@Walkerfan said:
Even though it’s within the rules; I feel that it’s dishonorable.
Agreed.
During the pandemic I had adult stepkids who would buy items like beds and then "return" them knowing that the online seller would not bother with having the item shipped back, so they essentially got an item for free. While "within the rules" I would politely advise them that it is bad business and borderline unethical. Ultimately, I think most online sellers got wise to such "return abuse".
Ethical - not sure. Nice - definitely not. Not to mention that getting, submitting, processing and returning is a LOT of steps to routinely satisfy within 30 days. The buyer would run the high risk of getting "stuck" with coins.
This is a problem that does not garnish much sympathy from me, but should be considered by people who are trying to play this game. Chronic returns will definitely sour the buyers reputation in the marketplace.
The more thought I give this - the worse the idea gets.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Ebay allows it, but I would block anyone that did this (and I found out about it). People that engage in returns like this would ruin returns for everyone else. This sort of exploitation of good faith is what leads to more rules and restrictions on something that is a nice benefit that most sellers provide.
@ironmanl63 said:
I am not advocating someone doing what the OP asked. But to say that that a person is not ethical to use your ridiculous policy is not fair!
I don’t think the policy is ridiculous. And I don’t take it as a given, that just because a buyer (supposedly) complies with eBay policy, he’s ethical. As just one example, a buyer can return a coin by claiming it’s not as described, but some buyers use that loophole for coins that are described.
By claiming it is not as described when it is as described they would be undeniably unethical! This has nothing to do with someone using the entire time of YOUR ridiculous 30 day return policy! You are in fact saying I am selling you this coin and you have 30 days to return it no questions asked. Why would that person be unethical for using the 30 days as they see fit. If they decided to carry the coin around in their shorts for 30 days and then return it would they be unethical! To call someone unethical is a big deal to me. You may say that is not a cool thing to do and I would agree. Would anyone want to deal with an unethical person? Does using a return policy that the seller is offering to you make you unethical? In a business were a person being ethical is a make or brake consideration I would not throw that accusation around lightly! I would most certainly not call someone unethical for using a policy that I offered to them of my own free will.
I would not do what the OP is asking but someone who does is not being unethical. As CaptHenway says they may be Jerky but in no way are they unethical.
Would Heritage employ you if you were an unethical person? How about if you used a return policy that was offered to you?
It's a tough question but when buying online you have the responsibility to decide if the coin is as described and then decide to send it back if it doesn't. Seven days should be enough to get a second opinion. Nothing unethical in returning a coin that doesn't meet your standards for the grade expressed by the seller. I purchased a raw gold eagle from a dealer, a well known dealer, on eBay. Trusting in their expertise I sent it into PCGS for slabbing. Coin that was "guaranteed" as an AU58, came back not gradeable-repaired. I could not see the repair but I did pass it around to dealers at the last PCGS Vegas show and many were able to point out the repair. (My vision must be failing) Bottom line I contacted the seller and they refused to take the coin back. So for me it's not unethical to return a purchase.
It is unethical, you are taking advantage of a generous return policy.
Doesn't mean you can't or won't do it. Who am I to judge.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
Certainly there are buyers looking pick off non CAC material they can get sticker on then price / value it at the CAC CDN CPG price. In many instances the CAC premium per CPG can be quite substantial. I think this why a lot of them want the sticker option to continue along with the choice sending in for CACG Grading.
My recommendation if one an eBay seller have a 14 day return policy. Or just don’t accept returns at all. Either one what the op described above blocked.
For shows I have a sight seen sales - no returns accepted sign so that would block them if it was a show purchase.
@neildrobertson said:
Ebay allows it, but I would block anyone that did this (and I found out about it). People that engage in returns like this would ruin returns for everyone else. This sort of exploitation of good faith is what leads to more rules and restrictions on something that is a nice benefit that most sellers provide.
Do most sellers provide a 30 day return privilege? If you offered 14 day return privilege instead of 30 would returns be ruined?
