PCGS blank planchet sells for $1000! How are these authenticated?

Zoins · December 7, 2021 6:57AM

I like blank planchets a lot, but I've been curious about how they are authenticated, especially when they have a common composition and there's no documented provenance. I've been to some minting facilities and it not only seems easy to create planchets. it's a regular part of their operations.

This certified Mint Error planchet just sold for almost $1,000 last night (over if you include shipping), which got me thinking about this as prices are shooting up.

How is authenticity verified and how easy would it be for a private planchet to be certified? Does the certification indicate this planchet came from a US Mint facility, or just it is within US Mint tolerances regardless of where it originated?

Calling @SullivanNumismatics @FredWeinberg

(1878-1936) Silver Dollar Planchet - PCGS AU55 Mint Error

Cert: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/43419001
Sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175043519050

FredWeinberg · December 7, 2021 7:45AM

That's a silver planchet for Morgans or Peace $1's,
not Ike's.

Authenticity is done by weight, diameter, etc.
They're pretty easy to authenticate, actually.

Zoins · December 7, 2021 7:47AM

@FredWeinberg said:
That's a silver planchet for Morgans or Peace $1's,
not Ike's.

Yes, you're right of course! I even put in the date but forgot about the "Ike" part. Fixed now.

Authenticity is done by weight, diameter, etc.
They're pretty easy to authenticate, actually.

So as long as a planchet meets the physical characteristics, they can be certified?

FredWeinberg · December 7, 2021 7:55AM

That, plus it has to have the right 'look'.

I've seen plenty of silver planchets submitted as 'Silver Eagles',
with the right weight, but they are private silver 'rounds', and
have a completely different look than a genuine ASE planchet.

Same with Pre-35 silver dollar blanks and planchets. And,
many of those came with old 2x23 envelopes stating that
they were found in a bag of 'new standard' dollars, at a
particular bank, etc. Pedigree'd, just like you like 'em !

(and yes, I save those envelopes when possible)

moursund · December 7, 2021 8:12AM

@FredWeinberg said:
...
Same with Pre-35 silver dollar blanks and planchets. And,
many of those came with old 2x23 envelopes stating that
they were found in a bag of 'new standard' dollars, at a
particular bank, etc. Pedigree'd, just like you like 'em !

(and yes, I save those envelopes when possible)

2x23 envelope... Is that a typo, or is that a very long and skinny envelope? 🤔

FredWeinberg · December 7, 2021 8:27AM

LOL - that's a typo!

braddick · December 7, 2021 9:24AM

Why 1878- 1936 and not 1935?

FredWeinberg · December 7, 2021 9:26AM

....another typo

I've put (1878-1935) numerous times;
they get it right 98.5% of the time

Zoins · December 7, 2021 9:38AM

@braddick said:
Why 1878- 1936 and not 1935?

Now that PCGS slabs Dan @dcarr's Peace Dollars, 1936 would include the 1936-D Peace Dollar

Crypto · December 7, 2021 10:20AM

@FredWeinberg said:
That's a silver planchet for Morgans or Peace $1's,
not Ike's.

Authenticity is done by weight, diameter, etc.
They're pretty easy to authenticate, actually.

just to play devils advocate couldn't it be a seated dollar (not trade) from 1840-1873 or even 1836? While the scale of the output of morgans and peace it is very logical, there is a difference between logical and definitive. Did seated dollars have different measurements as they were 412 grains like morgans/peace

CaptHenway · December 7, 2021 10:34AM

Like Fred, I have handled enough off-center silver dollars to know what the upset rims look like on silver dollar planchets.

Russell12 · December 7, 2021 10:48AM

My blanks . . .

FredWeinberg · December 7, 2021 10:57AM

I've never seen an off center Seated Dollar,
so I'm not sure what the rim looks like on it.

olympicsos · December 7, 2021 11:01AM

What makes it an AU55? Why can't it be MS since it has no design on it?

JBK · December 7, 2021 11:32AM

@braddick said:
Why 1878- 1936 and not 1935?

Why not include 1964?

JBK · December 7, 2021 11:33AM

And weren't modern silver dollar commems the same size as the older silver dollars?

