1913 type 1 3 1/2 legs in a Heritage auction, question about color and toning

BUFFNIXX · April 28, 2022 4:54PM

Here is a nice 1913 ty1. 3 and one half legger in a current Heritage auction.
I was really taken aback by the beautiful color shown in the trueview pictures
But if you compare the truview pictures with the coin shown in its slab they appear
to be two different coins. How do you get such a colorful true view pic from the coin
shown in the slab. Its a mystery to me. Any comments from anyone

FlyingAl · April 28, 2022 5:09PM

It all comes down to lighting and how the coin really looks. HA pictures (to me) look to be hastily and carelessly taken at times just as an afterthought, more to show the slab than the coin. A lot of auction houses do this because of the sheer volume that they have, they can't take pro photos 24/7 for thousands of coins. I don't use this as a jab at the auction house, and rather think that it is wise they do this. If they didn't, some coins would end up without pictures due to the time involved.

Take for example this 1963 quarter. First pic is a picture taken hastily with a ring light a while ago before I really took the time to take good photos.

It's not a bad picture, but it's not how the coin looks and it's not good by any means. Now this next picture is a picture where I took about 10 minutes to take both sides of the coin correctly and make sure that it looks right with two lamps, where the lamps properly show the coin in full lighting and the detail isn't blown out.

There are similarities, but the second photo is head and heels better. The only thing changed was the type of light source and how much time I took to take the picture. The same thing goes for toning. You need the right light and the right amount of time to capture the coin as it truly appears in hand, a luxury the auction company can't afford.

Hope this helped a little.

Connecticoin · April 28, 2022 5:10PM

Mainly beacuse the Heritage photos are awful.

gumby1234 · April 29, 2022 4:35AM

The coin could look exactly like the slab photos in hand. I have a buff like that and the true view looks like a dark toned coin like the TV above.

LanceNewmanOCC · April 29, 2022 7:33AM

the full slab shots are likely scans.

the TV is a over-exposed example to show the colors, so the reason they look so different is due to the extreme difference in imaging methods.

this happens a lot.

ChrisH821 · April 29, 2022 8:58AM

Either version would be perfectly acceptable to me. I imagine it looks somewhere between the two images.

lilolme · April 29, 2022 10:33AM

Another variable is how is the coin being viewed 'in hand'. I generally use a lamp similar to a table lamp at a show. Incandescent bulb mostly. However, I can change the bulb to an LED or a CFL (generally a little more color here) and the coin changes some. Then the halogen bulb gives another look. There are several other types of lamps and bulbs out there, could diffuse the light and some I have read like sunlight. So the 'in hand' look can change also.

@LanceNewmanOCC
Short and to the point. This.

lilolme · April 29, 2022 11:12AM

So I went looking for a short video (many are long) giving some info on this and with examples (many don't).
Found this one and at 1:40 it has a decent example I think. Can see some lighting and color differences due to the exposure (surf, background). Then can think of how that would change the Buffalo photo.
Note: I am not a photographer.
About 3 min.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSFA9F-QjwE

FlyingAl · April 29, 2022 11:26AM

@lilolme I don’t think I that the exposure triangle has as much effect on the photos as the angle and brightness of the light. Generally, two or three lamps are used at 10 and 2 or (I think, I don’t use this setup) 9-3-6.

A lot of the exposure triangle is cut out of the factor by tripods- it’s not often changed with the exception of shutter speed. I shoot at ISO 100 and F-10 and my shutter speed varies about a few tenths of a second between different metal coins. I don’t need to adjust ISO because I want as much detail as possible and I don’t have to worry about camera shake on a tripod so I can do a quarter second exposure at F-10. The closer the lamp to the coin, the less shutter speed. The color of the coin (copper v. silver) also affects this as well. The most change in shutter speed is influenced by the change in lamp positions in my experience.

Also, the exposure length will generally have no impact on color. You need to have the lights positioned right to get the color in the first place, and then a little bit of overexposure could perhaps make the color pop slightly more. However, it’s not going to do as much as changing your light type or position.

I’ve found that coin photography is 90% lighting and lighting position and 10% everything else (exposure, F stop, shutter speed).

lilolme · April 29, 2022 11:35AM

@FlyingAl
I went looking for the exposure due to the response @LanceNewmanOCC gave (TV is a over-exposed example to show the colors).
I don't know but I did find the video informative to a non-photographer.

FlyingAl · April 29, 2022 11:46AM

@lilolme I do absolutely agree that the video is really informative and is a great example of the main aspects of photography for a beginner and thank you for finding it.

I was more responding that I don’t believe the overexposure of the True View photos contributed to the colors. It may not be overexposed as well but rather just a little over lit to exaggerate said colors. All in all we don’t know because we have no idea how vibrant the colors are in hand unfortunately.

LanceNewmanOCC · April 29, 2022 11:51AM

@lilolme said:
@FlyingAl
I went looking for the exposure due to the response @LanceNewmanOCC gave (TV is a over-exposed example to show the colors).
I don't know but I did find the video informative to a non-photographer.

fwiw, this forum archives contains dozens if not a few hundred threads on topics like this. learning to use the archives is one of the best skills of being a member here. it can be a bit frustrating/time consuming but it will yield dividends and if enough searching is done, will usually yield info on other non-searched topics, so even more dividends. i have this happen all the time when doing just one specific search. the archives are crazy filled with info.

tons of threads with pictures of set-ups of cameras/lights etc along with image results.

post a picture, it is worth 1000 words and probably dozens of threads read.

fwiw, when over-exposed, usually is also diffused but not 100% of the time. bulbs and techinque have a lot do to with the diffusion part.

