Is it unethical to submit a coin to CAC first and than return it if fails to the coin company
Walkerlover
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My question is dealing with purchasing a coin say on EBay with a 30 day money back return policy. Would it be unethical to submit it to CAC first and keep it if it stickered but return it if it fails. Disclaimer, I haven’t done it or contemplated it but was curious what others think. Perhaps some people have done this already.
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I can see nothing unethical, nor unfair, nor underhanded, nor devious about that idea. You would be looking for a supporting opinion, but you didn't get it.
What do you think?
If there is a 30 day return period, why would it be wrong to show the coin to someone else to get their opinion?
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I am the one asking the question. So why answer my question with your question
I don't know that it is "unethical", but it is certainly not nice. You didn't buy a CAC guarantee so why do you think you're entitled to one?
Is it unethical to buy bullion and then return it in 29 days of it didn't go up in value?
Would you say the same about returning bullion if it didn't go up in value? How about returning a coin if you couldn't sell it for a profit in 29 days,
It may not be "unethical" but it is certainly "unfair".
Ethical or not, it's a poor way to do business. A great way to be put on the blocked or 'pay no mind' list.
I think it would be unethical unless you asked in advance and were given the OK by the seller.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes.
If the coin received was as described on eBay, then imo you have no reason to return it.
Joe.
If you purchased from seller with understanding the you intend to submit to CAC and return if it does not pass, then ok. As you know, it the seller submits to CAC before listing coin and it receives the sticker, the price would be higher for purchaser.
If the ebay listing mentioned something to the effect of "CAC worthy" or "likely to CAC", I might consider the return option if it failed to sticker.
I once purchased an 1893-CC Morgan on ebay listed as "Nice AU" for $995.
I sent it in for grading and it came back XF Details. I contacted the seller and he agreed to accept the return. I was only out the grading fees.
Tim
Yes I call it Window shopping.
If you like the coin, buy it don't borrow it hoping to improve your decision.
Why would a seller waste time with a buyer like this?
Move along, window shop another place.
Sellers don't like returns for obvious reasons. When the two top grading services were faster you could buy a coin and run it through a grading service and get it back in time to return to satisfy the 30 day rule (PCGS and NGC). You should ask the seller first so you are not accused of buying under false pretenses. If you are buying a coin to flip then you should make the decision within a few days whether or not to return based on the seller's policies. But there are too many flippers and not enough real customers looking to buy for the usual reasons.
Would you go back to the seller and offer to pay them more money if it did sticker?
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You can call it “window shopping”, but that’s not what window shopping is.
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Even though it’s within the rules; I feel that it’s dishonorable.
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Could this all be accomplished within 30 days?
I think if a person bought a coin on ebay and received it, and it was "as described", then he got what he paid for. No reason a seller should be responsible for anything after that. In this situation, yes, unethical.
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It’s not right unless you agree on such a plan with the seller before purchasing.
Unsure of ethical, but the thought of that is deviant and scheming. And to me ; a scheme that includes using another vendor as a means to "play" in the field goes against my standards. But some have no scruples , or consideration for others or their business. So if the glue is that addicting, I'd seek counsel.
I don't think it is 'right'
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Awful, just a nasty thing to do. If it arrives as described then the sale is done, and you take your own chance on CAC.
And the same would go for resubmitting the coin for a higher grade or trying to sell it, but returning it if it failed to sell.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That’s why many sellers have a 14 day return period lol.
I would not want a bad (flake) buyer like that.
I would consider that action to be equally unethical as someone who buys a coin with intent to try to flip it, and then if the coin doesn't sell they return it. You'd be taking advantage of the seller to mitigate your own risk, unless of course you had made arrangements with the seller beforehand and were forthcoming about your intentions. If you want a CAC example, I would recommend that you pony up for one, or roll the dice on your own accord but I think what you're suggesting is wrong.
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What is legal is not necessarily ethical.
However sellers with raw material that price or grade material falsely should suffer the consequences for that.
I've known dealers who say they are the authority so if you send something to a grading service where they grade it and it becomes clear the coin was falsely graded by the seller they don't want to be accountable. If you buy three numismatic items and all three grade under or as having significant problems counter to what the seller was representing it as, then they've violated contract rules which require honest representation.
Would it be unethical for a dealer to sell a coin without first telling the buyer that he had already sent it to CAC and they refused to sticker it?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I agree with that as well, however that is very different than someone on ebay selling a graded coin without any type of misrepresentation.
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IMO, only if the buyer asked about it and the dealer lies. I don't think that sellers should be required to openly advertise that a coin failed CAC, but If questioned I believe they should tell the truth.
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If there is a big upside on the certified coin, chances are it's already been sent to cac. I sold an old holder PCGS coin not long ago where there was easily a 60% value increase if I had sent it to cac, and probably should have. There are probably some coins that could be cherry picked and would get that cac sticker and big upside. However a real collector who just wants the assurance of the coin's value and grade is worth working with.
Consider also all the expense the submitter has to go through. Shipping, cac fees and return shipping.
What does that have to do with the initial question posed in this thread?