@neildrobertson said:
Ebay allows it, but I would block anyone that did this (and I found out about it). People that engage in returns like this would ruin returns for everyone else. This sort of exploitation of good faith is what leads to more rules and restrictions on something that is a nice benefit that most sellers provide.
Do most sellers provide a 30 day return privilege? If you offered 14 day return privilege instead of 30 would returns be ruined?
As @TwoSides2aCoin pointed out in a post above eBay requires 30day returns policy to maintain top rated seller, which comes with a fee discount. Ridiculous? Absolutely, but the amount of money saved in fees makes some sellers comply with the preferred eBay policy. Some choose not to go along and pay higher fees.
I agree that I don’t necessarily consider it unethical, but definitely a “d” move. Unless a seller specifically states the coin will CAC the buyer shouldn’t make the seller assume additional risk and expenses if it doesn’t sticker.
In my personal experience, I saw no difference in the amount of returns when I switched from 14 to 30 day returns. The very few returns I do get are usually within a day or two of the buyer receiving the coin. Maybe 1 or 2 a year.
Under Ebay return policy one of the reasons is changed my mind. There are no qualifiers as to why you changed your mind. You have 30 days to decide. If you changed your mind because CAC would not sticker the coin does that make you unethical.
Listen I am not saying that people should do what the OP asked. You may call them any number of things for doing what the op asked but unethical is not one of them.
I looked up the definition of unethical and it is a very wide definition. I personally think being called unethical is a devastating thing for an individual. There are many thing you could say about taking advantage of a lenient policy. I just would not go as far as to call someone unethical.
@neildrobertson said:
Ebay allows it, but I would block anyone that did this (and I found out about it). People that engage in returns like this would ruin returns for everyone else. This sort of exploitation of good faith is what leads to more rules and restrictions on something that is a nice benefit that most sellers provide.
Do most sellers provide a 30 day return privilege? If you offered 14 day return privilege instead of 30 would returns be ruined?
As @TwoSides2aCoin pointed out in a post above eBay requires 30day returns policy to maintain top rated seller, which comes with a fee discount. Ridiculous? Absolutely, but the amount of money saved in fees makes some sellers comply with the preferred eBay policy. Some choose not to go along and pay higher fees.
I agree that I don’t necessarily consider it unethical, but definitely a “d” move. Unless a seller specifically states the coin will CAC the buyer shouldn’t make the seller assume additional risk and expenses if it doesn’t sticker.
In my personal experience, I saw no difference in the amount of returns when I switched from 14 to 30 day returns. The very few returns I do get are usually within a day or two of the buyer receiving the coin. Maybe 1 or 2 a year.
I was unaware that Ebay had such a policy. Makes no sense. A 7 day policy is more than sufficient.
@RiveraFamilyCollect said:
It is unethical, you are taking advantage of a generous return policy.
Doesn't mean you can't or won't do it. Who am I to judge.
I called a hypothetical action unethical, not the person.
And it doesn't matter what I think, ethics are personal.
It's really only unethical if it violates your own personal morals.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
@RiveraFamilyCollect said:
I called a hypothetical action unethical, not the person.
And it doesn't matter what I think, ethics are personal.
It's really only unethical if it violates your own personal morals.
@Walkerlover said:
My question is dealing with purchasing a coin say on EBay with a 30 day money back return policy. Would it be unethical to submit it to CAC first and keep it if it stickered but return it if it fails. Disclaimer, I haven’t done it or contemplated it but was curious what others think. Perhaps some people have done this already.
1) I can't imagine anyone giving a 30 day no questions asked return, so the question doesn't make sense.
2) I saw a coin I liked, and got the dealer's best price. I've known the dealer for quite some time. Asked what such coin would go for with a sticker, and got a reply. Asked dealer to submit coin to CAC, with the understanding that I'd buy it at the higher price if it stickered, and the lower price if it didn't sticker. The coin didn't sticker, I bought it and still have it.
I can see a five day return privilege, but when you're buying something, as far as I'm concerned, you pass or play.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@BryceM said:
If you returned a coin to me near the 30 day return window, I'd quietly take it back, issue a refund, and then block your bidding account.
Legal? Yes.
