Shield Nickel - Die Polish Lines versus Wrap Damage

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HLT
HLT Posts: 19 ✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Cracked from NGC MS64 holder. Nice flashy coin, I knew it had the lines on the reverse but it was clear to me they were die polish lines. Came back as "wrap damage" on the holder. Something I am missing seeing? Thoughts?

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/46009172

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  • LanceNewmanOCC
    LanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @HLT .... Welcome aboard. I have not encountered that term on a label before. Will wait for further commentary. Cheers, RickO

  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,131 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I haven't heard the term "Wrap Damage" before and to me, the reverse image appears to exhibit die polish.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • lilolme
    lilolme Posts: 2,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    More guess work.
    Looking for something, is this anything near the rim?
    'Wrap' could it be a machine that wraps the ends for rolls?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=OwZlYz2V4AM Sophie Lloyd, guitar shred cover Paranoid (Black Sabbath)

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=fbEW8BrNctI Haley Reinhart, Don't Know How To Love You Live (direct to record)

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • johnny9434
    johnny9434 Posts: 34,049 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @lilolme said:
    More guess work.
    Looking for something, is this anything near the rim?
    'Wrap' could it be a machine that wraps the ends for rolls?

    It could, it's got a 98 details for some reason

  • HLT
    HLT Posts: 19 ✭
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    I will know for sure later today exactly what the slab says, and will update. I was just shocked when it was mentioned to me that the slab said something about "wrap damage". I perhaps should have waited to post until I know for sure. But you know coin collectors get a little excitable about this stuff. Guilty.

  • ChrisH821
    ChrisH821 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I don't see anything that looks like wrap damage, but the characters on the obverse do look funky, like the die was partially filled but only around the edge, where wrapping damage would occur.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • ChrisH821
    ChrisH821 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2022 9:27AM
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    Upon looking at more images, the above looks fairly typical of 1883 shield nickels.
    https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1883-5c-shield/images/3813

    Collector, occasional seller

  • LanceNewmanOCC
    LanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    https://coins.ha.com/itm/buffalo-nickels/1924-s-5c-wrap-machine-damage-pcgs-genuine-vf-details-mintage-1-437-000/a/132103-25175.s

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/standing-liberty-quarters/1924-d-25c-wrap-machine-damage-pcgs-genuine-unc-details-mintage-3-112-000/a/132107-25197.s

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • lilolme
    lilolme Posts: 2,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Well I guessed correctly on the 'wrap' part.
    Here is that area enlarged a little more. I can't tell but it looks different.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=OwZlYz2V4AM Sophie Lloyd, guitar shred cover Paranoid (Black Sabbath)

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=fbEW8BrNctI Haley Reinhart, Don't Know How To Love You Live (direct to record)

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • HLT
    HLT Posts: 19 ✭
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    Looking at the Coinfacts link, I see several coins that have that odd look around the reverse rim. Thinking about a couple of them that are graded 64+. Thank you for the link to that, I never think to look there.

  • Type2
    Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Ya I think are new graders need a up date I just received one as well that said counting machine damage. Oh well it takes time for them to learn. Every one of my coins came back 1 point back from where I tough they will be so now I need to back off all my buys 2 points so Play the game I guess.



    Hoard the keys.
  • Type2
    Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Send it back for review.



    Hoard the keys.
  • HLT
    HLT Posts: 19 ✭
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    @Type2 said:
    Send it back for review.

    Can that be done, as opposed to cracking it and sending it back? I was poking around this morning to see what the options might be.

  • Type2
    Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes just check the box that says reconsiderations and down where it says for incapacitated coins only in red put die scratch’s not wipe scratch’s please regrade, thank you.



    Hoard the keys.
  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @lilolme said:
    More guess work.
    Looking for something, is this anything near the rim?
    'Wrap' could it be a machine that wraps the ends for rolls?

    Could we please see a similar blowup of the area down and to the right of the 5?

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • davewesen
    davewesen Posts: 6,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I have had a couple before. They ended up being circular 'scrapes' mostly on the devices and periphery. The head on photos did not show them well, but coin in hand with an angled rotation showed what is best described as a scrape. This took away the luster in that area. I do not see anything like that on your coin except possibly the WE TR area. Let us know when you get it back.

  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The diagonal lines are clearly die polish. I think they're also a red herring in the context of this discussion.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • lilolme
    lilolme Posts: 2,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @CaptHenway said:

    @lilolme said:
    More guess work.
    Looking for something, is this anything near the rim?
    'Wrap' could it be a machine that wraps the ends for rolls?

    Could we please see a similar blowup of the area down and to the right of the 5?

    Was not sure if messydesk got what you were asking for or if wanted more of the rim. So here it is needed or not now.


    .