FredWeinberg · December 7, 2021 11:39AM

No, they are not.

291fifth · December 7, 2021 11:45AM

I'm guessing that silver dollar blank planchets of that era are a scarce to rare item. How many are known to exist?

CaptHenway · December 7, 2021 11:56AM

@JBK said:

@braddick said:
Why 1878- 1936 and not 1935?

Why not include 1964?

Good question. We don’t know if the 1964-D dollars were quality inspected after striking or not. The rejects from that operation would have been fascinating!

airplanenut · December 7, 2021 11:57AM

@braddick said:
Why 1878- 1936 and not 1935?

Error coin deserves an error label

amwldcoin · December 7, 2021 12:53PM

@Russell12 said:
My blanks . . .

Is it me or is that just so exciting to look at!

giantsfan20 · December 7, 2021 1:26PM

@olympicsos said:
What makes it an AU55? Why can't it be MS since it has no design on it?

My thoughts exactly! How do you grade a blank that has no features and a AU 55 that is dirty and NO Lustet etc.

Maybe @PCGS @PCGS_SocialMedia could explain how it got that grade?

MedalCollector · December 7, 2021 5:49PM

It is a little concerning that a metallurgic analysis is not done, yet the label claims it is 90% silver. That would be key information in authenticating a planchet.

In my opinion, there are just not enough characteristics, individually or in conjunction, to attribute planchets or blanks to a certain series with 100% confidence. I look at it a lot like ancient coins….an authenticator will often say “It’s probably real”, but they seldom claim they are 100% sure. Collectors should approach blank planchets the same way.

moursund · December 7, 2021 5:59PM

@amwldcoin said:

@Russell12 said:
My blanks . . .

Is it me or is that just so exciting to look at!

I was wondering if you need a special camera for shooting blanks...

Zoins · December 7, 2021 6:12PM

Regarding the grade, here's a certified MS64 bow tie webbing to compare to. Unfortunately, there's no TrueView for this one.

Zoins · December 7, 2021 6:25PM

@291fifth said:
I'm guessing that silver dollar blank planchets of that era are a scarce to rare item. How many are known to exist?

This just uses the generic E11111 coin number, but I'd argue that at least planchets should get their own coin numbers and population reports.

I think that's not necessary for webbing as each one may be cut differently.

moursund · December 7, 2021 6:39PM

@Zoins said:
Regarding the grade, here's a certified MS64 bow tie webbing to compare to. Unfortunately, there's no TrueView for this one.

Well, show the reverse also! Don't keep us in suspense... 😉

jdimmick · December 7, 2021 9:18PM

Im not an error expert by far, but I know exactly what Fred is refering too. 40% ike planchets are easy to differentiate, but specs for the commems and older silver dollars supposed to be the same, but there is something about them that makes them different to the look and feel. I had one come in several years ago, and I just knew it was a blank commem 90% planchet. Then a year or so ago, i had an old blank silver dollar planchet come thru from an estate, knew it was the real deal, and submitted it, and it came back notated as the earlier style blank for morgan /peace. I sold it for about 900 if I recall.

CaptHenway · December 7, 2021 11:25PM

I would not try to grade it from a picture, but I feel very confident that if I had it in hand I could grade it.

Zoins · December 7, 2021 11:54PM

@moursund said:

@Zoins said:
Regarding the grade, here's a certified MS64 bow tie webbing to compare to. Unfortunately, there's no TrueView for this one.

Well, show the reverse also! Don't keep us in suspense... 😉

Here you go

Metal · December 8, 2021 5:30AM

@Zoins said:

@braddick said:
Why 1878- 1936 and not 1935?

Now that PCGS slabs Dan @dcarr's Peace Dollars, 1936 would include the 1936-D Peace Dollar

Wait, what? All of them? I have 4 or 5 (or 6). Will they cross the ANACS holders most of them are in? God, I hate those holders...

