Can the CAC Sticker DROP the value of an old holder MS60?

airplanenut · December 23, 2021 7:29PM

I saw some MS60 coins in old holders recently and it got me thinking: could a CAC sticker actually lower their value? For the most part, MS60 coins are pretty gnarly—technically uncirculated but somehow still abused. I don’t think it’s ever been a particularly common grade among the TPGs, but it’s all but never seen nowadays.

With the common thought that old holder coins may be undergraded and the scarcity of recently graded MS60 coins, one wouldn’t be hard pressed to think an old MS60 could upgrade. Stickered, there’s a strong opinion saying the coin is definitely a 60 and not an upgrade. While it may be a “nice” 60, that may not be saying much. I’m not in the market for a 60, but I imagine if I were ever considering one it would be because I thought the coin nicer than a 60. If the coin is definitely no better than that, then maybe it’s worth less than a 60 that still has hope to upgrade. A gold sticker would certainly help (thus there is a reason to send in a 60), but green… could it hurt in this one very specific (and I imagine uncommon) case?

Your thoughts?

PS- I know the dangers of starting a CAC thread and I hope this doesn’t turn into an argument about the general merits of CAC—that’s not my goal. I’m using CAC as a proxy for any reliable outside opinion saying a 60 is definitely a 60 and not an upgrade candidate.

gumby1234 · December 23, 2021 7:32PM

Don't they use gold stickers for upgrade candidate coins?

SurfinxHI · December 23, 2021 7:54PM

I personally think that common date morgan and peace dollars, in things like dollies and rattlers, that are MS 60-62 should NEVER go to CAC for several reasons. This could be extended likely to lower grade Walkers and Mercs as well.

1) monetarily, makes little sense.
2) if it doesn't bean, well...you just spent money to find out that it is a B or C coin in low grade.
3) if it does bean, well....no real upgrade possibility, thus kills value, as the "excitement of buying an old holder to possibly get an upgrade" INSTANTLY goes away.

If you do get a GOLD bean, ok, the other 3 aren't really in play. But how much is a gold bean worth on a common coin? More than you spent, likely, but.....just maybe buy a nicer coin/higher grade to begin with???

Surf

U1chicago · December 23, 2021 7:54PM

There might be another place to ask your question...

My answer is that it depends (yeah I know ). You could say that many old holdered coins (regardless of the grade) could do better without a sticker compared to having a green sticker as the bidders will have hopes of an upgrade (just like you mentioned). Then there are other buyers that assume the lack of a sticker means it already went to CAC and failed. So they would either avoid the coin or bid low. I personally don't look at a 60 and think there is potential for an upgrade in most instances. Yes there are some undergraded examples out there but you are just as likely to find market graded AUs or technical Uncs with issues (light wipe, poor luster, too many hits, etc).

U1chicago · December 23, 2021 8:01PM

@SurfinxHI said:
I personally think that common date morgan and peace dollars, in things like dollies and rattlers, that are MS 60-62 should NEVER go to CAC for several reasons. This could be extended likely to lower grade Walkers and Mercs as well.

1) monetarily, makes little sense.
2) if it doesn't bean, well...you just spent money to find out that it is a B or C coin in low grade.
3) if it does bean, well....no real upgrade possibility, thus kills value, as the "excitement of buying an old holder to possibly get an upgrade" INSTANTLY goes away.

If you do get a GOLD bean, ok, the other 3 aren't really in play. But how much is a gold bean worth on a common coin? More than you spent, likely, but.....just maybe buy a nicer coin/higher grade to begin with???

Surf

Those reasons are fair but the possibility of a gold is often worth the cost of trying. The fee is $16 per coin plus however much it costs to ship and insure. The payoff can be $100+ on each successful gold sticker. Take something like a 1938-D Buffalo Nickel in MS 64 or 65. These sell for $30-$50. Add a gold sticker and the recent sales are in the $140-$200 range.

braddick · December 23, 2021 8:02PM

Good question. It's challenging to think of a "high end" MS60 coin (that wouldn't then be an MS61 or higher). I wonder what the criteria are for CAC to sticker an MS60 rather than not- outside of a possible opinion the coin is "damaged" (and thus not even worthy of a straight grade), or the coin exhibits some wear not seen when graded initially.

U1chicago · December 23, 2021 8:07PM

@braddick said:
Good question. It's challenging to think of a "high end" MS60 coin (that wouldn't then be an MS61 or higher). I wonder what the criteria are for CAC to sticker an MS60 rather than not- outside of a possible opinion the coin is "damaged" (and thus not even worthy of a straight grade), or the coin exhibits some wear not seen when graded initially.

If it's a Morgan or Peace Dollar, it would likely have to be close to a 63 to get a gold sticker.