I’ll answer, anyway: Not unless the dealer is asked and fails to answer honestly or represents in some way that the coin hasn’t already been tried and/or should sticker.
Still, when I had my own business, I noted in my descriptions when coins had failed to sticker and my clients appreciated it very much.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Personally I think the forced 14 day EBay return policy is too long. I don’t see a need for more than a 7 day return policy. Why are some sellers even offering 30 day return policies as this is inviting trouble from buyers. Do they really think more sales are created to offset potential issues with such a long return policy
My point was that during the interaction between the seller and buyer, honest ethical behavior goes in both directions. If the dealer doesn't have to reveal that the coin was rejected by CAC, why does the buyer have to reveal that he intends to get a second opinion on the coin during the return period?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Couldn’t agree more.
Unethical b/c each entity has its different/own standards. And each entity creates a market. Sure, one can solicit as many opinions they want at their expense, of course. But to use one company's opinion against an other company's opinion for some arbitrary gain is just ludicrous nonsense.
Another side of this is if two descriptive definitions of a grade, ie MS65 from two company's were written out word for word precisely identical......and I think two coins would be needed for such a claim for comparison purposes but than again, it would need to be determined which coin was graded accurately. So now, 10 coins would be needed for a claim, 9 correct with one oddball, then a case could be made, no?
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It’s something I wouldn’t do even though I don’t think it violates any eBay rules. It’s not a nice and honorable way for anyone to conduct business.
30 days is too liberal for purchaser and too harsh for sellers. 2 weeks, 10 business days for returns.
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It's not the seller's responsibility to guarantee CAC approval. Many could care less if a coin stickers or not -- I know that I don't. I buy it for the grade on the holder and don't care if it is an A, B, or C coin. I'm not flipping coins for profit.
I'll tell you guys what I did. I bought a thousand dollar MS coin on ebay recently. Within two weeks, I decided to change direction on my set and go the circulated route instead of mint state. I was well within the seller's time frame to return the coin for a full refund. You know what I did? I sold it for a $200 loss and moved on. The seller shouldn't have been penalized because of my change of mind -- he did his part.
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Its grey enough for me to say YES
For me, I lose powerseller status if I don't offer a 30 day return. That's an extra 5% in seller fees. And eBay takes enough already. It's odd the hoops we sellers have to jump through to sell and how ebay holds us accountable , even for those gaming the venue. eBay has a way of getting us to comply. 5% on $100,000.00 in sales ? Sure take 30 days to decide. I don't like it but that's five dollars on every hundred in sales if I don't accept returns. $5k extra in fees per year just for not accepting returns ? What would you do ? Hurry and get that coin to CAC ?
Why would anyone have a 30 day return policy? If you offer such a policy what does it matter what the buyer does within the time YOU gave them to return the coin. 30 days is 30 days. Does your 30 day return policy state what the buyer may or may not do during the time YOU gave them to make their decision. Nobody needs 30 days to decide if they like a coin. So offering 30 days is ludicrous and you get what you ask for.
Perhaps we disagree, but I feel that the buyer’s behavior would be unethical, while the seller’s wouldn’t.
I believe it’s generally understood between the parties, that an eBay buyer will keep a coin he’s purchased if it’s as represented. On the other hand, there’s no such understanding regarding whether a coin will be kept only if it stickers at CAC, upgrades at a grading company or gets flipped for a profit, etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Aren't the return policy's no questions asked. Are you only allowed to return a coin if it is not as represented? I always thought you could return a coin for whatever reason you want. Again don't offer 30 days with no questions asked and call someone unethical. What they do in the 30 days is their business not yours! No questions asked!
If someone else wants to send all their coins out on approval for a month at a time, that's on them... but having said that, frankly it's dubious whether you'd be able to send something off, get it looked at, returned to you, and then be able to return it to the seller all inside 30 days. I should think it would be very close at a minimum.
We generally don't do returns after 7 days (unless the item is misrepresented- i.e., listed/described wrong item, shipped wrong item, etc.) because of things like this. This is done so we aren't used as a free approval service where buyers can shop it around for a quick flip, see if they can make money on an upgrade or sticker, and then if that doesn't happen, return it expecting a full refund with no consequences, with the seller eating shipping and fees. We take good pictures, provide accurate descriptions, guarantee authenticity and tell all bidders to ask any and all questions far enough before the close of the listing so that we have adequate time to respond. We don't do returns for buyer's remorse. I understand why many sellers say no returns period on slabbed items. The seller didn't grade it; the TPG did...and the TPG itself may offer a grading guarantee but you'll find they don't guarantee that anything will sticker either.
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Okay. I agree. I think if you bought it, it's yours. So long as it is as described, represented, or pictured.
eBay still has a few of us in "compliance", trying to make a buck.
I am not advocating someone doing what the OP asked. But to say that that a person is not ethical to use your ridiculous policy is not fair!
I don’t think the policy is ridiculous. And I don’t take it as a given, that just because a buyer (supposedly) complies with eBay policy, he’s ethical. As just one example, a buyer can return a coin by claiming it’s not as described, but some buyers use that loophole for coins that are described.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not sure about the "ethics" of doing this, but it sure strikes me as a jerky thing to do.