09SVDB opinions please!
MarkW63
Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭
Bad pictures, but the leg on the second 9 looks way to straight and doesn't follow the curve of the rim, nor even the same curve of the first 9?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
0
Comments
Well the 9 could have taken a circulation hit but the mintmark tells the tale. Mintmark locations 1,2, & 3 dont have the S that far right. Even though MM location 4 has the S farther to the right it is under the tails of the 9, not even with them like in the above picture.
EDIT: location #4
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
My guess would be messed up but genuine.
Look at this, the first one on the list has the same straight legged 9
https://gocollect24.com/coin-fake-detection-1909-s-vdb-lincoln-cent/
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
It is very easy to see why there are questions on this one..... bad photos of a damaged coin.
PMD on the 9 mint mark #3
At least that is my dumb guess... i have been wrong before.
Beat up genuine. What happened to the "L" in LIBERTY. Appears to be entirely absent.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
I vote counterfeit. The dot between D and B doesn't look centered.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
It looks like it has mint mark position #3.
The straight leg 9 could be due to a striking issue and/or counting machine damage.
It is not the same type of straight leg as seen on some fakes.
I think it could be an environmentally-damaged genuine coin.
Okay, I'm going with a total phony for these three main reasons,
(1) The upper loops that closes the 9's the second one is WAY to open!
(2) The leg of the second 9 is to straight!
(3) The vertical bar of the B in the designers initials isn't inline with the left leg of the N in cent!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
(It looks like it has mint mark position #3.)
It may but it seems too far to the right of the first 9
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Look at the position of the designers initials as related to the Wheat Stems, the V.D.B is to centered, it should be a fair amount farther to the left.
I'm still on the phony side of the fence on this one!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Send the seller a very polite inquiry asking for a few more photos.
is that a period next to the D ?
since there are 4 known obv dies, it stands to reason there are at least that many rev dies. how many of the reverses share the same alignment. tbh, i've never really taken it that far but it would be quite useful information to know if they all do or not.
With all the information I've seen about altered and counterfeited 09SVDB's there was only one die used for the reverse of the coin at the San Francisco Mint, so nothing on the reverse moves around from one coin to another.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I'll say it looks to close, but with the picture being what it is I can't say for certain that that's the period at all.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@MarkW63 I see what you are saying and you make a good argument.
Without better photos I don't think the powers that be will remove the listing.
The bad photos make it look enough like a damaged genuine coin.
With all the articles about the reverse position of the VDB I've never read one about different reverse dies either.
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5217/Counterfeit-1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cents/
The next step in authenticating a 1909-S VDB is an examination of the designer’s initials. Victor David Brenner placed his initials prominently at 6 o’ clock on the reverse of the Lincoln cent, which angered some who felt it was too ostentatious. After many complaints were received by the Mint, the initials were removed. They would not be reinstated until 1918, when they were placed on the bottom of Lincoln’s shoulder. This decision is what created the rarity of this issue.
On genuine 1909-S VDB Cents, the VDB has a distinct look. The biggest problem with the VDB on many altered coins is the lack of a slant in the cross bar on the “B” as well as the bottom of the “D.”
In the images below, the crossbar of the “B” and the base of the “D” are flat on the left coin, which is altered, while they are angled on the right coin, which is genuine. The authentic piece also has some strike doubling on the letters of VDB, which would likely not be seen on coins where the VDB was added.
Fake on left - real on right
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Note the position of the dot between the D and the B on the above photos.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1000051/1909-proof-dies-used-including-lincoln-cents
IMO: Fake
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
I vote fake. It is close to position #3 but too far right. The entire coin looks fake to me.
Tom
Okay, I've spent a couple of days looking and comparing different aspects of the coin in the OP and I'm WAY far on the side of the fence of its a total FAKE (counterfeit)
The leg of the second 9 is wrong, its to straight!
The designers initials is to centered the Wheat stems, it should be a little more to the left!
The period following the "D" appears to be to high and to close to the "D"!
Yes, the "N" in UNITED isn't the correct font (Thank You "Steven59")
So, now for a second vote?
Fake? OR
To questionable to be certain?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I also looked at the N in United and it appears correct.
"To questionable to be certain?" Yes
"Without better photos I don't think the powers that be will remove the listing."
If I were in charge of removing listings for ebay and I'm not, there are enough things right about it that I could not justify removing the listing.
As always, I have been wrong before & I will be wrong again.
Changed my mind. I think it is a fake. The mintmark has too little wear relative to wear on the date and the 's' appears to be in none of the known positions of 's' for 1909 Lincoln cent.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
I say it ain't. Pic is too small to magnify but I tried my best: you can see the wider gap in the Crotches of the N
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
@Steven59 "you can see the wider gap in the Crotches of the N"
Upon further review I agree. It was late last night when I checked it.
LOL! - sometimes I can actually see better late at night !
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
@ifthevamzarockin
And? Your red line is even a bit too high on the 2nd "crotch"
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Compare the VDB position of this 09SVDB with that of the one in the OP
Look at how straight up the "B" is on the one in question vs the sample?
Look how close and how high the period is following the "D" vs the sample?
Look how centered the VDB location is on the one in question is vs the sample?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
New photos but not much better.
The spacing on the N make this appear to be the wrong reverse for a genuine svdb.
These photos
may show if tampered with I would guess
With the latest acquired pictures (two of them) I'm calling this one a PHONY! and for these main reasons.
reasons to call this one a FAKE, but I'm going with the more obvious mentioned above.
First the font used in the mint mark, the line that makes up the entire mint mark isn't near fat enough in the middle, and that upper serif is questionable??
The tail on the second 9 is to straight as compared to the the tail of the other, and its loop is to open.
Then on the reverse the period following the "D" in the designers initials is tucked to close to the "D"
They're other split hair (lines)
And here is the best I can do with the pictures to show these issues.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
If it wasn't authenticated I would not touch it with a ten foot pole.
bob
This has been a great thread!
I want to change my opinion of this coin. This coin appears to have the wrong reverse and is a counterfeit.
I love when I am wrong because I learn more.
This coin has bids on it and there is only about 5 hours left.
Maybe with a little luck it will get removed.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274952588426
Seller ended the listing early with a sale to the highest bidder.
My first thought was that the period is too close to the D and not centered... but then I second guessed myself based on the position of the mint mark and the comments... now, I'm back to thinking this is one issue that is so heavily counterfeited that I'd only buy one that's already certified.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Your right about this thread, and its took a good bit of concentration on this one to get where we did with it.
But, I found another No Question 09SVDB Phony that I've already posted in another thread, I've said it before, its raining Fakes & Phonies everywhere!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
To does not equal too
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"