Here is a recent example that sold at GC. From what I see, I wouldn't be against calling the coin a 63.
The final price also suggests it was well worth sending to CAC. It brought $316.11 (with the fee) for a coin that would otherwise sell for $40-$50 with no sticker (and around $70 even in a 63 holder).

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1081848/1923-Peace-Silver-Dollar-PCGS-MS-60-CAC-Gold-Label-OGH-1st-Gen

airplanenut · December 23, 2021 8:23PM

@U1chicago said:

@SurfinxHI said:
I personally think that common date morgan and peace dollars, in things like dollies and rattlers, that are MS 60-62 should NEVER go to CAC for several reasons. This could be extended likely to lower grade Walkers and Mercs as well.

1) monetarily, makes little sense.
2) if it doesn't bean, well...you just spent money to find out that it is a B or C coin in low grade.
3) if it does bean, well....no real upgrade possibility, thus kills value, as the "excitement of buying an old holder to possibly get an upgrade" INSTANTLY goes away.

If you do get a GOLD bean, ok, the other 3 aren't really in play. But how much is a gold bean worth on a common coin? More than you spent, likely, but.....just maybe buy a nicer coin/higher grade to begin with???

Surf

Those reasons are fair but the possibility of a gold is often worth the cost of trying. The fee is $16 per coin plus however much it costs to ship and insure. The payoff can be $100+ on each successful gold sticker. Take something like a 1938-D Buffalo Nickel in MS 64 or 65. These sell for $30-$50. Add a gold sticker and the recent sales are in the $140-$200 range.

But that’s not what’s being discussed here. In higher grades the upside is certainly there (even to say a coin is nice for its grade). But how many coins have a significant jump from 60 to 61 to 62?

Cougar1978 · December 23, 2021 8:28PM

No - it’s value based on current grade on holder. Speculation does not increase grade. New TPG grade after sending in will if that grade higher.

The 23 gold bean dollar don’t c it above 61 or 62. Buyer paid way too much for it imo. Fairly marked / scratched up both obv and reverse. Somebody needs learn how to grade / look at coins.

Never bid above the grade on the holder. Once it comes back from being submitted and if it got a higher grade then you can brag assuming it’s not worth less (with its new grade) than what u paid lol.

If u can’t see the LZ don’t assume it’s going to be a safe landing.

U1chicago · December 23, 2021 8:49PM

@airplanenut said:

@U1chicago said:

@SurfinxHI said:
I personally think that common date morgan and peace dollars, in things like dollies and rattlers, that are MS 60-62 should NEVER go to CAC for several reasons. This could be extended likely to lower grade Walkers and Mercs as well.

1) monetarily, makes little sense.
2) if it doesn't bean, well...you just spent money to find out that it is a B or C coin in low grade.
3) if it does bean, well....no real upgrade possibility, thus kills value, as the "excitement of buying an old holder to possibly get an upgrade" INSTANTLY goes away.

If you do get a GOLD bean, ok, the other 3 aren't really in play. But how much is a gold bean worth on a common coin? More than you spent, likely, but.....just maybe buy a nicer coin/higher grade to begin with???

Surf

Those reasons are fair but the possibility of a gold is often worth the cost of trying. The fee is $16 per coin plus however much it costs to ship and insure. The payoff can be $100+ on each successful gold sticker. Take something like a 1938-D Buffalo Nickel in MS 64 or 65. These sell for $30-$50. Add a gold sticker and the recent sales are in the $140-$200 range.

But that’s not what’s being discussed here. In higher grades the upside is certainly there (even to say a coin is nice for its grade). But how many coins have a significant jump from 60 to 61 to 62?

Didn't I post an example? A common Peace dollar in MS 60 that has no increase from 60-62 (not even in 63 or 64) but with a gold CAC it sold for 8x the going rate. If you strike out or get a green, it is a loss of the $16 plus shipping/insurance but the upside makes it worthwhile for people to send promising MS 60s to CAC.

jayPem · December 23, 2021 8:54PM

I've seen some ms60 bust dollars I would love to have.
CAC might indicate an acceptable level of originality in that case?

Cougar1978 · December 23, 2021 8:54PM

Yes I saw it lol.

In that case the buyer bought the sticker / sticker mania. I would like see him shop it around the bourse at a show with real people in the business and see if he can get the $316 or more. I believe he would get stuffed in the backfield.

jmlanzaf · December 23, 2021 8:58PM

Anyone who buys a coin as an upgrade possibility just based on it being in an old holder deserves to lose money. There are as many, if not more, crappy coins in old holders as good one. The upgrades have been happening for 30 years.

What happened to "buy the coin, not the [old] holder"?

