obviously I will look for strike quality, recent auction prices yada yada yada, but I do not own a peace dollar yet so I thought I'd ask some people who know more than me! :)

Also: Any recommended Peace dealers for this particular coin? Are there Peace specialists I should be looking for on the floor at FUN?

Thanks in advance! :)

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Comments

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1921 peace dollars seem hugely variable to me, even in graded holders, but I am not very knowledgeable on the series and I don’t own one.
    1. Look at strike, particularly obverse hair detail. These were struck in higher relief but the quality varies, even among the different dies used. The vam guys could tell you more.
    2. Surface quality. Many have been wiped or look funky. My favorites in unc have a “dusty” lustrous look to the surfaces.
    3. Rims. Carefully check for small dings etc which can make it into holders.
    4. Grade. There are some nice looking 63s and 64s out there but also a lot of junk. Cac sticker can help weed some out.
    5. Toning. Peace dollars generally don’t come with nice toning, and most I’ve seen on 21s is brownish. I’d avoid any with brown toning or post dip retoning.

  • Sorry I only have a 1922 MS63 on ebay buy it now

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Weiss has one that I always use as a reference for an example I’d like to own.

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,842 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 10:08AM

    I would keep an eye out for one that is well struck, has decent luster and limited abrasions on its surface. The ‘21, since it’s high relief, tends to have weakness in the Liberty’s hair area. Keep an eye out for that.

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set:

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Paradisefound has a wonderfully struck example also.

  • TheLiberatorTheLiberator Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭

    You all are amazing! Thanks so much!!! I am going to look at as many as I can and take my time. If I am not happy, I simply won't buy that day!

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,346 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am a fan of the re-engraved Vam-3

  • NicNic Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Go to the Heritage FUN Auction lot viewing since you are attending the show. Great free education on how the services look at the issue.

  • Che_GrapesChe_Grapes Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My favorite 20 century coin - get it graded (not raw) and look for strike and eye appeal


  • Che_GrapesChe_Grapes Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Few more pics of some 63 and 64 graded 21s.

    Always look for the VAM 1F or 1G which was made with a proof obverse. There is a hook over the “V” in TRVST…










  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2023 1:11PM

    If you can find one that looks like this one that I picked up then you'll be doing ok. I got this one raw and its still raw.


    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,600 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Look at every 1921 Peace dollar you can find, taking notes of which ones you like. The one you like best will be lustrous, well struck, and not exorbitantly priced. Buy that one.

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Take your time. They’re readily available and you can be very picky. There are ~150 listed on Collectors Corner.

    https://www.collectorscorner.com/Category/Category.aspx?catId=26&pId=2

  • You have not given us enough information about yourself or your finances . If you have the money, just tell one of the very successful dealers at FUN or even someone at Heritage or Great Collections that you are going to buy one for sure that day and to get you two or three examples to look at together (MS-65 or highrer with green CAC sticker) so you can choose one. This will be very expensive, and two dealers will be extremely happy with their profit for the time spent.

    If you are like most of us, look at every high grade coin you can find in a slab. Don't be afraid to ask questions. After a while, you should have learned what unbroken,blazing white luster void of detracting marks looks like on one of these coins. Avoid any dull or toned coins no matter what they are graded. Learn to detect hairlines. That will be the main reason coins in slabs will look undergraded to yu. Then buy the highest graded, least expensive one you can afford. Remember all MS-65's are not the same and all dealers are different. If you find a good dealer who knows what they are doing and you become a regular customer it will save you money. They will give you better prices and they will even buy coins you want from another at a discount when they can get it. The coins I like and cannot afford are rarely discounted. The important thing to remember as a buyer is whatever you are spending you know the coin is worth it. However, the best coins in my collection have been the ones I had rarely seen as nice that I kicked myself all the way home for buying! They always "sold themselves" for a profit.

    PS When I bought my first 1921, it took several shows and over a year, I had looked at every coin graded 65 and over by one of the TPGS, especially with CAC stickers. Then, I bought the most similar raw, 100% original coin to them I found. The strike on the front was not quite as full but it was very good. When I learned about Peace dollar VAMS, I discovered my long gone coin that everyone tried to buy was struck with Proof dies. The knowledge you can gain about what you are buying give you a step up from the rest of the pck.

  • Don't buy anything unless the seller will let you leave a deposit and your drivers license with him so you can take the coin over to the ANA graders for their opinion before you buy it.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Married2Coins said:
    Don't buy anything unless the seller will let you leave a deposit and your drivers license with him so you can take the coin over to the ANA graders for their opinion before you buy it.

    I like your advice, but a couple of points:
    1. What do you mean by “ ANA” graders at the show? Do you mean most dealers who are members of ANA? Do you mean PCGS and or NGC graders, who will be at the show? However, they don’t look at coins at the show and give opinions. They’re there to accept submitted coins for grading, so this suggestion will not work.
    2. In your top reply, you suggest buying coins at the show from Heritage or GC. However, they don’t have coins to sell at the show, they only have coins that are consigned for upcoming auctions.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,731 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:

    @Married2Coins said:
    Don't buy anything unless the seller will let you leave a deposit and your drivers license with him so you can take the coin over to the ANA graders for their opinion before you buy it.