Ethical? Perhaps by some shadowy definition.
Nice? Nope.
From your response it appears that the reason does not matter to you. Wether the coin was to CAC or not you would ban that buyer. The only question I have is why would you offer something that you would ban a buyer for using.
I would never offer a 30 day return policy. Period!
@BryceM said:
If you returned a coin to me near the 30 day return window, I'd quietly take it back, issue a refund, and then block your bidding account.
Legal? Yes.
Ethical? Perhaps by some shadowy definition.
Nice? Nope.
From your response it appears that the reason does not matter to you. Wether the coin was to CAC or not you would ban that buyer. The only question I have is why would you offer something that you would ban a buyer for using.
I would never offer a 30 day return policy. Period!
Unless you take cash only, you're offering a 180 to 540 day return window.
I think the reason does matter to him. He said near the 90 day window not at the beginning. He's assuming that the delay is due to him either submitting it or shopping or around.
@RiveraFamilyCollect said:
I called a hypothetical action unethical, not the person.
And it doesn't matter what I think, ethics are personal.
It's really only unethical if it violates your own personal morals.
Really? So if I believe in slavery, that makes it ethical?
I've wasted a lot of emotional energy thanks to Catholic school. Little did I know I should have adopted Hedonism in my youth.
@ironmanl63 said:
I am against this and would not do it myself. In fact If this was done to me I would not be happy at all. Would probably ban the buyer.
I am just hung up on calling someone unethical.
I probably should not be and will stop responding this way.
I would be fine with calling them an a-hole.
I am beginning to wish I never responded to this post.
This was posed as general question by me to see how collectors felt morally, not to promote or endorse this type of thing. I didn’t expect quite the degree of response. But I think you do make a reasonable distinction between unethical and taking advantage of a longer 30 day seller return window.
If a seller offers a 30 day return policy and then blocks a bidder who uses that policy, the seller seems like the one who's ethics should be questioned. Why would you block someone who used what was offered?? That doesn't make sense.
@BryceM said:
If you returned a coin to me near the 30 day return window, I'd quietly take it back, issue a refund, and then block your bidding account.
Legal? Yes.
Ethical? Perhaps by some shadowy definition.
Nice? Nope.
From your response it appears that the reason does not matter to you. Wether the coin was to CAC or not you would ban that buyer. The only question I have is why would you offer something that you would ban a buyer for using.
I would never offer a 30 day return policy. Period!
Unless you take cash only, you're offering a 180 to 540 day return window.
I think the reason does matter to him. He said near the 90 day window not at the beginning. He's assuming that the delay is due to him either submitting it or shopping or around.
Or maybe the buyer became ill with no one to handle their affairs causing a delay. Then health improved but closer to the end of the 30 day return window. There are many other unseen/unplanned for reasons.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
As @TwoSides2aCoin pointed out in a post above eBay requires 30day returns policy to maintain top rated seller, which comes with a fee discount. Ridiculous? Absolutely, but the amount of money saved in fees makes some sellers comply with the preferred eBay policy. Some choose not to go along and pay higher fees.
I agree that I don’t necessarily consider it unethical, but definitely a “d” move. Unless a seller specifically states the coin will CAC the buyer shouldn’t make the seller assume additional risk and expenses if it doesn’t sticker.
In my personal experience, I saw no difference in the amount of returns when I switched from 14 to 30 day returns. The very few returns I do get are usually within a day or two of the buyer receiving the coin. Maybe 1 or 2 a year.
I was unaware that Ebay had such a policy. Makes no sense. A 7 day policy is more than sufficient.
Yep. It sucks eBay has a one-size-fits-all approach to Top Rated Plus status. Coins don't need a 30 day return policy. 1 week is plenty.
I just had a guy return a PCGS AU53 Morgan because of a "scratch" on the reverse that he said if he sent to NGC would be Details. When he returned it, the reason selected was Defective. Total BS. I took the return without complaint because I agree the scratch wasn't that evident in the photos, I wish he would have just said he got it and didn't like it or didn't realize the scratch was there. But to say an AU53 coin that PCGS blessed is defective? OK Buddy.