BuffaloIronTail · April 29, 2022 11:53AM

Nice coin! I like the full slab pic better.

The TV looks too dark for my taste. as I personally like less toning.

Neat rotation too.

Pete

lilolme · April 29, 2022 12:16PM

@FlyingAl
Sorry I understood (I think) what you were saying but I am a master of not being clear with my wording. I do know that lighting has a decent to big influence as even my point and shoot I can move lights around, change bulbs and get a different pic. But as far as the other stuff the camera does it. Well it does let me do a white balance if I want. I still use my 2003 2MP automatic camera. I got it for outdoor/hiking scenery pics which I am told are some of the easiest.

@LanceNewmanOCC
Yes I have used the search feature. It is a little bit frustrating (sometimes a lot more) because of the way it picks up the search word(s) anywhere in thread and in no real order or timeline or usage. So far have not found a good way to 'make it work' better. I do remember seeing some of the photography setups and fairly impressive.

i was attempting to find a simple video on the potential impact of the camera setup (exposure) to maybe help answer the OP question on how the Buffalo could look so different. I do get how the rest of the setup could impact it. Thanks for the info.

Unknown · April 29, 2022 12:28PM

This content has been removed.

CircCam · April 29, 2022 12:44PM

This is especially common with Buffalo nickels, color you can see at an angle often disappears under average lighting conditions or a wide bright exposure such as HA photos. The TV lighting captures those perfect angles.

It’s a solid indication that you have a “bright light” coin that will be fun to tilt under a lamp, and less colorful in average lighting. If color truly pops in Heritage photos, you know you have some really vibrant toning going on.

lilolme · April 29, 2022 1:54PM

@CircCam said:
This is especially common with Buffalo nickels, color you can see at an angle often disappears under average lighting conditions or a wide bright exposure such as HA photos. The TV lighting captures those perfect angles.

It’s a solid indication that you have a “bright light” coin that will be fun to tilt under a lamp, and less colorful in average lighting. If color truly pops in Heritage photos, you know you have some really vibrant toning going on.

This makes sense to me. The HA in holder photos I often find represent somewhat accurately (sometimes plus others minus) what I see when I use a convention table like lamp for viewing at home. Thanks explains it some more.

lilolme · April 30, 2022 6:37PM

@FlyingAl
Hey in this thread it shows a buffalo with less exposure and more exposure (as noted in thread). While the color/toning is minimal it does show what you mentioned. The exposure did not have a large impact on the color.
Once again I am not a photographer. Thanks
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1074943/new-1924-buff#latest

FlyingAl · April 30, 2022 6:47PM

@lilolme said:
@FlyingAl
Hey in this thread it shows a buffalo with less exposure and more exposure (as noted in thread). While the color/toning is minimal it does show what you mentioned. The exposure did not have a large impact on the color.
Once again I am not a photographer. Thanks
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1074943/new-1924-buff#latest

This is a great opportunity to hopefully explain this.

Exposure is just a fancy way to say how much light is let into the camera. The longer the exposure, the more light is let in, and therefore the brighter the picture. This is shown in the difference between the two images. One is brighter while the other is darker due to the different amounts of time used as the shutter speed (this is likely the case but there could be other factors I don't want to explain in depth right now, it'd be a really long explanation).

As such, if the color is not present (not shown by the angle of the lights), it will never show up in the picture no matter how much you crank up your exposure. I can take a vastly overexposed image and I will just get more and more white introduced into the final image rather than more color.

If I am imaging a coin and I want color to really pop, I find it pops more if the image is slightly under-exposed as the color is therefore not blown out by the highlights (white areas of the coin).

So as simple as I can go, color can only be shown in an image if the lighting angle is correct. Other factors can very slightly change that (make them appear very subtly different), but the lighting causes how much color will be there in the final image.

Does this make any sense hopefully?

ricko · May 1, 2022 5:02AM

Another example (and a good one) of how the difference in lighting etc. can make one coin look like a different one.... Cheers, RickO

lilolme · May 1, 2022 6:05AM

@FlyingAl
Yes that makes sense. To be clear I didn't think exposure would create color but was wondering if it could enhance color similar to adding more light. Answer No.

I like the way circam worded it

@CircCam said:
This is especially common with Buffalo nickels, color you can see at an angle often disappears under average lighting conditions or a wide bright exposure such as HA photos. The TV lighting captures those perfect angles.

It’s a solid indication that you have a “bright light” coin that will be fun to tilt under a lamp, and less colorful in average lighting. If color truly pops in Heritage photos, you know you have some really vibrant toning going on.

.
However, sometimes I cannot see the amount of color that a TV shows no matter how I look at it.

Also in another thread that I can't find right now, the poster showed a cent (Lincoln or Indian don't recall) and the TV and their photo and stated that their photo was how it looked in hand. The TV had more red, sort of like this buffalo. Comments were that TV often had more red to them (don't recall if why was discussed). If true, then this could also be part of the difference in the buffalo here.

If interested this explains how toning is seen. It is long and does state that tilting can bring out a color and/or enhance it.

http://www.jhonecash.com/research/toning_physics.asp

BuffaloIronTail · May 1, 2022 1:00PM

This is why it is not a lock and key grading from pictures. All the manipulation can (and does) make a coin look totally different depending on the setup of the camera.

Pete

Broadstruck · May 1, 2022 1:28PM

The TV shows what he looks like all made up for a date night wearing war paint

1913 type 1 3 1/2 legs in a Heritage auction, question about color and toning

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