U1chicago · December 23, 2021 9:01PM

@jayPem said:
I've seen some ms60 bust dollars I would love to have.
CAC might indicate an acceptable level of originality in that case?

I'd think it's different on expensive coins. There a lack of a sticker makes people think it failed (I don't agree but others will point out why wouldn't it already be sent given the value).

U1chicago · December 23, 2021 9:08PM

@jmlanzaf said:
Anyone who buys a coin as an upgrade possibility just based on it being in an old holder deserves to lose money. There are as many, if not more, crappy coins in old holders as good one. The upgrades have been happening for 30 years.

What happened to "buy the coin, not the [old] holder"?

That's generally true. Yes you can find upgrades in older holders but you are much more likely to be buying an accurately graded or overgraded coin. It's fine to buy the coin but it's also fine to buy the holder. I appreciate the history and can see the appeal of collecting a set of different old holders. The most important thing is to realize what you are buying and to spend what you can afford (without hoping for an upgrade to bail you out of a purchase you couldn't really afford to lose money on).

daltex · December 23, 2021 9:16PM

@airplanenut said:

With the common thought that old holder coins may be undergraded and the scarcity of recently graded MS60 coins, one wouldn’t be hard pressed to think an old MS60 could upgrade. Stickered, there’s a strong opinion saying the coin is definitely a 60 and not an upgrade. While it may be a “nice” 60, that may not be saying much. I’m not in the market for a 60, but I imagine if I were ever considering one it would be because I thought the coin nicer than a 60. If the coin is definitely no better than that, then maybe it’s worth less than a 60 that still has hope to upgrade. A gold sticker would certainly help (thus there is a reason to send in a 60), but green… could it hurt in this one very specific (and I imagine uncommon) case?

I don't get that. Why would you buy any stickered coin, then? A green sticker doesn't say that the coin won't upgrade. It just means that a fourth party thinks that the coin is solid, not necessarily superior, for the grade. A sticker, or lack of a sticker, has no bearing on what PCGS will say the next time it sees the coin.

airplanenut · December 23, 2021 10:42PM

@U1chicago said:

@airplanenut said:

@U1chicago said:

@SurfinxHI said:
I personally think that common date morgan and peace dollars, in things like dollies and rattlers, that are MS 60-62 should NEVER go to CAC for several reasons. This could be extended likely to lower grade Walkers and Mercs as well.

1) monetarily, makes little sense.
2) if it doesn't bean, well...you just spent money to find out that it is a B or C coin in low grade.
3) if it does bean, well....no real upgrade possibility, thus kills value, as the "excitement of buying an old holder to possibly get an upgrade" INSTANTLY goes away.

If you do get a GOLD bean, ok, the other 3 aren't really in play. But how much is a gold bean worth on a common coin? More than you spent, likely, but.....just maybe buy a nicer coin/higher grade to begin with???

Surf

Those reasons are fair but the possibility of a gold is often worth the cost of trying. The fee is $16 per coin plus however much it costs to ship and insure. The payoff can be $100+ on each successful gold sticker. Take something like a 1938-D Buffalo Nickel in MS 64 or 65. These sell for $30-$50. Add a gold sticker and the recent sales are in the $140-$200 range.

But that’s not what’s being discussed here. In higher grades the upside is certainly there (even to say a coin is nice for its grade). But how many coins have a significant jump from 60 to 61 to 62?

Didn't I post an example? A common Peace dollar in MS 60 that has no increase from 60-62 (not even in 63 or 64) but with a gold CAC it sold for 8x the going rate. If you strike out or get a green, it is a loss of the $16 plus shipping/insurance but the upside makes it worthwhile for people to send promising MS 60s to CAC.

You did, but it, too, isn’t answering my question your first example was mid-Unc Buffalo nickels… not 60s. Your peace dollar shows the potential value of sending a 60 to CAC in the event it gets a gold sticker (something I acknowledged in my initial post). I’m not asking whether there is/could be a good reason to send a coin in, I’m asking whether the green sticker hurts the value of an individual coin.

SurfinxHI · December 23, 2021 10:56PM

@airplanenut said:

@U1chicago said:

@airplanenut said:

@U1chicago said:

@SurfinxHI said:
I personally think that common date morgan and peace dollars, in things like dollies and rattlers, that are MS 60-62 should NEVER go to CAC for several reasons. This could be extended likely to lower grade Walkers and Mercs as well.

1) monetarily, makes little sense.
2) if it doesn't bean, well...you just spent money to find out that it is a B or C coin in low grade.
3) if it does bean, well....no real upgrade possibility, thus kills value, as the "excitement of buying an old holder to possibly get an upgrade" INSTANTLY goes away.

