@coastaljerseyguy said:
I think the post would have been better had the OP noted that they manipulated the photo with software and asked if we >could tell and how, so we might know better in such cases. I did not vote since it was a crapshoot telling the difference >between a 66 - 68 via a photo anyway, never mind 1 manipulated. I think we all know a photo can be adjusted to appear >better than what it is. Photos to appear better via just lighting and angles is one thing, and that would be useful learning. >Using software to improve the appearance is of no interest to me.
Agree, the same thing I was thinking. I thought of it this way - if the OP had shown the altered image with a little discussion and then shown the unaltered image with a little discussion, this probably would have led to posters coming in and discussing the alteration and asking questions about it. A thread about image alterations.
As it was/is the thread dragged on for 50 plus posts (into 2nd page) about a GTG and with the OP jumping back in to claim that the pops may or may not be correct. Finally into the second page it was Hey it was a trick altered image. After that very little discussion from posters about the image alteration and mostly about other stuff.
I guess I would say I think many would like to see things, discuss, learn but many don't like to be tricked.
I don't do GTG due to some of what coastal noted but also it is just not my thing I guess (don't get it).
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
This thread reaffirms that hobbyists can best protect their self interest by insisting on seeing a coin (yourself or through a trusted, experienced peer) in hand before you consider purchasing same.
Thank you for the post and lesson @FlyingAl. I enjoyed the different challenge and had guessed MS-68 myself.
Many Negative Nancys don't like this post for some reason.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
@jacrispies said:
Thank you for the post and lesson @FlyingAl. I enjoyed the different challenge and had guessed MS-68 myself.
Many Negative Nancys don't like this post for some reason.
The reason that some posters (not named Nancy😉) don’t like this thread is because they dislike having been tricked.
To those who are in that group - I can understand why you’re disappointed or upset. Still, please consider that the aim of @FlyingAl was to HELP fellow forum members be more aware of the potential dangers of buying coins, based just upon images. Yes, many of you were already aware of that. But there are a lot of buyers who don’t know the extent to which images can mislead, especially if a seller has bad intentions. I was tricked, too, but that doesn’t lessen my trust in and respect for the OP - not even a little bit. I know that his motives were good ones.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@leothelyon said:
May have been cleaned and have circulated. Why are some high points the cheek not showing the grey seen in hair and on eagle, top of digits and stars and might have been given an AU details grade.
Leo
If that coin is cleaned OR circulated, I will swallow an entire roll of pennies one by one.
What kind of pennies we talking? Modern brand new minted ones? Or a roll of old gunky circulated ones? Or a roll of large cents?
@FlyingAl said:
Ok, here is the reveal. There is a major trick to this GTG, and I did it this way to make a major point - editing photos can be INCREDIBLY deceiving. I took the original photos, edited them in Photoshop, and got the GTG images.
The coin is not an MS67, MS67+, MS68, or MS68+. In fact, it’s an MS66. Here are the real closeups and slab shots:
I did this GTG to show you just how easy it is to alter photos in a good editing software - not one of you suspected that the photos could be altered. Perhaps this is because you trust me, but there was a mention of altered photos early on and it seems that idea was dismissed.
We sometimes become far too complacent with coin images and don’t take the time to check and see what may or may not be true, no matter who is posting them. There are not many tells in the altered photos, but if you zoom closely in on the cheek of the coin you will see how the editing software likes to turn the pixels to grey when removing large amounts of marks.
Obviously, one could return this coin when they saw it in hand, but if you bought from a dealer with no returns allowed, you could be screwed on a coin. It’s also a HUGE problem with slabs with no TrueViews (NGC does not have this issue with their newer slabs, as all coins are imaged). It’s easy to remove a few small marks and give the coin a “point bump” or, in this case, two and a half. Ultimately, if this thread does nothing but make you take a slightly closer look at that non-TV slab or raw coin, I think I succeeded in my mission.
The average guess was far and above the true grade of MS66. Personally, I think the correct guess for this GTG was MS68+. I removed every mark within reason, and this coin looks just about as good as the MS69 TrueView for a 1880-S dollar in the altered pics.
The reason I did this as a GTG is so that you would come into this with no preconceived notions of the coin, which is quite possibly how you would approach images of a raw coin. If I had prefaced it with “these are altered images”, then the overall deceptiveness of the images would be lost while everyone looked for tells. Feel free to compare the originals to the altered OP images to see for yourself how good it is. I will also attach two different slab shots - all equally as deceptive, so you can see how those can be altered too.
