How does a coin get this many devices faded or missing?

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hawkowl
hawkowl Posts: 30 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

I found this one in a coin roll. There are a lot of devices faded or missing altogether. It doesn't look like someone went at this with a sander or buffer, but what could cause such conditions - grease strike thorough? worn dies? Odd that this is on both sides of the coin.

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  • Mr_Spud
    Mr_Spud Posts: 7,272 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 27, 2023 4:44PM
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    I’m guessing the grease fell into the empty dies after the planchet was ejected and before the next planchet got placed between the dies and that may be how it affected both sides

    Mr_Spud

  • seatedlib3991
    seatedlib3991 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I have no idea but that is impressive. James

  • Greenstang
    Greenstang Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It is a Grease Filled Die. Unusual to see it on both sides though.

  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,758 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 27, 2023 6:03PM
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    Could it be a die set-up coin? It looks like an extremely weak strike from when new dies are installed in the coin press and a few coins are struck so the die spacing (and die pressure) can adjusted.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • MWallace
    MWallace Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @PerryHall said:
    Looks like an extremely weak strike from when new dies are installed in the coin press and a few coins are struck so the die spacing (and die pressure) can adjusted.

    If it was a die adjustment strike, the rims wouldn't be full.

  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,758 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @MWallace said:

    @PerryHall said:
    Looks like an extremely weak strike from when new dies are installed in the coin press and a few coins are struck so the die spacing (and die pressure) can adjusted.

    If it was a die adjustment strike, the rims wouldn't be full.

    Aren't the rims already mostly formed when the planchet is run through the upsetting machine?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • MWallace
    MWallace Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @PerryHall said:

    @MWallace said:

    @PerryHall said:
    Looks like an extremely weak strike from when new dies are installed in the coin press and a few coins are struck so the die spacing (and die pressure) can adjusted.

    If it was a die adjustment strike, the rims wouldn't be full.

    Aren't the rims already mostly formed when the planchet is run through the upsetting machine?

    They are slightly raised, but not fully formed as on this coin.

  • MarkKelley
    MarkKelley Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Grease strike, and a nice one!

  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Really interesting coin.... I lean toward grease strike, though unusual to be both sides like that. @hawkowl ... Was this a roll find?? Cheers, RickO

  • hawkowl
    hawkowl Posts: 30 ✭✭✭
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    Thanks all for the comments. I wondered about a grease strike, but I have never seen it so pervasive on both sides of a coin.

    And yes, @ricko, this was a coin roll find, and a surprising one at that!

  • Project Numismatics
    Project Numismatics Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    This looks like severe PMD to me, but hopefully one of the error guys will chime in soon.

  • LukeMarshall
    LukeMarshall Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm seeing struck though grease. As a Louisiana native, I like it! Nice Find!

    It's all about what the people want...

  • BuffaloIronTail
    BuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Two articles about adjustment strikes.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,758 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Thanks @BuffaloIronTail . It doesn't make sense that BOTH dies would have prodigious amounts of grease on them. I still say it looks like an die adjustment strike as depicted in the above references.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,758 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @CaptHenway and @MarkFeld were both professional graders. I'd like to hear their opinions. Also, @FredWeinberg is an expert on the minting process and I would appreciate his thoughts on this coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • FredWeinberg
    FredWeinberg Posts: 6,040 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    As stated, it’s a “struck through grease“ – both obv. & rev dies

    I use the term “grease“ although it’s machinery oil/lubricant of different types that are used in the process

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @PerryHall said:
    Thanks @BuffaloIronTail . It doesn't make sense that BOTH dies would have prodigious amounts of grease on them. I still say it looks like an die adjustment strike as depicted in the above references.

    Hypothetically, if you ran a vertical striking press all day and the press was nice and warm and then you shut it off for the night or weekend, AND the press was leaking a bit of grease that was running down the side of the hammer die and then around the rim to the face of the die, AND the grease built up on the face of the hammer die so much so that some of it dripped down onto the anvil die, when you turned the press back on and started striking coins the pressure of the striking would redistribute the grease in interesting patterns.

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • MWallace
    MWallace Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @PerryHall said:
    Thanks @BuffaloIronTail . It doesn't make sense that BOTH dies would have prodigious amounts of grease on them. I still say it looks like an die adjustment strike as depicted in the above references.

    Another way to tell a Filled Die vs. a Die Adjustment is by the reeded edge. The reeding will be fully struck on a Filled Die and lightly struck or nonexistent on a Die Adjustment.

    Here is a filled die in my collection. I also have several Die Adjustment pieces but don't have photos readily at hand.

  • hawkowl
    hawkowl Posts: 30 ✭✭✭
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    @MWallace said:
    "Another way to tell a Filled Die vs. a Die Adjustment is by the reeded edge. The reeding will be fully struck on a Filled Die and lightly struck or nonexistent on a Die Adjustment."

    Thanks again all for the great detailed discussion. The edge is fully reeded, so I guess that lends more weight to the Filled Die/"grease" hypothesis.

    Is something like this worth the cost of getting attributed?

  • 1946Hamm
    1946Hamm Posts: 827 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    grease filled die for sure. Here is a SBA I found in a roll of new dollars way back when. Also a grease filled die on both sides.

    Have a good day, Gary
  • leothelyon
    leothelyon Posts: 8,568 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I have some odds and ends like this w/Jeff nickels but haven't photographed them. Usually labeled as "unusually weak dies" strike.

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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