What is the population of the 2007-P Washington Dollar Elongated Ray variety?

CaptHenway · March 24, 2023 2:12PM

Am just curious to see how well this has caught on since it was recognized as a variety. Anybody have one besides Oakstar?

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13459486#Comment_13459486

ricko · March 25, 2023 6:06AM

@CaptHenway.... No luck so far, been looking for one... even specifically asked for a bunch of dollar coins... Will keep searching. Cheers, RickO

OAKSTAR · March 27, 2023 6:00AM

As of today (if I'm reading it correctly) the TPG'er pop reports show the following:

ANACS: 5
PCGS: 2
NGC: 5
ICG: 1
VSS: 2. (I think)

MWallace · March 28, 2023 4:52AM

I have two of them that came from @OAKSTAR . They are part of the NGC pop above.

OAKSTAR · August 22, 2023 8:16PM

UPDATE:

ANACS: 6

JWP · August 23, 2023 8:12AM

@OAKTREE Is with just the P or on both the P & D?

OAKSTAR · August 23, 2023 8:20AM

@JWP said:
@OAKTREE Is with just the P or on both the P & D?

Just the P's @JWP, as of today anyway.

However, both the A and B positions...which is apparently a completely random number. I guess how the coins fell or were fed into the strike chamber... If those are the correct words.

CaptHenway · August 23, 2023 3:38PM

@OAKSTAR said:

@JWP said:
@OAKTREE Is with just the P or on both the P & D?

Just the P's @JWP, as of today anyway.

However, both the A and B positions...which is apparently a completely random number. I guess how the coins fell or were fed into the strike chamber... If those are the correct words.

Actually, the edge lettering was applied after the strike. I had a floor tour of the Philly Mint back in 2008 and the way the dollar production line works is that struck dollars fall into a catch basin on the press so that should a die shatter the recent production is still segregated. The press operator looks at a batch and if they seem OK they are dumped into a swinging metal tray on a conveyor belt continuously running past the production line. At the end of the production line the conveyor belt goes straight up and then horizontal again over a walkway where it eventually feeds into dumping the coins into a feed bin on a different machine that lines the coins up, at random, and runs them through a raised letter embossing tool that sinks the edge inscription into each coin. From there they go straight into ballistic bags that get sealed up when they are approximately 4,000 pounds. THe ballistic bags are then shipped to licensed coin depots for rolling and distribution.

JWP · August 23, 2023 4:36PM

@CaptHenway Wow - very interesting recall of the small $ mint line. Just how did you remember all these small details? Thanks, a real great read.

OAKSTAR · August 23, 2023 4:45PM

@JWP said:
@CaptHenway Wow - very interesting recall of the small $ mint line. Just how did you remember all these small details? Thanks, a real great read.

And that's why @CaptHenway is the go-to guy! 👍🏻 👍🏻

messydesk · August 23, 2023 7:22PM

There are also two that I've put a "WUFO-001" label on last August that were raw. I don't know if they still are. I haven't labeled any graded coins.

OAKSTAR · August 23, 2023 8:31PM

@messydesk said:
There are also two that I've put a "WUFO-001" label on last August that were raw. I don't know if they still are. I haven't labeled any graded coins.

John- I was always a bit confused by John Wexler's unidentified (UFO) designator. But I give him credit for recognizing something was amiss with the coin.

Prior to Feb 15, 20122, I can tell you for a fact that this coin past through the hands and was examined by several well known attributers, names you would easily recognize. I guess for whatever reason at the time, the skill level, knowledge or willingness to put their reputations on the line just wasn't there. Until one man did step up.

Question: Do you have an on-line census or pop report on all the coins you have holdered? Thanks!

OAKSTAR · August 23, 2023 9:18PM

@OAKSTAR said:
UPDATE:

ANACS: 6

So the ANACS population went up by one. This is the coin. The highest graded I've seen. I'd love to track the guy down who has this coin. Not to buy it, just to talk to him about it. Where did he get it? Where did he find it? Is he the one who submitted it? Did he buy it from someone? Did he sell it to someone? etc..etc..

messydesk · August 23, 2023 9:55PM

@OAKSTAR said:

@messydesk said:
There are also two that I've put a "WUFO-001" label on last August that were raw. I don't know if they still are. I haven't labeled any graded coins.

John- I was always a bit confused by John Wexler's unidentified (UFO) designator. But I give him credit for recognizing something was amiss with the coin.

Prior to Feb 15, 20122, I can tell you for a fact that this coin past through the hands and was examined by several well known attributers, names you would easily recognize. I guess for whatever reason at the time, the skill level, knowledge or willingness to put their reputations on the line just wasn't there. Until one man did step up.

Question: Do you have an on-line census or pop report on all the coins you have holdered? Thanks!

I don't have that, unfortunately. No time to set up something like that. I'll be labeling coin number 25000 this week. Number 24000 was back in March. My census reports will have a lot of sampling bias in them, as I don't always get random submissions. If you're interested in pops for a few varieties, I can look those up in my database and let you know. I don't have grades included, though.

OAKSTAR · August 24, 2023 7:08AM

Not a problem John. Thanks for that feedback! 👍🏻

OAKSTAR · October 16, 2024 8:40PM

UPDATE: If you haven't already seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNsCkyPIgo0

OAKSTAR · October 16, 2024 8:43PM

Bodin · October 16, 2024 10:55PM

What is that second letter??

OAKSTAR · October 17, 2024 5:20AM

@Bodin said:

What is that second letter??

W

messydesk · October 17, 2024 6:40AM

@Bodin said:

What is that second letter??

Snarky answer:
A "triple-u".

Real answer:
It's supposed to say "2007-P GW WUFO-1". Unfortunately, there isn't enough space for all that on my label. It's an inherent problem when lengthy varieties collide with lengthy date descriptors. I could fix this by reprinting labels using a different layout with a smaller font for this information for the few coins with this problem. Had it been on a John Adams (JA) dollar or were Wexler's last name Jones, this wouldn't have happened. I think an FS number would also fit, but barely.

lsica · April 15, 2025 5:35PM

How rare is this variety? TPG pops are all <10 pieces each and I don't see any sales for this from a quick internet search (eBay/HA). I'd think recent ~$800 sales wouldve broken some of these loose from a bunch of treasure hunters tearing rolls apart. But it seems all we get are crickets. Are we possibly talking Cheerios-level scarcity?

messydesk · April 15, 2025 8:41PM

@lsica said:
How rare is this variety? TPG pops are all <10 pieces each and I don't see any sales for this from a quick internet search (eBay/HA). I'd think recent ~$800 sales wouldve broken some of these loose from a bunch of treasure hunters tearing rolls apart. But it seems all we get are crickets. Are we possibly talking Cheerios-level scarcity?

One die pair, but probably less than a full run from it, given the die was altered. It just got added to the CPG, so it's been under the radar for a while.

lsica · April 16, 2025 5:56AM

@messydesk said:

@lsica said:
How rare is this variety?

...

One die pair, but probably less than a full run from it, given the die was altered. It just got added to the CPG, so it's been under the radar for a while.

Was this a die or a hub change? Also how long does a "Golden" dollar die last until it's replaced? Thanks

messydesk · April 16, 2025 7:09AM

@lsica said:

@messydesk said:

@lsica said:
How rare is this variety?

...

One die pair, but probably less than a full run from it, given the die was altered. It just got added to the CPG, so it's been under the radar for a while.

Was this a die or a hub change? Also how long does a "Golden" dollar die last until it's replaced? Thanks

Consensus is that it was a manually altered die. As for how many strikes from typical die, I'm going to guess 300,000, but that's a wet finger estimate. That info isn't in the Mint's annual report. Perhaps it's elsewhere.

MrScience · April 16, 2025 8:51AM

Does anyone know what locale(s) these varieties have been found in the wild? Or direct from the Mint?

OAKSTAR · April 16, 2025 4:41PM

@messydesk said:

@lsica said:
How rare is this variety? TPG pops are all <10 pieces each and I don't see any sales for this from a quick internet search (eBay/HA). I'd think recent ~$800 sales wouldve broken some of these loose from a bunch of treasure hunters tearing rolls apart. But it seems all we get are crickets. Are we possibly talking Cheerios-level scarcity?

One die pair, but probably less than a full run from it, given the die was altered. It just got added to the CPG, so it's been under the radar for a while.

John- What edition and volume would that be?

messydesk · April 16, 2025 8:16PM

@OAKSTAR said:

@messydesk said:

@lsica said:
How rare is this variety? TPG pops are all <10 pieces each and I don't see any sales for this from a quick internet search (eBay/HA). I'd think recent ~$800 sales wouldve broken some of these loose from a bunch of treasure hunters tearing rolls apart. But it seems all we get are crickets. Are we possibly talking Cheerios-level scarcity?

One die pair, but probably less than a full run from it, given the die was altered. It just got added to the CPG, so it's been under the radar for a while.

John- What edition and volume would that be?

The next one. It has an FS number (FS-901) and has been listed greysheet.com. @JohnF is using the Greysheet to hot-foot newly granted FS numbers into the marketplace so that collectors don't have to wait years so their heirs can see them in the right volume of the CPG guide.

OAKSTAR · April 17, 2025 12:34PM

@messydesk said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@messydesk said:

@lsica said:
How rare is this variety? TPG pops are all <10 pieces each and I don't see any sales for this from a quick internet search (eBay/HA). I'd think recent ~$800 sales wouldve broken some of these loose from a bunch of treasure hunters tearing rolls apart. But it seems all we get are crickets. Are we possibly talking Cheerios-level scarcity?

One die pair, but probably less than a full run from it, given the die was altered. It just got added to the CPG, so it's been under the radar for a while.

John- What edition and volume would that be?

The next one. It has an FS number (FS-901) and has been listed greysheet.com. @JohnF is using the Greysheet to hot-foot newly granted FS numbers into the marketplace so that collectors don't have to wait years so their heirs can see them in the right volume of the CPG guide.

You sure are right about the years and the "next" one! Not getting the warm and fuzzies from John or Jeff about the CPG or Redbook but your point is well taken. This coin was scheduled and agreed upon between Bill and Dennis @Dentuck, to be included in the current issue of the CPG. Bill assigned (FS-C1-2007P-GW-901) to this coin. There was even discussions of featuring it on the front cover. For whatever reason, it was overlooked or fell through the cracks.

Besides being the only known variety in the Presidential series, this coin has been researched and documented much more then some varieties currently listed. The coin has been slabbed by ANACS, SEGS, NGC, ICG, CAC, PCGS and as you know VSS.

With that being said, I know John and Jeff's plates are full picking and choosing coins and space for publication.

messydesk · April 17, 2025 5:40PM

@OAKSTAR said:

@messydesk said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@messydesk said:

@lsica said:
How rare is this variety? TPG pops are all <10 pieces each and I don't see any sales for this from a quick internet search (eBay/HA). I'd think recent ~$800 sales wouldve broken some of these loose from a bunch of treasure hunters tearing rolls apart. But it seems all we get are crickets. Are we possibly talking Cheerios-level scarcity?

One die pair, but probably less than a full run from it, given the die was altered. It just got added to the CPG, so it's been under the radar for a while.

John- What edition and volume would that be?

The next one. It has an FS number (FS-901) and has been listed greysheet.com. @JohnF is using the Greysheet to hot-foot newly granted FS numbers into the marketplace so that collectors don't have to wait years so their heirs can see them in the right volume of the CPG guide.

You sure are right about the years and the "next" one! Not getting the warm and fuzzies from John or Jeff about the CPG or Redbook but your point is well taken. This coin was scheduled and agreed upon between Bill and Dennis @Dentuck, to be included in the current issue of the CPG. Bill assigned (FS-C1-2007P-GW-901) to this coin. There was even discussions of featuring it on the front cover. For whatever reason, it was overlooked or fell through the cracks.

Besides being the only known variety in the Presidential series, this coin has been researched and documented much more then some varieties currently listed. The coin have been slabbed by ANACS, SEGS, NGC, ICG, CAC, PCGS and as you know VSS.

With that being said, I know John and Jeff's plates are full picking and choosing coins and space for publication.

The process for adding stuff to it is at least 30 years old, I'm guessing. The hobby doesn't move like it did in 1990. Data and expertise are more plentiful and more decentralized. I've spent some time thinking of how a "catalog of important varieties" could be maintained in a crowd-sourced manner, and that includes pricing. Gathering information could largely be replaced with others pushing information. Maybe I'll discuss with @JohnF sometime, perhaps at Central States if he's there.

OAKSTAR · April 18, 2025 7:06AM

@messydesk said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@messydesk said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@messydesk said:

@lsica said:
How rare is this variety? TPG pops are all <10 pieces each and I don't see any sales for this from a quick internet search (eBay/HA). I'd think recent ~$800 sales wouldve broken some of these loose from a bunch of treasure hunters tearing rolls apart. But it seems all we get are crickets. Are we possibly talking Cheerios-level scarcity?

One die pair, but probably less than a full run from it, given the die was altered. It just got added to the CPG, so it's been under the radar for a while.

John- What edition and volume would that be?

The next one. It has an FS number (FS-901) and has been listed greysheet.com. @JohnF is using the Greysheet to hot-foot newly granted FS numbers into the marketplace so that collectors don't have to wait years so their heirs can see them in the right volume of the CPG guide.

You sure are right about the years and the "next" one! Not getting the warm and fuzzies from John or Jeff about the CPG or Redbook but your point is well taken. This coin was scheduled and agreed upon between Bill and Dennis @Dentuck, to be included in the current issue of the CPG. Bill assigned (FS-C1-2007P-GW-901) to this coin. There was even discussions of featuring it on the front cover. For whatever reason, it was overlooked or fell through the cracks.

Besides being the only known variety in the Presidential series, this coin has been researched and documented much more then some varieties currently listed. The coin have been slabbed by ANACS, SEGS, NGC, ICG, CAC, PCGS and as you know VSS.

With that being said, I know John and Jeff's plates are full picking and choosing coins and space for publication.