No matter how good the pics provided by the seller are, sometimes a coin bought mail order over the internet looks different in hand. Is it so wrong to get a second opinion on a coin before you commit to keeping the coin? Isn't that the purpose of offering a return period?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I think it's not nice doing what you are saying. Isn't it the same buying a coin with a 30-return privilege and submitting the coin to a third-party grading service looking for an upgrade and if you get it you keep the coin but if you don't return to coin. Just seem right unless you inform the buyer that you are doing that in advance. You are effectively removing a coin from a seller's inventory for a period of time that has a high probable chance of having it returned. Not sure if its unethical but clearly not nice or a counter party that I would like to deal with if I was the seller.
@EastonCollection said:
I think it's not nice doing what you are saying. Isn't it the same buying a coin with a 30-return privilege and submitting the coin to a third-party grading service looking for an upgrade and if you get it you keep the coin but if you don't return to coin. Just seem right unless you inform the buyer that you are doing that in advance. You are effectively removing a coin from a seller's inventory for a period of time that has a high probable chance of having it returned. Not sure if its unethical but clearly not nice or a counter party that I would like to deal with if I was the seller.
I can't imagine anyone doing this considering the high cost of sending it back for reconsideration and the cost of insured shipping both ways. Also, good luck getting all of this done in just 30 days.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
@PerryHall said:
No matter how good the pics provided by the seller are, sometimes a coin bought mail order over the internet looks different in hand. Is it so wrong to get a second opinion on a coin before you commit to keeping the coin? Isn't that the purpose of offering a return period?
Isn't your own opinion good enough? You either like the coin when it arrives or you don't.
@PerryHall said:
No matter how good the pics provided by the seller are, sometimes a coin bought mail order over the internet looks different in hand. Is it so wrong to get a second opinion on a coin before you commit to keeping the coin? Isn't that the purpose of offering a return period?
Isn't your own opinion good enough? You either like the coin when it arrives or you don't.
My own opinion is good enough. I'm asking for those CAC fan boys that need a second opinion before they buy a coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I for one would never consider doing this. A person is basically using anothers inventory to get a coin stickered, thus raising the value at no risk to themselves. If it upgrades, the don't return it but you can bet the bank they're not paying extra to the seller, probably not even saying they sent it in for a sticker.
A play on words whether one calls it unethical or whatever. But it certainly isn't the honest thing to do. If I was the seller and found out that the prospective buyer was doing this, we would not be doing business again.
@EastonCollection said:
I think it's not nice doing what you are saying. Isn't it the same buying a coin with a 30-return privilege and submitting the coin to a third-party grading service looking for an upgrade and if you get it you keep the coin but if you don't return to coin. Just seem right unless you inform the buyer that you are doing that in advance. You are effectively removing a coin from a seller's inventory for a period of time that has a high probable chance of having it returned. Not sure if its unethical but clearly not nice or a counter party that I would like to deal with if I was the seller.
I can't imagine anyone doing this considering the high cost of sending it back for reconsideration and the cost of insured shipping both ways. Also, good luck getting all of this done in just 30 days.
There are hundreds or thousands of coins you can buy for $500-1000, and make an educated gamble that they upgrade a point or a + and make $500, 1000 or more. So if you can identify a coin with potential and risk $100-150 on an express submission to make 10x, it's not a bad gamble.
@BryceM said:
If you returned a coin to me near the 30 day return window, I'd quietly take it back, issue a refund, and then block your bidding account.
Legal? Yes.
Ethical? Perhaps by some shadowy definition.
Nice? Nope.
From your response it appears that the reason does not matter to you. Wether the coin was to CAC or not you would ban that buyer. The only question I have is why would you offer something that you would ban a buyer for using.
I would never offer a 30 day return policy. Period!
Unless you take cash only, you're offering a 180 to 540 day return window.
I think the reason does matter to him. He said near the 90 day window not at the beginning. He's assuming that the delay is due to him either submitting it or shopping or around.
Or maybe the buyer became ill with no one to handle their affairs causing a delay. Then health improved but closer to the end of the 30 day return window. There are many other unseen/unplanned for reasons.
