1909 Proof dies used - including Lincoln cents

RogerB

This little table shows the numbers of dies used at the Philadelphia Mint for circulation and proof coinage. Lincoln cent collectors might be interested in the numbers.

robec

Does this include the VDB dies also?

TomB

I'd imagine that the notation for "Old design" would be for IHCs while the notation for "New design" would be combined VDB and non-VDB coinage. Although, I also imagine that folks might argue differently depending upon what ideas they hold most dear.

RogerB

"Old design" refers to the Indian/Liberty design.
"New design" refers to Lincoln.

The table shows 4 obv Lincoln and 2 rev Lincoln. Therefore, 1 Lincoln rev had initials, and the other did not. So all VDB proofs must have been made using the same reverse die.

Obverse is more complicated. Four dies were used but we don't have a clear way to know the combinations. Now, observant Lincoln proof cent folks can help us all with data on the number of obverse dies they have identified for 1909 Lincoln proof cents. (I suspect it is something like 2 obv with VDB rev, and 3 obv with plain rev.)

The language "used by the Coiner" is clear that these were used to strike coins and not extra dies.

Timbuk3

Very interesting !!!

Namvet69

What is that? I cannot comprehend...please put it in an email or text message so that I can read it. Did they really destroy all the dies? Peace Roy

CaptHenway

@RogerB said:
"Old design" refers to the Indian/Liberty design.
"New design" refers to Lincoln.

The table shows 4 obv Lincoln and 2 rev Lincoln. Therefore, 1 Lincoln rev had initials, and the other did not. So all VDB proofs must have been made using the same reverse die.

Obverse is more complicated. Four dies were used but we don't have a clear way to know the combinations. Now, observant Lincoln proof cent folks can help us all with data on the number of obverse dies they have identified for 1909 Lincoln proof cents. (I suspect it is something like 2 obv with VDB rev, and 3 obv with plain rev.)

The language "used by the Coiner" is clear that these were used to strike coins and not extra dies.

Hard to say. Worn-out reverse dies would be destroyed at the end of the year, but unused reverses could be carried over to the next year (other than the obsolete cent reverses). Dated obverses, on the other hand, would have to be destroyed whether they were used or not. It would make sense that they would typically have a few spare unused obverses left over in December just in case they needed them.

ricko

Interesting data... Thanks for sharing Roger... Cheers, RickO

Jimnight

Not many proof dies.

RogerB

All of the dies listed were destroyed. An itemized list of dies and the number of pieces struck by each was also made for each mint. Those lists indicate unused dies, or ones carried forward into 1910 (reverse).

EagleEye

There are three reverse dies for Proof 1909 Lincoln - (1) VDB, (2) Regular non-VDB and (3) Doubled T in UNITED. This doesn't jive with the numbers given.

RogerB

There are only two dies reported. That indicates the possibility of the non-VDB die being lapped or otherwise repaired/altered.

MikeInFL

Very interesting.

Setting aside the proofs with limited mintages, I wonder why some of the business-struck issues (one cent, double eagle, eagle) seemingly wore reverse dies faster and all the rest of the issues wore obverse dies faster.

Perhaps it was something about the relative depth of the devices......

It might be interesting to compare the ratio of obverse to reverse dies across different years to see if a pattern related to issue and design emerges.

CaptHenway

@Mike....might include VDB reverses that were made in quantity in anticipation of a long run but suddenly obsoleted and destroyed.

WoodenJefferson

Well with over 1,450 dies needed for the cent striking, I'd say it cost the mint dearly to strike all those little pennies.

14.3 mil Indian Head
72.7 mil
37.9 mil VDB

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124.9 mil

Avg 84,000 per die set

RogerB

There were several iterations of the reverse. Each had its own striking characteristics and effect on the obverse.

I have a complete list of 1909 Philadelphia dies. It is 30 pages of tables. Sadly, we done have this detail for most other years. (1881-S dollars is an exception.)