The process for adding stuff to it is at least 30 years old, I'm guessing. The hobby doesn't move like it did in 1990. Data and expertise are more plentiful and more decentralized. I've spent some time thinking of how a "catalog of important varieties" could be maintained in a crowd-sourced manner, and that includes pricing. Gathering information could largely be replaced with others pushing information. Maybe I'll discuss with @JohnF sometime, perhaps at Central States if he's there.

So you're saying, somewhat similar to an internet search. I database or repository with an algorithm pushing and populating the subject matter/relevant information or "most discussed" to the top?

messydesk · April 18, 2025 7:13AM

@OAKSTAR said:

@messydesk said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@messydesk said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@messydesk said:

@lsica said:
How rare is this variety? TPG pops are all <10 pieces each and I don't see any sales for this from a quick internet search (eBay/HA). I'd think recent ~$800 sales wouldve broken some of these loose from a bunch of treasure hunters tearing rolls apart. But it seems all we get are crickets. Are we possibly talking Cheerios-level scarcity?

One die pair, but probably less than a full run from it, given the die was altered. It just got added to the CPG, so it's been under the radar for a while.

John- What edition and volume would that be?

The next one. It has an FS number (FS-901) and has been listed greysheet.com. @JohnF is using the Greysheet to hot-foot newly granted FS numbers into the marketplace so that collectors don't have to wait years so their heirs can see them in the right volume of the CPG guide.

You sure are right about the years and the "next" one! Not getting the warm and fuzzies from John or Jeff about the CPG or Redbook but your point is well taken. This coin was scheduled and agreed upon between Bill and Dennis @Dentuck, to be included in the current issue of the CPG. Bill assigned (FS-C1-2007P-GW-901) to this coin. There was even discussions of featuring it on the front cover. For whatever reason, it was overlooked or fell through the cracks.

Besides being the only known variety in the Presidential series, this coin has been researched and documented much more then some varieties currently listed. The coin have been slabbed by ANACS, SEGS, NGC, ICG, CAC, PCGS and as you know VSS.

With that being said, I know John and Jeff's plates are full picking and choosing coins and space for publication.

The process for adding stuff to it is at least 30 years old, I'm guessing. The hobby doesn't move like it did in 1990. Data and expertise are more plentiful and more decentralized. I've spent some time thinking of how a "catalog of important varieties" could be maintained in a crowd-sourced manner, and that includes pricing. Gathering information could largely be replaced with others pushing information. Maybe I'll discuss with @JohnF sometime, perhaps at Central States if he's there.

So you're saying, somewhat similar to an internet searches. I database or repository with an algorithm pushing and populating the subject matter/relevant information or "most discussed" to the top?

More or less. Ensuring integrity and sufficient completeness of the data being pushed would be a bit of a challenge.

tyler267 · April 18, 2025 7:28AM

Are these being found in numismatic coins sold by the mint or coins released for circulation? It's been a long time but I know I have some sealed first day covers and maybe some rolls or mini bags, and am wondering if I should open them and look.

Sanitarium_inmate2 · April 18, 2025 3:02PM

I too have a few unopened first day covers and maybe a roll or 2 left over from when I was buying and selling the MEL ones. I remember those old days were fun when those first came out. Me and my coworker had the second one on ebay after someone named Captain Ron put one on there.

tyler267 · April 18, 2025 4:20PM

@Sanitarium_inmate2 said:
I too have a few unopened first day covers and maybe a roll or 2 left over from when I was buying and selling the MEL ones. I remember those old days were fun when those first came out. Me and my coworker had the second one on ebay after someone named Captain Ron put one on there.

Yep those were fun days.

I bought a couple thousand of the Washington first day covers from the mint and sold them on eBay. I got really tired of packing and shipping orders before and after work. I think they peaked at 40 or 50 per cover.

OAKSTAR · April 19, 2025 6:02AM

I'm hoping there isn't going to be to much confusing in discussions here with overlapping acronyms. When I say; CPG I mean Cherrypickers Guide, not "Collector Price Guide"

OAKSTAR · April 19, 2025 11:52AM

@tyler267 said:
Are these being found in numismatic coins sold by the mint or coins released for circulation? It's been a long time but I know I have some sealed first day covers and maybe some rolls or mini bags, and am wondering if I should open them and look.

Mostly in circulation but there were some mint and after market rolls like these.

OAKSTAR · April 21, 2025 6:25AM

As of 21 Apr 25 the TPG'er pop reports show the following:

ANACS: 11
PCGS: 15
NGC: 17
ICG: 2
VSS: 6
SEGS: 6
CAC: 9

OAKSTAR · July 7, 2025 1:21PM

As of 7 July 25 the TPG'er pop reports show the following:

ANACS: 12
PCGS: 15
NGC: 17
ICG: 2
VSS: 6
SEGS: 6
CAC: 9

What is the population of the 2007-P Washington Dollar Elongated Ray variety?

Comments

Leave a Comment