If you do get a GOLD bean, ok, the other 3 aren't really in play. But how much is a gold bean worth on a common coin? More than you spent, likely, but.....just maybe buy a nicer coin/higher grade to begin with???

Surf

Those reasons are fair but the possibility of a gold is often worth the cost of trying. The fee is $16 per coin plus however much it costs to ship and insure. The payoff can be $100+ on each successful gold sticker. Take something like a 1938-D Buffalo Nickel in MS 64 or 65. These sell for $30-$50. Add a gold sticker and the recent sales are in the $140-$200 range.

But that’s not what’s being discussed here. In higher grades the upside is certainly there (even to say a coin is nice for its grade). But how many coins have a significant jump from 60 to 61 to 62?

Didn't I post an example? A common Peace dollar in MS 60 that has no increase from 60-62 (not even in 63 or 64) but with a gold CAC it sold for 8x the going rate. If you strike out or get a green, it is a loss of the $16 plus shipping/insurance but the upside makes it worthwhile for people to send promising MS 60s to CAC.

You did, but it, too, isn’t answering my question your first example was mid-Unc Buffalo nickels… not 60s. Your peace dollar shows the potential value of sending a 60 to CAC in the event it gets a gold sticker (something I acknowledged in my initial post). I’m not asking whether there is/could be a good reason to send a coin in, I’m asking whether the green sticker hurts the value of an individual coin.

And I said, that in my opinion, it does.

MFeld · December 24, 2021 4:13AM

Yes. And you could substitute most any grade for “MS60” in your thread title.

jmlanzaf · December 24, 2021 7:12AM

@U1chicago said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Anyone who buys a coin as an upgrade possibility just based on it being in an old holder deserves to lose money. There are as many, if not more, crappy coins in old holders as good one. The upgrades have been happening for 30 years.

What happened to "buy the coin, not the [old] holder"?

That's generally true. Yes you can find upgrades in older holders but you are much more likely to be buying an accurately graded or overgraded coin. It's fine to buy the coin but it's also fine to buy the holder. I appreciate the history and can see the appeal of collecting a set of different old holders. The most important thing is to realize what you are buying and to spend what you can afford (without hoping for an upgrade to bail you out of a purchase you couldn't really afford to lose money on).

I have no problem with people collecting the holders. But the OPs premise seems to be that CAC affirming the grade decrease the value because people will know the coin wouldn't upgrade. Their eyes should tell them that and a prospective buyer should not be assuming upgrade. [Although people do. ]

U1chicago · December 24, 2021 8:14AM

@airplanenut said:

@U1chicago said:

@airplanenut said:

@U1chicago said:

@SurfinxHI said:
I personally think that common date morgan and peace dollars, in things like dollies and rattlers, that are MS 60-62 should NEVER go to CAC for several reasons. This could be extended likely to lower grade Walkers and Mercs as well.

1) monetarily, makes little sense.
2) if it doesn't bean, well...you just spent money to find out that it is a B or C coin in low grade.
3) if it does bean, well....no real upgrade possibility, thus kills value, as the "excitement of buying an old holder to possibly get an upgrade" INSTANTLY goes away.

If you do get a GOLD bean, ok, the other 3 aren't really in play. But how much is a gold bean worth on a common coin? More than you spent, likely, but.....just maybe buy a nicer coin/higher grade to begin with???

Surf

Those reasons are fair but the possibility of a gold is often worth the cost of trying. The fee is $16 per coin plus however much it costs to ship and insure. The payoff can be $100+ on each successful gold sticker. Take something like a 1938-D Buffalo Nickel in MS 64 or 65. These sell for $30-$50. Add a gold sticker and the recent sales are in the $140-$200 range.

But that’s not what’s being discussed here. In higher grades the upside is certainly there (even to say a coin is nice for its grade). But how many coins have a significant jump from 60 to 61 to 62?

Didn't I post an example? A common Peace dollar in MS 60 that has no increase from 60-62 (not even in 63 or 64) but with a gold CAC it sold for 8x the going rate. If you strike out or get a green, it is a loss of the $16 plus shipping/insurance but the upside makes it worthwhile for people to send promising MS 60s to CAC.

You did, but it, too, isn’t answering my question your first example was mid-Unc Buffalo nickels… not 60s. Your peace dollar shows the potential value of sending a 60 to CAC in the event it gets a gold sticker (something I acknowledged in my initial post). I’m not asking whether there is/could be a good reason to send a coin in, I’m asking whether the green sticker hurts the value of an individual coin.

My first response in the thread answered your question. The next response was about gold stickers since that post mentioned common dated 60-62 coins weren’t worth sending in (which isn’t completely true given the potential prices when a gold is made).

jkrk · December 24, 2021 8:34AM

Timing is everything. I know little about the coin business.

I recently brought 20 DE's to CAC, one of which was an MS 60 in an older holder. The coin stickered and I was out my $20 +.

After reading this thread... I am left wondering whether I should pull the sticker off the slab? I am now embarrassed to offer the coin to anyone lest they should find out I, myself sent the coin in to be stickered.

Now, with the sticker attached should I place the coin in the cull jar?

MFeld · December 24, 2021 9:10AM

@jkrk said:
Timing is everything. I know little about the coin business.

I recently brought 20 DE's to CGC, one of which was an MS 60 in an older holder. The coin stickered and I was out my $20 +.

After reading this thread... I am left wondering whether I should pull the sticker off the slab? I am now embarrassed to offer the coin to anyone lest they should find out I, myself sent the coin in to be stickered.

Now, with the sticker attached should I place the coin in the cull jar?

Yes to the cull jar.😉

PerryHall · December 24, 2021 9:10AM

A MS60 coin with a CAC sticker at least tells the potential buyer that CAC feels it's a true mint state coin rather than a super-slider that somehow made it into a MS slab. In the final analysis it's my opinion of the coin and the seller's ask price that determines if I will buy the coin.

airplanenut · December 24, 2021 11:41AM

@MFeld said:
Yes. And you could substitute most any grade for “MS60” in your thread title.

I'll disagree with you to an extent, though I recognize there's nuance in the wording and this might be my own doing. To make it easy, let's say a coin is worth $500 in one grade (mid-unc, not a 60) and $1000 in the next. The example coin is a nice example. If someone thinks it could upgrade and values it near $1000, a green sticker saying "it isn't likely to upgrade" may drop the perceived value from the "it'll upgrade" value. To that end, you're correct--the green sticker lowered the value of the coin. But at the same time, if that sticker says the coin is nice for the grade, it probably also raised the value from the base price for the grade. My intended point of discussion was to question whether a green sticker on a 60 may have only a negative effect, whereas (as I read it) your contention is that at other grades a green sticker can lessen a premium a coin may demand, but not necessarily drop its value to below that of a coin with no sticker at all.

gtstang · December 24, 2021 12:11PM

I guess if you think it does then I'd imagine if you can prove you are the owner of the specific coin, you could request them to remove it from the database.
Now I'm wondering if any coin has ever been removed from the cac database.

CoinJunkie · December 24, 2021 3:30PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@U1chicago said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Anyone who buys a coin as an upgrade possibility just based on it being in an old holder deserves to lose money. There are as many, if not more, crappy coins in old holders as good one. The upgrades have been happening for 30 years.

What happened to "buy the coin, not the [old] holder"?

That's generally true. Yes you can find upgrades in older holders but you are much more likely to be buying an accurately graded or overgraded coin. It's fine to buy the coin but it's also fine to buy the holder. I appreciate the history and can see the appeal of collecting a set of different old holders. The most important thing is to realize what you are buying and to spend what you can afford (without hoping for an upgrade to bail you out of a purchase you couldn't really afford to lose money on).

I have no problem with people collecting the holders. But the OPs premise seems to be that CAC affirming the grade decrease the value because people will know the coin wouldn't upgrade. Their eyes should tell them that and a prospective buyer should not be assuming upgrade. [Although people do. ]

Good point. There are zero known instances of a coin upgrading after receiving a green sticker.

U1chicago · December 24, 2021 4:35PM

@CoinJunkie said:

@jmlanzaf said:

I have no problem with people collecting the holders. But the OPs premise seems to be that CAC affirming the grade decrease the value because people will know the coin wouldn't upgrade. Their eyes should tell them that and a prospective buyer should not be assuming upgrade. [Although people do. ]

Good point. There are zero known instances of a coin upgrading after receiving a green sticker.

@jmlanzaf wasn't saying there are zero known instances of a coin upgrading after receiving a green (there are such instances); he was saying that the original poster's premise is that a green sticker will decrease the value based on people thinking the coin won't upgrade.

jmlanzaf · December 24, 2021 4:46PM

@U1chicago said:
@CoinJunkie said:

@jmlanzaf said:

I have no problem with people collecting the holders. But the OPs premise seems to be that CAC affirming the grade decrease the value because people will know the coin wouldn't upgrade. Their eyes should tell them that and a prospective buyer should not be assuming upgrade. [Although people do. ]

Good point. There are zero known instances of a coin upgrading after receiving a green sticker.

@jmlanzaf wasn't saying there are zero known instances of a coin upgrading after receiving a green (there are such instances); he was saying that the original poster's premise is that a green sticker will decrease the value based on people thinking the coin won't upgrade.

Yeah. I don't buy the whole premise.

MFeld · December 24, 2021 4:50PM

@airplanenut said:

@MFeld said:
Yes. And you could substitute most any grade for “MS60” in your thread title.

I'll disagree with you to an extent, though I recognize there's nuance in the wording and this might be my own doing. To make it easy, let's say a coin is worth $500 in one grade (mid-unc, not a 60) and $1000 in the next. The example coin is a nice example. If someone thinks it could upgrade and values it near $1000, a green sticker saying "it isn't likely to upgrade" may drop the perceived value from the "it'll upgrade" value. To that end, you're correct--the green sticker lowered the value of the coin. But at the same time, if that sticker says the coin is nice for the grade, it probably also raised the value from the base price for the grade. My intended point of discussion was to question whether a green sticker on a 60 may have only a negative effect, whereas (as I read it) your contention is that at other grades a green sticker can lessen a premium a coin may demand, but not necessarily drop its value to below that of a coin with no sticker at all.

Depending upon the specific coin (as well as price differences between its grade and higher grade ones) a green sticker can help or hurt the value. Since your question was “Can the CAC Sticker DROP the value...”, the answer has to be “yes”. On the other hand, had you’d asked “whether a green sticker on a 60 may have only a negative effect” the answer would have had to be “no”.

Do you still disagree with me to an extent?😉

jmlanzaf · December 24, 2021 5:59PM

@MFeld said:

@airplanenut said:

@MFeld said:
Yes. And you could substitute most any grade for “MS60” in your thread title.

I'll disagree with you to an extent, though I recognize there's nuance in the wording and this might be my own doing. To make it easy, let's say a coin is worth $500 in one grade (mid-unc, not a 60) and $1000 in the next. The example coin is a nice example. If someone thinks it could upgrade and values it near $1000, a green sticker saying "it isn't likely to upgrade" may drop the perceived value from the "it'll upgrade" value. To that end, you're correct--the green sticker lowered the value of the coin. But at the same time, if that sticker says the coin is nice for the grade, it probably also raised the value from the base price for the grade. My intended point of discussion was to question whether a green sticker on a 60 may have only a negative effect, whereas (as I read it) your contention is that at other grades a green sticker can lessen a premium a coin may demand, but not necessarily drop its value to below that of a coin with no sticker at all.

Depending upon the specific coin (as well as price differences between its grade and higher grade ones) a green sticker can help or hurt the value. Since your question was “Can the CAC Sticker DROP the value...”, the answer has to be “yes”. On the other hand, had you’d asked “whether a green sticker on a 60 may have only a negative effect” the answer would have had to be “no”.

Do you still disagree with me to an extent?😉

Hey, it's only "to an extent"... I can't write my name here without someone disagreeing or LOL.

MFeld · December 24, 2021 6:01PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:

@airplanenut said:

@MFeld said:
Yes. And you could substitute most any grade for “MS60” in your thread title.

I'll disagree with you to an extent, though I recognize there's nuance in the wording and this might be my own doing. To make it easy, let's say a coin is worth $500 in one grade (mid-unc, not a 60) and $1000 in the next. The example coin is a nice example. If someone thinks it could upgrade and values it near $1000, a green sticker saying "it isn't likely to upgrade" may drop the perceived value from the "it'll upgrade" value. To that end, you're correct--the green sticker lowered the value of the coin. But at the same time, if that sticker says the coin is nice for the grade, it probably also raised the value from the base price for the grade. My intended point of discussion was to question whether a green sticker on a 60 may have only a negative effect, whereas (as I read it) your contention is that at other grades a green sticker can lessen a premium a coin may demand, but not necessarily drop its value to below that of a coin with no sticker at all.

Depending upon the specific coin (as well as price differences between its grade and higher grade ones) a green sticker can help or hurt the value. Since your question was “Can the CAC Sticker DROP the value...”, the answer has to be “yes”. On the other hand, had you’d asked “whether a green sticker on a 60 may have only a negative effect” the answer would have had to be “no”.

Do you still disagree with me to an extent?😉

Hey, it's only "to an extent"... I can't write my name here without someone disagreeing or LOL.

I disagree.

And by the way, LOL.

😈

ColonelJessup · December 24, 2021 6:58PM

My guess is we 've got about seven years of highly-evolved post-graduate education (in addition to myself) that have less sense about how to spend their time on Christmas Eve than a lapsed Zoroastrian.

Che_Grapes · December 24, 2021 8:27PM

Just more evidence that one can overthink almost anything...

Jzyskowski1 · December 24, 2021 9:24PM

Or perhaps we really enjoy coin collecting and those who we share with on this forum. Family is where I want to spend my time and like any family there’s some I get along with better than others.
Happy holidays and remember “ buy the coin not the holder, unless your a slab collector 😉⛄️

Joey29 · December 25, 2021 5:16AM

@U1chicago said:

@airplanenut said:

@U1chicago said:

@SurfinxHI said:
I personally think that common date morgan and peace dollars, in things like dollies and rattlers, that are MS 60-62 should NEVER go to CAC for several reasons. This could be extended likely to lower grade Walkers and Mercs as well.

1) monetarily, makes little sense.
2) if it doesn't bean, well...you just spent money to find out that it is a B or C coin in low grade.
3) if it does bean, well....no real upgrade possibility, thus kills value, as the "excitement of buying an old holder to possibly get an upgrade" INSTANTLY goes away.

If you do get a GOLD bean, ok, the other 3 aren't really in play. But how much is a gold bean worth on a common coin? More than you spent, likely, but.....just maybe buy a nicer coin/higher grade to begin with???

Surf

Those reasons are fair but the possibility of a gold is often worth the cost of trying. The fee is $16 per coin plus however much it costs to ship and insure. The payoff can be $100+ on each successful gold sticker. Take something like a 1938-D Buffalo Nickel in MS 64 or 65. These sell for $30-$50. Add a gold sticker and the recent sales are in the $140-$200 range.

But that’s not what’s being discussed here. In higher grades the upside is certainly there (even to say a coin is nice for its grade). But how many coins have a significant jump from 60 to 61 to 62?

Didn't I post an example? A common Peace dollar in MS 60 that has no increase from 60-62 (not even in 63 or 64) but with a gold CAC it sold for 8x the going rate. If you strike out or get a green, it is a loss of the $16 plus shipping/insurance but the upside makes it worthwhile for people to send promising MS 60s to CAC.

@U1chicago said:

@airplanenut said:

@U1chicago said:

@SurfinxHI said:
I personally think that common date morgan and peace dollars, in things like dollies and rattlers, that are MS 60-62 should NEVER go to CAC for several reasons. This could be extended likely to lower grade Walkers and Mercs as well.

1) monetarily, makes little sense.
2) if it doesn't bean, well...you just spent money to find out that it is a B or C coin in low grade.
3) if it does bean, well....no real upgrade possibility, thus kills value, as the "excitement of buying an old holder to possibly get an upgrade" INSTANTLY goes away.

If you do get a GOLD bean, ok, the other 3 aren't really in play. But how much is a gold bean worth on a common coin? More than you spent, likely, but.....just maybe buy a nicer coin/higher grade to begin with???

Surf

Those reasons are fair but the possibility of a gold is often worth the cost of trying. The fee is $16 per coin plus however much it costs to ship and insure. The payoff can be $100+ on each successful gold sticker. Take something like a 1938-D Buffalo Nickel in MS 64 or 65. These sell for $30-$50. Add a gold sticker and the recent sales are in the $140-$200 range.

But that’s not what’s being discussed here. In higher grades the upside is certainly there (even to say a coin is nice for its grade). But how many coins have a significant jump from 60 to 61 to 62?

Didn't I post an example? A common Peace dollar in MS 60 that has no increase from 60-62 (not even in 63 or 64) but with a gold CAC it sold for 8x the going rate. If you strike out or get a green, it is a loss of the $16 plus shipping/insurance but the upside makes it worthwhile for people to send promising MS 60s to CAC.

Seems like the coin was secondary to the sticker. He just wanted the gold sticker period.

Joey29 · December 25, 2021 5:18AM

Morgan’s are pretty rare with a gold sticker so someone paid just for the sticker

messydesk · December 25, 2021 6:42AM

Since the old slab game is largely either a quest for upgrades when buying or an expression of the likelihood of upgrades when selling, it's hard to see how an affirmation that the coin is not solid for the next grade up doesn't hurt the value in some way, regardless of the grade, as it throws a wet blanket on said game.

logger7 · December 25, 2021 6:46AM

It's always worth sending the coins in if your objective is not making a pile of money and you are just trying to enjoy the hobby. Heck, I've sent in a lot of low value coins like late date Buff nickels in old holder 65/66s that I'm sure left them scratching their heads.

Tough though to get a sticker on an MS60 unless the reason for the grade was that it was dull, not impaired. Old cleaning is a no go with cac as well as what might be construed as "damage".

Peace_dollar88 · December 25, 2021 8:05AM

Risk is worth the reward. I had an ms60 peace dollar i bought in an old ngc fatty for $50. I submitted and it was blessed with a gold bean and i sold it for $250. I dont know if i would by a ms60 green bean...

Here is another i got lucky with.

Zoins · December 25, 2021 9:37AM

@SurfinxHI said:
2) if it doesn't bean, well...you just spent money to find out that it is a B or C coin in low grade.

Minor clarification. CAC means A or B, so no CAC means C (not B or C).

Zoins · December 25, 2021 9:38AM

@Peace_dollar88 said:
Risk is worth the reward. I had an ms60 peace dollar i bought in an old ngc fatty for $50. I submitted and it was blessed with a gold bean and i sold it for $250. I dont know if i would by a ms60 green bean...

This is what I expect. I think it's generally worth it more than not worth it.

I think there are more people who value the bean than are looking for upgrade candidates.

Green beaned coins have upgraded by a full point or more and then been green beaned again at the higher grade.

lkenefic · December 25, 2021 10:48AM

Interesting question... re: MS60 "...could a CAC sticker actually lower their value?"... Is one keeping it in the holder or playing a variation of the crack-out game? I can see some value in having an old "grading set" for a particular series (or date/MM) and having that coin CAC'd in the holder, and keeping it that way. But think it would be a silly waste of money for most coins trying to eeek out an MS61 or 62... although I suppose there might be some conditional rarities.

U1chicago · December 25, 2021 3:23PM

@Zoins said:

@Peace_dollar88 said:
Risk is worth the reward. I had an ms60 peace dollar i bought in an old ngc fatty for $50. I submitted and it was blessed with a gold bean and i sold it for $250. I dont know if i would by a ms60 green bean...

This is what I expect. I think it's generally worth it more than not worth it.

I think there are more people who value the bean than are looking for upgrade candidates.

Green beaned coins have upgraded by a full point or more and then been green beaned again at the higher grade.

And that was my point with the example from GC. Now we have another from a fellow forum member. If a common MS 60 coin looks nicer than the grade suggests, it’s usually worth sending in.

I’ve also seen green beaned coins upgrade 1-3 points before. So while some might think a green sticker is maxed out in terms of upgrades, that is far from the case.

CopperWire · December 25, 2021 3:36PM

I look at CAC as adding liquidity, not value. That is what my Redbook says on their full page ad.

The other way I see it is a "second opinion" from a doctor. Do what you will with the additional information.

pursuitofliberty · December 25, 2021 4:50PM

Interesting premise, and some good response too ... but disregarding the Gold Bean, which is not what the OP asked ... and which to me is a totally different situation ...

Yes and no. I don't think a Green Bean drops the value, per se on most coins MS60 ... but I also don't think the bean helps it that much either. I think it's almost a neutral thing and the coin has to sell itself (true for all coins, but maybe never more true for the 60 grade).

airplanenut · December 25, 2021 8:43PM

@MFeld said:

@airplanenut said:

@MFeld said:
Yes. And you could substitute most any grade for “MS60” in your thread title.

I'll disagree with you to an extent, though I recognize there's nuance in the wording and this might be my own doing. To make it easy, let's say a coin is worth $500 in one grade (mid-unc, not a 60) and $1000 in the next. The example coin is a nice example. If someone thinks it could upgrade and values it near $1000, a green sticker saying "it isn't likely to upgrade" may drop the perceived value from the "it'll upgrade" value. To that end, you're correct--the green sticker lowered the value of the coin. But at the same time, if that sticker says the coin is nice for the grade, it probably also raised the value from the base price for the grade. My intended point of discussion was to question whether a green sticker on a 60 may have only a negative effect, whereas (as I read it) your contention is that at other grades a green sticker can lessen a premium a coin may demand, but not necessarily drop its value to below that of a coin with no sticker at all.

Depending upon the specific coin (as well as price differences between its grade and higher grade ones) a green sticker can help or hurt the value. Since your question was “Can the CAC Sticker DROP the value...”, the answer has to be “yes”. On the other hand, had you’d asked “whether a green sticker on a 60 may have only a negative effect” the answer would have had to be “no”.

Do you still disagree with me to an extent?😉

Let's just disagree to agree

TonerGuy · December 26, 2021 3:44AM

I have a MS-60 1934-S toned Peace $ in a PCGS Rattler that I am wondering what to do with... there is a significant increase in value even between a 60 and 61...

I dont know if trying to get an upgrade would be better or a bean would be better... IDK

ColonelJessup · December 26, 2021 11:30AM

This is one of the most abstruse and absurd thread topics of recent memory.

I originally thought it was intended to be posted on April 1st.

airplanenut · December 26, 2021 11:46AM

@ColonelJessup said:
This is one of the most abstruse and absurd thread topics of recent memory.

I'm honored

jayPem · December 26, 2021 1:05PM

Here's a rather fancy one.. bean me up Johnny.

Can the CAC Sticker DROP the value of an old holder MS60?

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