Please do not reuse or repost the original images anywhere. I will leave this post up for educational purposes, but I do not want to see my altered images anywhere but in this thread.
Not a lawyer, but I would assume that altering the photos is fraud. You're fraudulently inducing someone to buy a coin that they would not have without the alterations.
@anablep said:
Thanks for the lesson here. I was fooled by the alterations but upon further scrutiny, I now see the edits you made to >Liberty's cheek...
Yes, on the close viewing of.
I would have liked to have seen a discussion on this. I tried. My first post was about the FotoForensics website. I even took the time to grab the 2 photos and run them through Foto.. and post the reusults with a little discussion. I didn't spend the time to re-read so couldn't comment more. But it showed how the Foto... was picking up some stuff. That got about zero traction and instead the comments, back and forth's were about other things.
As I noted I don't do GTG but I am also a little familiar with this one, so........
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
@FlyingAl said:
Ok, here is the reveal. There is a major trick to this GTG, and I did it this way to make a major point - editing photos can be INCREDIBLY deceiving. I took the original photos, edited them in Photoshop, and got the GTG images.
The coin is not an MS67, MS67+, MS68, or MS68+. In fact, it’s an MS66. Here are the real closeups and slab shots:
I did this GTG to show you just how easy it is to alter photos in a good editing software - not one of you suspected that the photos could be altered. Perhaps this is because you trust me, but there was a mention of altered photos early on and it seems that idea was dismissed.
We sometimes become far too complacent with coin images and don’t take the time to check and see what may or may not be true, no matter who is posting them. There are not many tells in the altered photos, but if you zoom closely in on the cheek of the coin you will see how the editing software likes to turn the pixels to grey when removing large amounts of marks.
Obviously, one could return this coin when they saw it in hand, but if you bought from a dealer with no returns allowed, you could be screwed on a coin. It’s also a HUGE problem with slabs with no TrueViews (NGC does not have this issue with their newer slabs, as all coins are imaged). It’s easy to remove a few small marks and give the coin a “point bump” or, in this case, two and a half. Ultimately, if this thread does nothing but make you take a slightly closer look at that non-TV slab or raw coin, I think I succeeded in my mission.
The average guess was far and above the true grade of MS66. Personally, I think the correct guess for this GTG was MS68+. I removed every mark within reason, and this coin looks just about as good as the MS69 TrueView for a 1880-S dollar in the altered pics.
The reason I did this as a GTG is so that you would come into this with no preconceived notions of the coin, which is quite possibly how you would approach images of a raw coin. If I had prefaced it with “these are altered images”, then the overall deceptiveness of the images would be lost while everyone looked for tells. Feel free to compare the originals to the altered OP images to see for yourself how good it is. I will also attach two different slab shots - all equally as deceptive, so you can see how those can be altered too.
Please do not reuse or repost the original images anywhere. I will leave this post up for educational purposes, but I do not want to see my altered images anywhere but in this thread.
Not a lawyer, but I would assume that altering the photos is fraud. You're fraudulently inducing someone to buy a coin that they would not have without the alterations.
Yes that's the point. It's to show how easily a coin image can be manipulated and to cause us to have a little more skepticism when looking at coin images. This was not to defraud as there was no fraud involved. It was harmless and no one was harmed in the making of this thread, and definitely no animals were harmed (that I'm aware of) 😂
@Maywood said:
So you've stepped on the slippery slope and now I will hold all of your images suspect. Sad, I don't think you should have done it.
I won't. Maybe in a GTG sometimes but he has never altered images for sale. This should make you wary of all coin imagery in general as it shows how easily even many here who we would consider experts got fooled.
If anything it's a big red warning sign/reminder to buyer beware! I found it useful in identifying areas that don't match the rest of the coin... For instance I noted that there was a lot of little hits on the devices on the reverse but nary a single one on the obverse, and yet I still shook it off instead of listening to my instinct that something was off.
@FlyingAl said:
Ok, here is the reveal. There is a major trick to this GTG, and I did it this way to make a major point - editing photos can be INCREDIBLY deceiving. I took the original photos, edited them in Photoshop, and got the GTG images.
The coin is not an MS67, MS67+, MS68, or MS68+. In fact, it’s an MS66. Here are the real closeups and slab shots:
I did this GTG to show you just how easy it is to alter photos in a good editing software - not one of you suspected that the photos could be altered. Perhaps this is because you trust me, but there was a mention of altered photos early on and it seems that idea was dismissed.
We sometimes become far too complacent with coin images and don’t take the time to check and see what may or may not be true, no matter who is posting them. There are not many tells in the altered photos, but if you zoom closely in on the cheek of the coin you will see how the editing software likes to turn the pixels to grey when removing large amounts of marks.
Obviously, one could return this coin when they saw it in hand, but if you bought from a dealer with no returns allowed, you could be screwed on a coin. It’s also a HUGE problem with slabs with no TrueViews (NGC does not have this issue with their newer slabs, as all coins are imaged). It’s easy to remove a few small marks and give the coin a “point bump” or, in this case, two and a half. Ultimately, if this thread does nothing but make you take a slightly closer look at that non-TV slab or raw coin, I think I succeeded in my mission.
The average guess was far and above the true grade of MS66. Personally, I think the correct guess for this GTG was MS68+. I removed every mark within reason, and this coin looks just about as good as the MS69 TrueView for a 1880-S dollar in the altered pics.
The reason I did this as a GTG is so that you would come into this with no preconceived notions of the coin, which is quite possibly how you would approach images of a raw coin. If I had prefaced it with “these are altered images”, then the overall deceptiveness of the images would be lost while everyone looked for tells. Feel free to compare the originals to the altered OP images to see for yourself how good it is. I will also attach two different slab shots - all equally as deceptive, so you can see how those can be altered too.
Please do not reuse or repost the original images anywhere. I will leave this post up for educational purposes, but I do not want to see my altered images anywhere but in this thread.
Not a lawyer, but I would assume that altering the photos is fraud. You're fraudulently inducing someone to buy a coin that they would not have without the alterations.
Yes that's the point. It's to show how easily a coin image can be manipulated and to cause us to have a little more skepticism when looking at coin images. This was not to defraud as there was no fraud involved. It was harmless and no one was harmed in the making of this thread, and definitely no animals were harmed (that I'm aware of) 😂
If this occurred IRL and was sold, it would be a crime. With some coins, it would be grand larceny, and a ton of other crimes since its over the internet, and federal.
@FlyingAl said:
Ok, here is the reveal. There is a major trick to this GTG, and I did it this way to make a major point - editing photos can be INCREDIBLY deceiving. I took the original photos, edited them in Photoshop, and got the GTG images.
The coin is not an MS67, MS67+, MS68, or MS68+. In fact, it’s an MS66. Here are the real closeups and slab shots:
I did this GTG to show you just how easy it is to alter photos in a good editing software - not one of you suspected that the photos could be altered. Perhaps this is because you trust me, but there was a mention of altered photos early on and it seems that idea was dismissed.
We sometimes become far too complacent with coin images and don’t take the time to check and see what may or may not be true, no matter who is posting them. There are not many tells in the altered photos, but if you zoom closely in on the cheek of the coin you will see how the editing software likes to turn the pixels to grey when removing large amounts of marks.
Obviously, one could return this coin when they saw it in hand, but if you bought from a dealer with no returns allowed, you could be screwed on a coin. It’s also a HUGE problem with slabs with no TrueViews (NGC does not have this issue with their newer slabs, as all coins are imaged). It’s easy to remove a few small marks and give the coin a “point bump” or, in this case, two and a half. Ultimately, if this thread does nothing but make you take a slightly closer look at that non-TV slab or raw coin, I think I succeeded in my mission.
The average guess was far and above the true grade of MS66. Personally, I think the correct guess for this GTG was MS68+. I removed every mark within reason, and this coin looks just about as good as the MS69 TrueView for a 1880-S dollar in the altered pics.
The reason I did this as a GTG is so that you would come into this with no preconceived notions of the coin, which is quite possibly how you would approach images of a raw coin. If I had prefaced it with “these are altered images”, then the overall deceptiveness of the images would be lost while everyone looked for tells. Feel free to compare the originals to the altered OP images to see for yourself how good it is. I will also attach two different slab shots - all equally as deceptive, so you can see how those can be altered too.
Please do not reuse or repost the original images anywhere. I will leave this post up for educational purposes, but I do not want to see my altered images anywhere but in this thread.
Not a lawyer, but I would assume that altering the photos is fraud. You're fraudulently inducing someone to buy a coin that they would not have without the alterations.
Yes that's the point. It's to show how easily a coin image can be manipulated and to cause us to have a little more skepticism when looking at coin images. This was not to defraud as there was no fraud involved. It was harmless and no one was harmed in the making of this thread, and definitely no animals were harmed (that I'm aware of) 😂
If this occurred IRL and was sold, it would be a crime. With some coins, it would be grand larceny, and a ton of other crimes since its over the internet, and federal.
But it wasn't any of that.
If you are saying this to warn anyone off that might come along and read this later that might be thinking about doing such a thing themselves in sales, fine, but what the op did didn't have, nor would it have, any real world repercussions. This was a guess the grade, not a sales post.
@FlyingAl said:
Ok, here is the reveal. There is a major trick to this GTG, and I did it this way to make a major point - editing photos can be INCREDIBLY deceiving. I took the original photos, edited them in Photoshop, and got the GTG images.
The coin is not an MS67, MS67+, MS68, or MS68+. In fact, it’s an MS66. Here are the real closeups and slab shots:
I did this GTG to show you just how easy it is to alter photos in a good editing software - not one of you suspected that the photos could be altered. Perhaps this is because you trust me, but there was a mention of altered photos early on and it seems that idea was dismissed.
We sometimes become far too complacent with coin images and don’t take the time to check and see what may or may not be true, no matter who is posting them. There are not many tells in the altered photos, but if you zoom closely in on the cheek of the coin you will see how the editing software likes to turn the pixels to grey when removing large amounts of marks.
Obviously, one could return this coin when they saw it in hand, but if you bought from a dealer with no returns allowed, you could be screwed on a coin. It’s also a HUGE problem with slabs with no TrueViews (NGC does not have this issue with their newer slabs, as all coins are imaged). It’s easy to remove a few small marks and give the coin a “point bump” or, in this case, two and a half. Ultimately, if this thread does nothing but make you take a slightly closer look at that non-TV slab or raw coin, I think I succeeded in my mission.
The average guess was far and above the true grade of MS66. Personally, I think the correct guess for this GTG was MS68+. I removed every mark within reason, and this coin looks just about as good as the MS69 TrueView for a 1880-S dollar in the altered pics.
The reason I did this as a GTG is so that you would come into this with no preconceived notions of the coin, which is quite possibly how you would approach images of a raw coin. If I had prefaced it with “these are altered images”, then the overall deceptiveness of the images would be lost while everyone looked for tells. Feel free to compare the originals to the altered OP images to see for yourself how good it is. I will also attach two different slab shots - all equally as deceptive, so you can see how those can be altered too.
Please do not reuse or repost the original images anywhere. I will leave this post up for educational purposes, but I do not want to see my altered images anywhere but in this thread.
Not a lawyer, but I would assume that altering the photos is fraud. You're fraudulently inducing someone to buy a coin that they would not have without the alterations.
Yes that's the point. It's to show how easily a coin image can be manipulated and to cause us to have a little more skepticism when looking at coin images. This was not to defraud as there was no fraud involved. It was harmless and no one was harmed in the making of this thread, and definitely no animals were harmed (that I'm aware of) 😂
If this occurred IRL and was sold, it would be a crime. With some coins, it would be grand larceny, and a ton of other crimes since its over the internet, and federal.
But it wasn't any of that.
If you are saying this to warn anyone off that might come along and read this later that might be thinking about doing such a thing themselves in sales, fine, but what the op did didn't have, nor would it have, any real world repercussions. This was a guess the grade, not a sales post.
I am saying that ANYONE who is selling coins, or doing anything other than a harmless GTG post can face criminal charges. The OP is fine, it's mostly a warning to others.
I have changed a few pixels on a coin or two in my time. Not to deceive a buyer but to give the viewer a more accurate vision of the coin. Sometimes a highly detail coin comes with rub spots or mirror spots on the high points where they'll appear black in a photo resembling or giving the impression it's a black carbon spot/area when it is not. An area that's just impossible to photograph. It's easier doing something to the photo than having to give an explanation that will usually cause more skepticism or worry than necessary. But ultimately having to explain anyway once interest was expressed for that coin. Coins that have left the inventory many moons ago.
But this topic has me wondering if we haven't given an education to the more scrupulous kind that may be among us.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@Joe_360 said:
Going with the crowd, MS67+. Very Beautiful coin! Interesting, I just bought a 1891-CC yesterday at the San Jose Coin Expo.
Even though I strive for MS coins like yours is why I always consider and at least look and sometimes spring for AU pieces as many are much more attractive than the lower MS pieces.
Comments
Agree, the same thing I was thinking. I thought of it this way - if the OP had shown the altered image with a little discussion and then shown the unaltered image with a little discussion, this probably would have led to posters coming in and discussing the alteration and asking questions about it. A thread about image alterations.
As it was/is the thread dragged on for 50 plus posts (into 2nd page) about a GTG and with the OP jumping back in to claim that the pops may or may not be correct. Finally into the second page it was Hey it was a trick altered image. After that very little discussion from posters about the image alteration and mostly about other stuff.
I guess I would say I think many would like to see things, discuss, learn but many don't like to be tricked.
I don't do GTG due to some of what coastal noted but also it is just not my thing I guess (don't get it).
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
This thread reaffirms that hobbyists can best protect their self interest by insisting on seeing a coin (yourself or through a trusted, experienced peer) in hand before you consider purchasing same.
Thank you for the post and lesson @FlyingAl. I enjoyed the different challenge and had guessed MS-68 myself.
Many Negative Nancys don't like this post for some reason.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
The reason that some posters (not named Nancy😉) don’t like this thread is because they dislike having been tricked.
To those who are in that group - I can understand why you’re disappointed or upset. Still, please consider that the aim of @FlyingAl was to HELP fellow forum members be more aware of the potential dangers of buying coins, based just upon images. Yes, many of you were already aware of that. But there are a lot of buyers who don’t know the extent to which images can mislead, especially if a seller has bad intentions. I was tricked, too, but that doesn’t lessen my trust in and respect for the OP - not even a little bit. I know that his motives were good ones.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I Photoshopped a fairly nice Morgan of mine.
MS67. IMO the strike on the feathers could be a bit better.
What kind of pennies we talking? Modern brand new minted ones? Or a roll of old gunky circulated ones? Or a roll of large cents?
Not a lawyer, but I would assume that altering the photos is fraud. You're fraudulently inducing someone to buy a coin that they would not have without the alterations.
Thanks for the lesson here. I was fooled by the alterations but upon further scrutiny, I now see the edits you made to Liberty's cheek...
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
.
Yes, on the close viewing of.
I would have liked to have seen a discussion on this. I tried. My first post was about the FotoForensics website. I even took the time to grab the 2 photos and run them through Foto.. and post the reusults with a little discussion. I didn't spend the time to re-read so couldn't comment more. But it showed how the Foto... was picking up some stuff. That got about zero traction and instead the comments, back and forth's were about other things.
As I noted I don't do GTG but I am also a little familiar with this one, so........
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
Yes that's the point. It's to show how easily a coin image can be manipulated and to cause us to have a little more skepticism when looking at coin images. This was not to defraud as there was no fraud involved. It was harmless and no one was harmed in the making of this thread, and definitely no animals were harmed (that I'm aware of) 😂
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
I won't. Maybe in a GTG sometimes but he has never altered images for sale. This should make you wary of all coin imagery in general as it shows how easily even many here who we would consider experts got fooled.
If anything it's a big red warning sign/reminder to buyer beware! I found it useful in identifying areas that don't match the rest of the coin... For instance I noted that there was a lot of little hits on the devices on the reverse but nary a single one on the obverse, and yet I still shook it off instead of listening to my instinct that something was off.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
If this occurred IRL and was sold, it would be a crime. With some coins, it would be grand larceny, and a ton of other crimes since its over the internet, and federal.
But it wasn't any of that.
If you are saying this to warn anyone off that might come along and read this later that might be thinking about doing such a thing themselves in sales, fine, but what the op did didn't have, nor would it have, any real world repercussions. This was a guess the grade, not a sales post.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
I am saying that ANYONE who is selling coins, or doing anything other than a harmless GTG post can face criminal charges. The OP is fine, it's mostly a warning to others.
When something appears too good to be true….somethings up.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I have changed a few pixels on a coin or two in my time. Not to deceive a buyer but to give the viewer a more accurate vision of the coin. Sometimes a highly detail coin comes with rub spots or mirror spots on the high points where they'll appear black in a photo resembling or giving the impression it's a black carbon spot/area when it is not. An area that's just impossible to photograph. It's easier doing something to the photo than having to give an explanation that will usually cause more skepticism or worry than necessary. But ultimately having to explain anyway once interest was expressed for that coin. Coins that have left the inventory many moons ago.
But this topic has me wondering if we haven't given an education to the more scrupulous kind that may be among us.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Even though I strive for MS coins like yours is why I always consider and at least look and sometimes spring for AU pieces as many are much more attractive than the lower MS pieces.