@Maywood said:
If a seller offers a 30 day return policy and then blocks a bidder who uses that policy, the seller seems like the one who's ethics should be questioned. Why would you block someone who used what was offered?? That doesn't make sense.
Return policies can be abused. They are offered as an incentive and a convenience to give people the chance to return an item they are unhappy with. They aren't designed to give a person the opportunity to profit at no risk.
Think about it. You could make a fortune by buying bullion, hoping it goes up and returning it at the seller's expense if it didn't. That is not the purpose of allowing returns.
During a 14 or 30 day RP, who owns the coin? I'd think the seller is the owner. I won't waste my time spelling out what this all entails except for one. The cgc should have some kind of database that connects up cert #s on slabbed coins with their owners b/c if someone tries to submit a certified coin during a transition and it's learned they don't own it and it does upgrade then the coin by default should be sent back to the owner and not given back to the submitter/buyer. And negotiations can just start all over again, right?
Oh no, have I just given another profitable idea to the cgc's again? Insurance?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Comments
Agreed.
During the pandemic I had adult stepkids who would buy items like beds and then "return" them knowing that the online seller would not bother with having the item shipped back, so they essentially got an item for free. While "within the rules" I would politely advise them that it is bad business and borderline unethical. Ultimately, I think most online sellers got wise to such "return abuse".
Ethical - not sure. Nice - definitely not. Not to mention that getting, submitting, processing and returning is a LOT of steps to routinely satisfy within 30 days. The buyer would run the high risk of getting "stuck" with coins.
This is a problem that does not garnish much sympathy from me, but should be considered by people who are trying to play this game. Chronic returns will definitely sour the buyers reputation in the marketplace.
The more thought I give this - the worse the idea gets.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Ebay seller is selling the coin due to CAC denial but has not disclosed it in the sale, would this regard the seller as 'jerky'?
Ebay allows it, but I would block anyone that did this (and I found out about it). People that engage in returns like this would ruin returns for everyone else. This sort of exploitation of good faith is what leads to more rules and restrictions on something that is a nice benefit that most sellers provide.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
By claiming it is not as described when it is as described they would be undeniably unethical! This has nothing to do with someone using the entire time of YOUR ridiculous 30 day return policy! You are in fact saying I am selling you this coin and you have 30 days to return it no questions asked. Why would that person be unethical for using the 30 days as they see fit. If they decided to carry the coin around in their shorts for 30 days and then return it would they be unethical! To call someone unethical is a big deal to me. You may say that is not a cool thing to do and I would agree. Would anyone want to deal with an unethical person? Does using a return policy that the seller is offering to you make you unethical? In a business were a person being ethical is a make or brake consideration I would not throw that accusation around lightly! I would most certainly not call someone unethical for using a policy that I offered to them of my own free will.
I would not do what the OP is asking but someone who does is not being unethical. As CaptHenway says they may be Jerky but in no way are they unethical.
Would Heritage employ you if you were an unethical person? How about if you used a return policy that was offered to you?
It's a tough question but when buying online you have the responsibility to decide if the coin is as described and then decide to send it back if it doesn't. Seven days should be enough to get a second opinion. Nothing unethical in returning a coin that doesn't meet your standards for the grade expressed by the seller. I purchased a raw gold eagle from a dealer, a well known dealer, on eBay. Trusting in their expertise I sent it into PCGS for slabbing. Coin that was "guaranteed" as an AU58, came back not gradeable-repaired. I could not see the repair but I did pass it around to dealers at the last PCGS Vegas show and many were able to point out the repair. (My vision must be failing) Bottom line I contacted the seller and they refused to take the coin back. So for me it's not unethical to return a purchase.
It is unethical, you are taking advantage of a generous return policy.
Doesn't mean you can't or won't do it. Who am I to judge.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
Certainly there are buyers looking pick off non CAC material they can get sticker on then price / value it at the CAC CDN CPG price. In many instances the CAC premium per CPG can be quite substantial. I think this why a lot of them want the sticker option to continue along with the choice sending in for CACG Grading.