    I like your advice, but a couple of points:
    1. What do you mean by “ ANA” graders at the show? Do you mean most dealers who are members of ANA? Do you mean PCGS and or NGC graders, who will be at the show? However, they don’t look at coins at the show and give opinions. They’re there to accept submitted coins for grading, so this suggestion will not work.
    2. In your top reply, you suggest buying coins at the show from Heritage or GC. However, they don’t have coins to sell at the show, they only have coins that are consigned for upcoming auctions.

    Steve

    Heritage often has its own inventory coins available for purchase at major shows.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • @winesteven said:

    @Married2Coins said:
    Don't buy anything unless the seller will let you leave a deposit and your drivers license with him so you can take the coin over to the ANA graders for their opinion before you buy it.

    I like your advice, but a couple of points:
    1. What do you mean by “ ANA” graders at the show? Do you mean most dealers who are members of ANA? Do you mean PCGS and or NGC graders, who will be at the show? However, they don’t look at coins at the show and give opinions. They’re there to accept submitted coins for grading, so this suggestion will not work.
    2. In your top reply, you suggest buying coins at the show from Heritage or GC. However, they don’t have coins to sell at the show, they only have coins that are consigned for upcoming auctions.

    Steve

    ANACS graders give free opinions at shows like FUN where they actually have a grader rather that a person just taking submissions.

    I believe any major, competent numismatist such as Julian Leidman, Laura Spurber (sp), Ian at GC whold be happy to round up a few coins that can be viewed together for a short time (for a commission) from other dealers they know that are already slabbed for a wealthy client to pick from.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 31, 2023 12:57PM

    I stand corrected, and for dinner tonight, will be eating crow, lol.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • Che_GrapesChe_Grapes Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I disagree that you’ll have a large selection to choose from at the show - I bet there will be maybe 3 tops that are worth a damn

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,731 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Che_Grapes said:
    I disagree that you’ll have a large selection to choose from at the show - I bet there will be maybe 3 tops that are worth a damn

    I’m not sure of your requirements for “worth a damn” but I disagree that there “will be maybe be 3 tops”.😉

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see 2-3 1921 Peace dollars (give/take) at almost every show I work for ANACS. I would say that at least 85% of those coins have been cleaned or messed with in some way, to the point where when a really nice one comes through it's a memorable event. I suggest if you can't tell the difference between original and cleaned or whizzed coins, buy a certified one.

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • TrampTramp Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Be selective and patient. They can be had in raw and certified but in raw there may be a good reason it's raw and not certified. I nabbed this one raw a few years ago at an auction, it's still raw and may stay that way. It's definitely not gem and it may have been cleaned at some point in it's life but the stronger than usual strike was the drawl for me; nice hairline and feather details. It has a slight lamination going on at her neck too. Couldn't go wrong at $200 for some better than usual details.

    Good luck!

    USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
    My current Registry sets:
    ✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
    ✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
    ✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)

  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 31, 2023 1:29PM

    @Married2Coins said:
    I believe any major, competent numismatist such as Julian Leidman, Laura Spurber (sp), Ian at GC whold be happy to round up a few coins that can be viewed together for a short time (for a commission) from other dealers they know that are already slabbed for a wealthy client to pick from.

    A. That is an extremely unlikely scenario. Unless one is a big time player and has a close, personal relationship,, maybe this would happen if looking at 66+ or 67 21 HRs, of which anyone will have a very difficult time finding at any time, much less at one show.

    B. One of those names is not like the rest https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13635026

    Edit for spelling

  • TrampTramp Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld

    Lighting. I'm definitely not the best photographer.

    USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
    My current Registry sets:
    ✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
    ✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
    ✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)

  • DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,476 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 31, 2023 3:28PM

    @lermish said:

    @Married2Coins said:
    I believe any major, competent numismatist such as Julian Leidman, Laura Spurber (sp), Ian at GC whold be happy to round up a few coins that can be viewed together for a short time (for a commission) from other dealers they know that are already slabbed for a wealthy client to pick from.

    A. That is an extremely unlikely scenario. Unless one is a big time player and has a close, personal relationship,, maybe this would happen if looking at 66+ or 67 21 HRs, of which anyone will have a very difficult time finding at any time, much less at one show.

    B. One of those names is not like the rest https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13635026

    Edit for spelling

    Thank you for the "B" portion of your comment, as I was scrolling down I was hoping someone had made that correction already. I agree with "A" as well.

  • DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,476 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 31, 2023 3:27PM

    @MFeld said:

    @Tramp said:
    Be selective and patient. They can be had in raw and certified but in raw there may be a good reason it's raw and not certified. I nabbed this one raw a few years ago at an auction, it's still raw and may stay that way. It's definitely not gem and it may have been cleaned at some point in it's life but the stronger than usual strike was the drawl for me; nice hairline and feather details. It has a slight lamination going on at her neck too. Couldn't go wrong at $200 for some better than usual details.

    Good luck!

    I guess it’s possible that it’s just the lighting, but that coin looks like it’s been polished.

    I agree, the surfaces are not ideal. The strike is superb though.

  • bretsanbretsan Posts: 103 ✭✭✭

    Here’s a couple of mine for comparison. The MS64 has a better strike vs. the MS63. You can see more detail in Liberty’s hair towards the center of the obverse. I highly recommend buying the Red Books Peace Dollar Guide. I put a pic at the end for reference. It has some great images that illustrate the varying strike quality for 21 Peace dollars.


  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A great book, and an absolute necessity for anyone putting together a DATE set (like me), or a full date and mint mark set.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,595 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am with @winesteven on this one. My first stop would be at Mike's Coin Chest to talk with Shaun about the 3 1921's he has in stock. Beautiful examples to consider. He carries the best of the best.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 1, 2024 6:01AM

    @david3142 said:

    @pcgscacgold said:
    I am with @winesteven on this one. My first stop would be at Mike's Coin Chest to talk with Shaun about the 3 1921's he has in stock. Beautiful examples to consider. He carries the best of the best.

    Mike’s Coin Chest definitely has nice coins but their pricing is very high. The two 64 Peace Dollars on their site are listed at $3350. The highest recent auction price I see for that coin is $1800. Nice coins should absolutely sell for more money but there’s premium pricing and there’s 2x market pricing…

    Perhaps your point is correct. But the way you presented your point makes it sound like coins are commodities, and that every 1921 Peace MS64 graded by PCGS with a CAC sticker should be valued identically.

    I do see that on the PCGS Auction prices website the most recent sale did indeed sell for $1,800 (from Stacks). Here's the True View of that coin:

    Here's one of the 1921 coins that Shaun is offering for $3,350. I admit eye appeal is super subjective, and as such, I believe many collectors might indeed prefer the look of the Stack's $1,800 coin. I also know I clearly prefer the appearance of Shaun's coin (NO True View is available, only the slab shots), and I believe MANY other collectors would prefer that coin as well. Here's Shaun's description of that coin:

    This 1921 PCGS MS64 CAC Peace Dollar has pristine surfaces that glow with luster. Great example for the date and grade.

    Admittedly, while many would prefer Shaun's coin, I understand that the asking price of $3,350 is high, but he will negotiate on price. Maybe not enough for many buyers, but my point is one should not assume that every coin in a grade is valued the same, and many times a coin (even with a CAC sticker, graded by PCGS) selling at a low price may indeed NOT be a bargain!


    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,595 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here I go again, agreeing with @winesteven

    If I were in the market for a Peace Dollar (I used to collect them but have moved to gold and CBH's) I would make sure to talk to Shaun. He has built some of the best Morgan and Peace dollar collections of all time.

    I would not be a buyer of the Stacks coin and would expect to pay (and willing to pay) more than that for the MCC coin. The OP said they wanted to find out about Peace Dollar specialists. Well, MCC is one of those. Hopefully the OP can stop by his table. He has 3 of them and another person stated there wouldn't even be 3 at the entire show.

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’d give Larry Shapiro and Don Rinkor a look.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 1, 2024 6:24AM

    @BryceM said:
    I’d give Larry Shapiro and Don Rinkor a look.

    I spoke with Larry after i made my reply above. He won't be at the show, but people can look at his website for coins. Regardless, like Shaun at Mike's Coin Chest (Table # 304), Larry Shapiro and Rinkor Coins (Table #811-815) price their nice material for the grade high.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 1, 2024 6:47AM

    Understood. As noted, the $3,350 ASKING price is high, but my point was eye appeal is subjective, and with that in mind, I fully understand why the Heritage coin you show sold for only $1,500. Was that a bargain? To some collectors maybe. To most, I don't think so. Admittedly, based only on the photos, the GC coin is nicer than the $1,500 Heritage coin (to me).

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,731 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:
    I have owned many, but the first half-dozen or so really weren't that great. If I was spending much at all, I'd absolutely get one slabbed by NGC or PCGS (or CACG).

    Unless you basically have an unlimited budget, and you're chasing an MS67 coin, you really can't have it all. Strike, color, luster, and surface preservation all have potential problems.

    For me, some thing truly eye appealing is pretty darn hard to find, but they do exist, at a few different grade levels. Strike is important. None are great. Most are abysmal. A few are above average. Take your time. It took me the better part of a decade to find one that suits me. I'm not letting it go either. It's technically excellent, and it just visually captivating. This is one of a handful of coins I decided to keep when I sold everything else:

    image

    This one came to me a while back, and was recently sold. It has loads of personality, technically nice enough, and not tremendously expensive:

    image

    Here's a circulated one that caught my eye:

    image

    Bottom line, find something that isn't boring!

    Bryce, I’m glad you kept your MS66 example. When I saw this thread, it was the first coin I thought of.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Che_GrapesChe_Grapes Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Common low areas to look for strike weakness

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