Broadstruck · December 8, 2021 7:01AM

Might have sold for that amount due to the 1936 slab label error?

ricko · December 9, 2021 8:38AM

@Russell12... That is a great set of blank planchets. First full set I have seen. What type of dollar was the blank intended to be? Cheers, RickO

Doubledieanotherday · December 9, 2021 4:00PM

Couldn’t picture myself looking through a loupe at this and feeling anything. Blanks are just that, blanks. The purchaser must have too much money to spend

moursund · December 9, 2021 5:55PM

@Doubledieanotherday said:
Couldn’t picture myself looking through a loupe at this and feeling anything. Blanks are just that, blanks. The purchaser must have too much money to spend

I suggested to my wife that I might buy a blank planchet for hundreds of dollars. I reconsidered after she gave me one of those 'blank stares'...

Zoins · December 10, 2021 5:44AM

@Metal said:

@Zoins said:

@braddick said:
Why 1878- 1936 and not 1935?

Now that PCGS slabs Dan @dcarr's Peace Dollars, 1936 would include the 1936-D Peace Dollar

Wait, what? All of them? I have 4 or 5 (or 6). Will they cross the ANACS holders most of them are in?

See this thread. I don't think PCGS normally crosses ANACS, but you should ask.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1057239/my-daniel-carr-1964-d-peace-dollars-have-been-graded-by-pcgs

keets · December 10, 2021 5:56AM

to my way of thinking it's sort of wrong to call a blank planchet an error, it's just a blank planchet. aside from that, what is the error part of it??

Zoins · December 10, 2021 5:58AM

@keets said:
to my way of thinking it's sort of wrong to call a blank planchet an error, it's just a blank planchet. aside from that, what is the error part of it??

I agree Al. They aren’t errors. They are a normal part of the process and just haven’t been struck yet. These should have regular PCGS coin numbers and pop report figures per type.

My guess on why they are classified as errors is that @FredWeinberg authenticated them by comparing with upset rims on off center errors, and he was the PCGS mint error consultant. Perhaps Fred can provide more info?

SullivanNumismatics · December 10, 2021 6:06AM

@keets said:
to my way of thinking it's sort of wrong to call a blank planchet an error, it's just a blank planchet. aside from that, what is the error part of it??

Although they are a normal part of the minting process, the release of "unstruck" planchets or blanks is not "normal", and is an "error" in the sense that the "coin" is not as it should be. It's a less than perfect "coin issue" from the mints.

SullivanNumismatics · December 10, 2021 6:08AM

For silver dollar planchets, they typically run around $1,000 for one (and have for over a decade in fact!) The 1840-1935 era of silver dollar planchets are very scarce, and far more valuable than the modern silver commemorative dollar planchets (that are more proof-like in appearance and typically run in the $100-$150 price range.)

braddick · December 10, 2021 8:09AM

I suppose it is an "error" the Mint released the blank planchet into commerce. I agree though- calling it an error on the insert is a bit odd.

moursund · December 10, 2021 8:19AM

@braddick said:
I suppose it is an "error" the Mint released the blank planchet into commerce. I agree though- calling it an error on the insert is a bit odd.

It's an error similar to an empty packet of crisps... Or maybe even more similar to a packet of crisps that contains a whole potato... 🤔

Zoins · December 10, 2021 8:29AM

@braddick said:
I suppose it is an "error" the Mint released the blank planchet into commerce. I agree though- calling it an error on the insert is a bit odd.

If it’s an error because it was released then should the 1933 DE and 1974-D Aluminum Cent that PCGS certified be errors too?

moursund · December 10, 2021 8:45AM

@Zoins said:

@braddick said:
I suppose it is an "error" the Mint released the blank planchet into commerce. I agree though- calling it an error on the insert is a bit odd.

If it’s an error because it was released then should the 1933 DE and 1974-D Aluminum Cent that PCGS certified should be errors too?

If your choices are standard coin, error, or variety... Then I suppose those would also be considered errors.

Zoins · December 10, 2021 8:56AM

@moursund said:

@Zoins said:

@braddick said:
I suppose it is an "error" the Mint released the blank planchet into commerce. I agree though- calling it an error on the insert is a bit odd.

If it’s an error because it was released then should the 1933 DE and 1974-D Aluminum Cent that PCGS certified should be errors too?