My recommendation if one an eBay seller have a 14 day return policy. Or just don’t accept returns at all. Either one what the op described above blocked.
For shows I have a sight seen sales - no returns accepted sign so that would block them if it was a show purchase.
I have bought coins on fuzzy pics hoping for a banger cherrypick.... only to be fooled.
I eat my losses.
When a raw coin is unslabbed... I ask why?
When a slabbed coin is not CAC'd... I ask why?
Common sense should dictate a coin has been considered or sent to CAC.
Yes it is unethical
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Yes!
Do most sellers provide a 30 day return privilege? If you offered 14 day return privilege instead of 30 would returns be ruined?
As @TwoSides2aCoin pointed out in a post above eBay requires 30day returns policy to maintain top rated seller, which comes with a fee discount. Ridiculous? Absolutely, but the amount of money saved in fees makes some sellers comply with the preferred eBay policy. Some choose not to go along and pay higher fees.
I agree that I don’t necessarily consider it unethical, but definitely a “d” move. Unless a seller specifically states the coin will CAC the buyer shouldn’t make the seller assume additional risk and expenses if it doesn’t sticker.
In my personal experience, I saw no difference in the amount of returns when I switched from 14 to 30 day returns. The very few returns I do get are usually within a day or two of the buyer receiving the coin. Maybe 1 or 2 a year.
My Ebay Store
Ask yourself what would you think if you were the seller.
I would think, lame that person returned the coin 30 days after they received it. Maybe I should not offer such a long return window!
I would not think, what an unethical person using the return policy I offered them. How dare them.
I am not saying people should do what the op asked. I am saying that you should not brand them an unethical person for using a policy YOU OFFERED!
Under Ebay return policy one of the reasons is changed my mind. There are no qualifiers as to why you changed your mind. You have 30 days to decide. If you changed your mind because CAC would not sticker the coin does that make you unethical.
Listen I am not saying that people should do what the OP asked. You may call them any number of things for doing what the op asked but unethical is not one of them.
I looked up the definition of unethical and it is a very wide definition. I personally think being called unethical is a devastating thing for an individual. There are many thing you could say about taking advantage of a lenient policy. I just would not go as far as to call someone unethical.
I was unaware that Ebay had such a policy. Makes no sense. A 7 day policy is more than sufficient.
I called a hypothetical action unethical, not the person.
And it doesn't matter what I think, ethics are personal.
It's really only unethical if it violates your own personal morals.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
Not a real nice way of doing business.
Can’t believe the amount of hang up on this CAC thing. Did you like the coin when you received it?
EAC 6024
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
A credit card charge back would allow you 180 days or more... no matter what the seller thinks their policy is.
I was once forced to take a return after 170 days in a kilo of silver. Price of silver has dropped $3+ per ounce.
1) I can't imagine anyone giving a 30 day no questions asked return, so the question doesn't make sense.
2) I saw a coin I liked, and got the dealer's best price. I've known the dealer for quite some time. Asked what such coin would go for with a sticker, and got a reply. Asked dealer to submit coin to CAC, with the understanding that I'd buy it at the higher price if it stickered, and the lower price if it didn't sticker. The coin didn't sticker, I bought it and still have it.
I can see a five day return privilege, but when you're buying something, as far as I'm concerned, you pass or play.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I think it’s a sad comment on modern ethics that someone would even have to ask this question.
If you returned a coin to me near the 30 day return window, I'd quietly take it back, issue a refund, and then block your bidding account.
Legal? Yes.
Ethical? Perhaps by some shadowy definition.
Nice? Nope.
From your response it appears that the reason does not matter to you. Wether the coin was to CAC or not you would ban that buyer. The only question I have is why would you offer something that you would ban a buyer for using.
I would never offer a 30 day return policy. Period!
Unless you take cash only, you're offering a 180 to 540 day return window.
I think the reason does matter to him. He said near the 90 day window not at the beginning. He's assuming that the delay is due to him either submitting it or shopping or around.
Really? So if I believe in slavery, that makes it ethical?