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=OwZlYz2V4AM Sophie Lloyd, guitar shred cover Paranoid (Black Sabbath)

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=fbEW8BrNctI Haley Reinhart, Don't Know How To Love You Live (direct to record)

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    That line inside the rim up by TED STA looks like a minor collar clash to me.

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • HLT
    HLT Posts: 19 ✭
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    Wrap Machine Damage. I see what they may be looking at. Will post later when done crying.

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @lilolme said:

    @CaptHenway said:

    @lilolme said:
    More guess work.
    Looking for something, is this anything near the rim?
    'Wrap' could it be a machine that wraps the ends for rolls?

    Could we please see a similar blowup of the area down and to the right of the 5?

    Was not sure if messydesk got what you were asking for or if wanted more of the rim. So here it is needed or not now.


    .

    This is die polish. I see no damage on this coin in these pictures. Send it in for review or whatever they call it.

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • lilolme
    lilolme Posts: 2,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @CaptHenway said:
    That line inside the rim up by TED STA looks like a minor collar clash to me.

    Thanks for that input. Now if I see it again I might remember this.

    @HLT said:
    Wrap Machine Damage. I see what they may be looking at. Will post later when done crying.

    This makes me think there may be some lines that are not visible except at certain angles. Maybe/ maybe not?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=OwZlYz2V4AM Sophie Lloyd, guitar shred cover Paranoid (Black Sabbath)

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=fbEW8BrNctI Haley Reinhart, Don't Know How To Love You Live (direct to record)

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • HLT
    HLT Posts: 19 ✭
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    There are five marks/smudges/disturbances that look similar and quite "concentric" (for lack of a better term) on the reverse. Any single one could be easily dismissed as just another contact mark. You have to rotate the coin to see them, you can't really see all five at once. But once you see them, you know how it is...

    I really thought the issue was the die polish. Pretty sure I see the "issue" now. Of course, in my mind these are simply some very slight marks (if indeed they are related to each other), and far less offensive than other scratches and gouges and such on mint-state coins. But PCGS deems them as "damage", and such is life. Perhaps NGC does not? It may have to go back to NGC.

  • lilolme
    lilolme Posts: 2,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Not that this helps since you mentioned needing to rotate to see them best but here it is enlarged.
    I think I can almost see one more below the bottom red circle inside of but between the stars but then I have a decent imagination sometimes.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=OwZlYz2V4AM Sophie Lloyd, guitar shred cover Paranoid (Black Sabbath)

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=fbEW8BrNctI Haley Reinhart, Don't Know How To Love You Live (direct to record)

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • HLT
    HLT Posts: 19 ✭
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    I think you are right. In hand it just looks so faint compared to that unrelated mark right above it.

  • IkesT
    IkesT Posts: 4,596 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The cert page says "Genuine - UNC Details (98 - Damage)". The type of damage is not specified.

  • Batman23
    Batman23 Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I see the marks but in this photo they do not have that moved metal look like they were made by a counting wheel. And then why are the high points of the stars around the marks untouched? I'm not seeing it as the problem.

  • HLT
    HLT Posts: 19 ✭
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    @IkesT said:
    The cert page says "Genuine - UNC Details (98 - Damage)". The type of damage is not specified.

    It is noted on the slab as Wrap Machine Dmg.

  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @HLT said:
    There are five marks/smudges/disturbances that look similar and quite "concentric" (for lack of a better term) on the reverse. Any single one could be easily dismissed as just another contact mark. You have to rotate the coin to see them, you can't really see all five at once. But once you see them, you know how it is...

    Yup. Can't unsee them now. I imagine they all pop individually when twirling the coin in a light.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • 2windy2fish
    2windy2fish Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Die polish lines….
    No shield nickels we’re ever wrapped, they were all bagged and they were the workhorse of commerce…this is what has become a bit of a frustration for all of us submitting coins these days…
    I do not have the insight to comment if it is unqualified graders or seasoned graders being pressured to “Go Faster” but i can share examples of coins that have been incorrectly graded…
    The message boards reflect this frustration as well..

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I don't see anything I would call damage.

  • Maywood
    Maywood Posts: 4,382 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I was always given to understand that coin wrappers didn't come into wide use until the end of the 19th Century/early 20th Century. A little searching indicates that the earliest patent for a "Coin Wrapping Machine" wasn't until around 1901. I think PCGS hosed you on this but trying to convince them otherwise may just be a waste of time and money.

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin

  • Picker1954
    Picker1954 Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
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    You cracked this in hope of a 65?

  • HLT
    HLT Posts: 19 ✭
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    @Picker1954 said:
    You cracked this in hope of a 65?

    Nope. I just vastly prefer the ways coins look in clear plastic versus the white NGC inserts. To me it is just a nice flashy bright 64 without any ugly toning or a bunch of die cracks. It is purely an aesthetic preference, and I have the disposable income to indulge myself.

    I have done far worse. I have an IHC I should post.

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