If your choices are standard coin, error, or variety... Then I suppose those would also be considered errors.

The 1913 Liberty Head Nickel as well.

FredWeinberg · December 10, 2021 9:24AM

Even back in the '60's, we had this discussion about blanks
and planchets being 'errors' or not.

Back then, NECA, and the local error clubs came to agree that
although the planchets themselves were not errors,
they were released, or got out, in error.

Just like clipped planchets aren't clipped, but we call them
that for ease of use, blanks and planchets are grouped
into the category of errors.

That's my two cents worth......

SullivanNumismatics · December 10, 2021 9:27AM

@Zoins said:

@braddick said:
I suppose it is an "error" the Mint released the blank planchet into commerce. I agree though- calling it an error on the insert is a bit odd.

If it’s an error because it was released then should the 1933 DE and 1974-D Aluminum Cent that PCGS certified be errors too?<

Those were produced in the correct manner in terms of their "completeness of production"--the release of them would be the only question (legality, etc.)

A 1933 $20 or a 1974-D were created "correctly"." A planchet or blank, are just in a "stage of production" and never were finished. Although they were made correctly for that stage, they are not "correctly made" coins because the proceeding steps were never completed to turn them into a coin.

Zoins · December 10, 2021 9:28AM

@FredWeinberg said:
Even back in the '60's, we had this discussion about blanks
and planchets being 'errors' or not.

Back then, NECA, and the local error clubs came to agree that
although the planchets themselves were not errors,
they were released, or got out, in error.

Just like clipped planchets aren't clipped, but we call them
that for ease of use, blanks and planchets are grouped
into the category of errors.

That's my two cents worth......

Good to know Fred. Using this reasoning, it does seem like the 1933 DE, 1913 Liberty Head Nickel and 1974-D Aluminum Cent could be considered errors.

Zoins · December 10, 2021 9:29AM

@SullivanNumismatics said:

@Zoins said:

@braddick said:
I suppose it is an "error" the Mint released the blank planchet into commerce. I agree though- calling it an error on the insert is a bit odd.

If it’s an error because it was released then should the 1933 DE and 1974-D Aluminum Cent that PCGS certified be errors too?<

Those were produced in the correct manner in terms of their "completeness of production"--the release of them would be the only question (legality, etc.)

A 1933 $20 or a 1974-D were created "correctly"." A planchet or blank, are just in a "stage of production" and never were finished. Although they were made correctly for that stage, they are not "correctly made" coins because the proceeding steps were never completed to turn them into a coin.

This sounds a bit different than the reasoning used by NECA and local error clubs mentioned by Fred above.

Is this approach supported by error experts, like CONECA?

Jzyskowski1 · December 10, 2021 9:36AM

2019 explore and discover set. Intentionally included in the set. Now we are this far how about the other thread where my first strike pcgs slabbed planchet is, well not struck, so how about that? 🙀

SullivanNumismatics · December 10, 2021 9:40AM

@Zoins said:

@SullivanNumismatics said:

@Zoins said:

@braddick said:
I suppose it is an "error" the Mint released the blank planchet into commerce. I agree though- calling it an error on the insert is a bit odd.

If it’s an error because it was released then should the 1933 DE and 1974-D Aluminum Cent that PCGS certified be errors too?<

Those were produced in the correct manner in terms of their "completeness of production"--the release of them would be the only question (legality, etc.)

A 1933 $20 or a 1974-D were created "correctly"." A planchet or blank, are just in a "stage of production" and never were finished. Although they were made correctly for that stage, they are not "correctly made" coins because the proceeding steps were never completed to turn them into a coin.

That's a bit different than the reasoning used by NECA mentioned by Fred above.

Is this approach supported by error experts, like CONECA?<

There are varying views, and really, it's a topic in the same camp as "are cuds errors or varieties", or "are all clashed dies errors or are they varieties." In other words, there's a reasonable case to be made "for or against" calling them errors, but at the end of the day the coin is generally considered to be "not made correctly." I prefer the definition that if it's not "as intended to look when issued" it is an error.

PCGS blank planchet sells for $1000! How are these authenticated?

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