I've wasted a lot of emotional energy thanks to Catholic school. Little did I know I should have adopted Hedonism in my youth.
Is it?, Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, it would be unethical.
bob
vegas baby!
I am against this and would not do it myself. In fact If this was done to me I would not be happy at all. Would probably ban the buyer.
I am just hung up on calling someone unethical.
I probably should not be and will stop responding this way.
I would be fine with calling them an a-hole.
I am beginning to wish I never responded to this post.
This was posed as general question by me to see how collectors felt morally, not to promote or endorse this type of thing. I didn’t expect quite the degree of response. But I think you do make a reasonable distinction between unethical and taking advantage of a longer 30 day seller return window.
Does the CC charge back window apply to in person/show purchases?
If a seller offers a 30 day return policy and then blocks a bidder who uses that policy, the seller seems like the one who's ethics should be questioned. Why would you block someone who used what was offered?? That doesn't make sense.
**It sounds like a used car salesman strategy or gimmick
**
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
Or maybe the buyer became ill with no one to handle their affairs causing a delay. Then health improved but closer to the end of the 30 day return window. There are many other unseen/unplanned for reasons.
Yep. It sucks eBay has a one-size-fits-all approach to Top Rated Plus status. Coins don't need a 30 day return policy. 1 week is plenty.
I just had a guy return a PCGS AU53 Morgan because of a "scratch" on the reverse that he said if he sent to NGC would be Details. When he returned it, the reason selected was Defective. Total BS. I took the return without complaint because I agree the scratch wasn't that evident in the photos, I wish he would have just said he got it and didn't like it or didn't realize the scratch was there. But to say an AU53 coin that PCGS blessed is defective? OK Buddy.
No matter how good the pics provided by the seller are, sometimes a coin bought mail order over the internet looks different in hand. Is it so wrong to get a second opinion on a coin before you commit to keeping the coin? Isn't that the purpose of offering a return period?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I think it's not nice doing what you are saying. Isn't it the same buying a coin with a 30-return privilege and submitting the coin to a third-party grading service looking for an upgrade and if you get it you keep the coin but if you don't return to coin. Just seem right unless you inform the buyer that you are doing that in advance. You are effectively removing a coin from a seller's inventory for a period of time that has a high probable chance of having it returned. Not sure if its unethical but clearly not nice or a counter party that I would like to deal with if I was the seller.
I can't imagine anyone doing this considering the high cost of sending it back for reconsideration and the cost of insured shipping both ways. Also, good luck getting all of this done in just 30 days.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Isn't your own opinion good enough? You either like the coin when it arrives or you don't.
My own opinion is good enough. I'm asking for those CAC fan boys that need a second opinion before they buy a coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Yes.
A play on words whether one calls it unethical or whatever. But it certainly isn't the honest thing to do. If I was the seller and found out that the prospective buyer was doing this, we would not be doing business again.
I won’t wade into ethics, but I do consider it abusive and worthy of a seller refusing to do future business with that individual.
There are hundreds or thousands of coins you can buy for $500-1000, and make an educated gamble that they upgrade a point or a + and make $500, 1000 or more. So if you can identify a coin with potential and risk $100-150 on an express submission to make 10x, it's not a bad gamble.
If they used a CC, then yes.
I said he was "assuming"...
Return policies can be abused. They are offered as an incentive and a convenience to give people the chance to return an item they are unhappy with. They aren't designed to give a person the opportunity to profit at no risk.
Think about it. You could make a fortune by buying bullion, hoping it goes up and returning it at the seller's expense if it didn't. That is not the purpose of allowing returns.
During a 14 or 30 day RP, who owns the coin? I'd think the seller is the owner. I won't waste my time spelling out what this all entails except for one. The cgc should have some kind of database that connects up cert #s on slabbed coins with their owners b/c if someone tries to submit a certified coin during a transition and it's learned they don't own it and it does upgrade then the coin by default should be sent back to the owner and not given back to the submitter/buyer. And negotiations can just start all over again, right?
Oh no, have I just given another profitable idea to the cgc's again? Insurance?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection