@OriginalDan I had Trades that appeared to be the same chop by the same tool. Am i misunderstanding your point about
"I was just having a conversation with some friends about a similar topic, someone had asked whether anyone had found the exact same chopmark on different coins (same character, same tool used). The answer for now, is "no", not that we know of."
@Crypto said: @OriginalDan Please note 74s Obv across lib's arm, 73s Rev across the word Trade
Hey that looks pretty close. Need to zoom in to confirm the "die details", which is more difficult with chops than coins because they weren't applied consistently like mint made coins are. When I stated that I don't think anyone has matched chopmarks between different coins, I think it hasn't been 100% confirmed yet mostly because nobody to my knowledge has tried hard enough.
Keep in mind that I've thought I found a match maybe a dozen times, only to zoom in and realize they are slightly off. But this character isn't super common, so I think it has a chance. I'll pull up the full size images and do an analysis.
@Crypto said: @OriginalDan Please note 74s Obv across lib's arm, 73s Rev across the word Trade
Hey that looks pretty close. Need to zoom in to confirm the "die details", which is more difficult with chops than coins because they weren't applied consistently like mint made coins are. When I stated that I don't think anyone has matched chopmarks between different coins, I think it hasn't been 100% confirmed yet mostly because nobody to my knowledge has tried hard enough.
Keep in mind that I've thought I found a match maybe a dozen times, only to zoom in and realize they are slightly off. But this character isn't super common, so I think it has a chance. I'll pull up the full size images and do an analysis.
I just sold the 74s but I believe the 73s is still in the family
wow! Thanks for the interesting background. NO chop dies are extant?! That's really weird. Obviously they existed in the 1800's... Perhaps they fell victim to the cultural purges in the 1940's and beyond. I
I was of the belief that the number of chops was just correlated to the number of different times that particular piece was used in commerce or traded from bank to bank.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
A testament to just how much the appearance of a chop can change based on differences in the application. This 1796-So 4R has a distinctive cross-shaped chop in relief applied twice that was almost certainly from the same tool, but with the details altered substantially based on how it was applied.
@ChopmarkedTrades said:
A testament to just how much the appearance of a chop can change based on differences in the application. This 1796-So 4R has a distinctive cross-shaped chop in relief applied twice that was almost certainly from the same tool, but with the details altered substantially based on how it was applied.
To my eyes they do look like different chop tools were used, which I think is your point, but I’m thinking in this case it actually was two different tools. That would be a weird coincidence, or maybe the same guy had a couple versions of the same symbol?
A smattering of 8 reales with chops. I really like the XFish 1784 on the left. Luster 'neath the crust.
And here's an odd little 1903-B Trade Dollar with a single punch in the center of the shield. I think I owned her for a couple of years before I even realized it was there:
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
To my eyes they do look like different chop tools were used, which I think is your point, but I’m thinking in this case it actually was two different tools. That would be a weird coincidence, or maybe the same guy had a couple versions of the same symbol?
That's the thing: it looks like two different tools based off the details, but either the same tool was used on both with the differences resulting from variation in the actual application, or there were two near-identical relief chops in the shape of a cross applied to the same coin.
To my eyes they do look like different chop tools were used, which I think is your point, but I’m thinking in this case it actually was two different tools. That would be a weird coincidence, or maybe the same guy had a couple versions of the same symbol?
That's the thing: it looks like two different tools based off the details, but either the same tool was used on both with the differences resulting from variation in the actual application, or there were two near-identical relief chops in the shape of a cross applied to the same coin.
my money is on the former. the latter is too improbable, imo
To my eyes they do look like different chop tools were used, which I think is your point, but I’m thinking in this case it actually was two different tools. That would be a weird coincidence, or maybe the same guy had a couple versions of the same symbol?
That's the thing: it looks like two different tools based off the details, but either the same tool was used on both with the differences resulting from variation in the actual application, or there were two near-identical relief chops in the shape of a cross applied to the same coin.
my money is on the former. the latter is too improbable, imo
But if you look closely, I don’t see how the same tool could have made both. The thickness of the cross bars is significantly different.
To my eyes they do look like different chop tools were used, which I think is your point, but I’m thinking in this case it actually was two different tools. That would be a weird coincidence, or maybe the same guy had a couple versions of the same symbol?
That's the thing: it looks like two different tools based off the details, but either the same tool was used on both with the differences resulting from variation in the actual application, or there were two near-identical relief chops in the shape of a cross applied to the same coin.
my money is on the former. the latter is too improbable, imo
But if you look closely, I don’t see how the same tool could have made both. The thickness of the cross bars is significantly different.
To my eyes they do look like different chop tools were used, which I think is your point, but I’m thinking in this case it actually was two different tools. That would be a weird coincidence, or maybe the same guy had a couple versions of the same symbol?
That's the thing: it looks like two different tools based off the details, but either the same tool was used on both with the differences resulting from variation in the actual application, or there were two near-identical relief chops in the shape of a cross applied to the same coin.
my money is on the former. the latter is too improbable, imo
But if you look closely, I don’t see how the same tool could have made both. The thickness of the cross bars is significantly different.
Different depth and angles of impression. Shrug
Ok fine, I’ll do a close-up comparison when I get back to my computer.
To my eyes they do look like different chop tools were used, which I think is your point, but I’m thinking in this case it actually was two different tools. That would be a weird coincidence, or maybe the same guy had a couple versions of the same symbol?
That's the thing: it looks like two different tools based off the details, but either the same tool was used on both with the differences resulting from variation in the actual application, or there were two near-identical relief chops in the shape of a cross applied to the same coin.
my money is on the former. the latter is too improbable, imo
But if you look closely, I don’t see how the same tool could have made both. The thickness of the cross bars is significantly different.
Different depth and angles of impression. Shrug
@OriginalDan@TradesWithChops Don’t forget the variable of force and resistance in a non-linear application. It was a dude being used as a machine for lots of coins. The first hammer of the day will not equal the last. Also the uneven bump of the arm could have made it slip ever so slightly and redirected the force latterly affecting depth
Also worthy of consideration is that same chop/same tool doesn’t equal same day or same person or same state of tool
Oops Reading is fundamental , you guys were talking about the cross chop, I could go either way in that one. Maybe they had same chop made differently in the casting (human variable) process because they had to make them in bulk. They couldn’t have lasted too long
I missed on a 57-S PCGS EF40 but found this chopped VF35 for $1100 less. I like this coin much more than the EF40. The picture below doesn't do this coin justice. The eye appeal in-hand is terrific.
@Barberian said:
I missed on a 57-S PCGS EF40 but found this chopped VF35 for $1100 less. I like this coin much more than the EF40. The picture below doesn't do this coin justice. The eye appeal in-hand is terrific.
Neat coin, the chop mark looks like 仁 or "rén" which has a few different meanings.
To my eyes they do look like different chop tools were used, which I think is your point, but I’m thinking in this case it actually was two different tools. That would be a weird coincidence, or maybe the same guy had a couple versions of the same symbol?
That's the thing: it looks like two different tools based off the details, but either the same tool was used on both with the differences resulting from variation in the actual application, or there were two near-identical relief chops in the shape of a cross applied to the same coin.
my money is on the former. the latter is too improbable, imo
But if you look closely, I don’t see how the same tool could have made both. The thickness of the cross bars is significantly different.
@OriginalDan said:
But if you look closely, I don’t see how the same tool could have made both. The thickness of the cross bars is significantly different.
The one with the thicker lines looks like it was punched deeper. The angles look the same to me. I'd have to actually measure it, which ive not done to be fair.
Could same punch used shallow versus deep could result in different sized lines depending on the punch's shape?
@OriginalDan said:
These are the chops we're talking about right?
I'm convinced they're different.
This one is definitely a different chop. The angles are off significantly without having to measure. Perhaps the same outfit replacing a worn out chop with a new chop of the same design. It's all conjecture really
I purchased this interesting group from an old collection years ago. The collector made his own displays using glass. The collection had dozens of these types of holders for individual countries or themes. They were stored in three large wooden boxes, think of an old beer case of longnecks in wood with slots on the ends for the handles. HEAVY!
Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
@BustDMs said:
I purchased this interesting group from an old collection years ago. The collector made his own displays using glass. The collection had dozens of these types of holders for individual countries or themes. They were stored in three large wooden boxes, think of an old beer case of longnecks in wood with slots on the ends for the handles. HEAVY!
Flip that 1875 Trade dollar over!!! We want to see if there is a mint mark!
@BustDMs said:
I purchased this interesting group from an old collection years ago. The collector made his own displays using glass. The collection had dozens of these types of holders for individual countries or themes. They were stored in three large wooden boxes, think of an old beer case of longnecks in wood with slots on the ends for the handles. HEAVY!
Flip that 1875 Trade dollar over!!! We want to see if there is a mint mark!
@OriginalDan I had Trades that appeared to be the same chop by the same tool. Am i misunderstanding your point about
"I was just having a conversation with some friends about a similar topic, someone had asked whether anyone had found the exact same chopmark on different coins (same character, same tool used). The answer for now, is "no", not that we know of."
Dan: I believe that I have several coins with same or similar chop marks on them. I don't have them in front of me now, unfortunately.
However... I recently had a collector show me two Trade dollars each with one single chop mark on the almost exact same spot on the reverse. Both chop marks appeared to be identical, however they were upside down compared to each other, so it was not exactly the same. Both coins were 1876-P.
It is interesting to speculate on the stories behind that. Were they both on the same ship to China and both used at the same place for the same purchase???
Dan: I believe that I have several coins with same or similar chop marks on them. I don't have them in front of me now, unfortunately.
However... I recently had a collector show me two Trade dollars each with one single chop mark on the almost exact same spot on the reverse. Both chop marks appeared to be identical, however they were upside down compared to each other, so it was not exactly the same. Both coins were 1876-P.
It is interesting to speculate on the stories behind that. Were they both on the same ship to China and both used at the same place for the same purchase???
@DDR what did the mark look like? Several chopmarked 76-Ps that I've seen in all levels of detail have a shared mark, resembling a diamond with two mirrored 'L's. On the AU example below, it is present on the center of the eagle's breast, while it is shown at ~1:00 on the obverse of the lower-grade Type 2/2.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
@BustDMs said:
I purchased this interesting group from an old collection years ago. The collector made his own displays using glass. The collection had dozens of these types of holders for individual countries or themes. They were stored in three large wooden boxes, think of an old beer case of longnecks in wood with slots on the ends for the handles. HEAVY!
Flip that 1875 Trade dollar over!!! We want to see if there is a mint mark!
100% agree. show us the reverse !!
Just back from short vacation. Will look soon.
Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Was looking for something else today and I ran across this counterfeit British Trade Dollar down in the dungeon. Low-grade silver probably pickled when made to give it a high-grade silver skin. Slightly cup-shaped from all the chops.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
@OriginalDan I had Trades that appeared to be the same chop by the same tool. Am i misunderstanding your point about
"I was just having a conversation with some friends about a similar topic, someone had asked whether anyone had found the exact same chopmark on different coins (same character, same tool used). The answer for now, is "no", not that we know of."
I have pics somewhere
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
@OriginalDan Please note 74s Obv across lib's arm, 73s Rev across the word Trade
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Right on
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Hey that looks pretty close. Need to zoom in to confirm the "die details", which is more difficult with chops than coins because they weren't applied consistently like mint made coins are. When I stated that I don't think anyone has matched chopmarks between different coins, I think it hasn't been 100% confirmed yet mostly because nobody to my knowledge has tried hard enough.
Keep in mind that I've thought I found a match maybe a dozen times, only to zoom in and realize they are slightly off. But this character isn't super common, so I think it has a chance. I'll pull up the full size images and do an analysis.
I just sold the 74s but I believe the 73s is still in the family
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Here's the best I can do for now. If we can track down the original image for the 74-S, we can do better.
wow! Thanks for the interesting background. NO chop dies are extant?! That's really weird. Obviously they existed in the 1800's... Perhaps they fell victim to the cultural purges in the 1940's and beyond. I
I was of the belief that the number of chops was just correlated to the number of different times that particular piece was used in commerce or traded from bank to bank.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
I’ll check my BlueCC repository, on it
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
A testament to just how much the appearance of a chop can change based on differences in the application. This 1796-So 4R has a distinctive cross-shaped chop in relief applied twice that was almost certainly from the same tool, but with the details altered substantially based on how it was applied.
To my eyes they do look like different chop tools were used, which I think is your point, but I’m thinking in this case it actually was two different tools. That would be a weird coincidence, or maybe the same guy had a couple versions of the same symbol?
I do not have any now but great thread
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
A smattering of 8 reales with chops. I really like the XFish 1784 on the left. Luster 'neath the crust.
And here's an odd little 1903-B Trade Dollar with a single punch in the center of the shield. I think I owned her for a couple of years before I even realized it was there:
--Severian the Lame
That's the thing: it looks like two different tools based off the details, but either the same tool was used on both with the differences resulting from variation in the actual application, or there were two near-identical relief chops in the shape of a cross applied to the same coin.
my money is on the former. the latter is too improbable, imo
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
But if you look closely, I don’t see how the same tool could have made both. The thickness of the cross bars is significantly different.
Different depth and angles of impression. Shrug
Ok fine, I’ll do a close-up comparison when I get back to my computer.
A few more I forgot I had, this time on some Chinese minor silvers.
Singular "Shi 4", plenty of translations but can be used for scholar, bachelor, soldier, etc.
Singular chop, can't quite make it out but it looks like a circumscribed "Kan 4" to me, which means "to see" or "to look".
Here is my 1874CC Trade Dollar W/chops.... Cheers, RickO
That’s a good one ricko, cool
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
@OriginalDan @TradesWithChops Don’t forget the variable of force and resistance in a non-linear application. It was a dude being used as a machine for lots of coins. The first hammer of the day will not equal the last. Also the uneven bump of the arm could have made it slip ever so slightly and redirected the force latterly affecting depth
Also worthy of consideration is that same chop/same tool doesn’t equal same day or same person or same state of tool
Oops Reading is fundamental
, you guys were talking about the cross chop, I could go either way in that one. Maybe they had same chop made differently in the casting (human variable) process because they had to make them in bulk. They couldn’t have lasted too long
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Correct me if I’m wrong but do I see toning on this coin??????????
Maybe there is hope after all........
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
I missed on a 57-S PCGS EF40 but found this chopped VF35 for $1100 less. I like this coin much more than the EF40. The picture below doesn't do this coin justice. The eye appeal in-hand is terrific.
Neat coin, the chop mark looks like 仁 or "rén" which has a few different meanings.
These are the chops we're talking about right?
I'm convinced they're different.
The one with the thicker lines looks like it was punched deeper. The angles look the same to me. I'd have to actually measure it, which ive not done to be fair.
Could same punch used shallow versus deep could result in different sized lines depending on the punch's shape?
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
I was talking about this one
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
This one is definitely a different chop. The angles are off significantly without having to measure. Perhaps the same outfit replacing a worn out chop with a new chop of the same design. It's all conjecture really
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
I purchased this interesting group from an old collection years ago. The collector made his own displays using glass. The collection had dozens of these types of holders for individual countries or themes. They were stored in three large wooden boxes, think of an old beer case of longnecks in wood with slots on the ends for the handles. HEAVY!
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Don't let the flame die out!
Flip that 1875 Trade dollar over!!! We want to see if there is a mint mark!
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
100% agree. show us the reverse !!
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Dan: I believe that I have several coins with same or similar chop marks on them. I don't have them in front of me now, unfortunately.
However... I recently had a collector show me two Trade dollars each with one single chop mark on the almost exact same spot on the reverse. Both chop marks appeared to be identical, however they were upside down compared to each other, so it was not exactly the same. Both coins were 1876-P.
It is interesting to speculate on the stories behind that. Were they both on the same ship to China and both used at the same place for the same purchase???
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
@DDR what did the mark look like? Several chopmarked 76-Ps that I've seen in all levels of detail have a shared mark, resembling a diamond with two mirrored 'L's. On the AU example below, it is present on the center of the eagle's breast, while it is shown at ~1:00 on the obverse of the lower-grade Type 2/2.
Yes, that's the chop mark I was referring to.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Wow! So much international history embodied in chopped silver. Thanks for the killer show and tell. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall
Does this count?
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
I like this coin!
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
So you like toning?
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
I do to, neat variety.
.#metoo
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
me2/2
I like circulated early San Francisco coins. I bought this from Harry Smith at the recent ANA show.
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
Just back from short vacation. Will look soon.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
This was legit funny to me, have snickered about it a few times now
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Was looking for something else today and I ran across this counterfeit British Trade Dollar down in the dungeon. Low-grade silver probably pickled when made to give it a high-grade silver skin. Slightly cup-shaped from all the chops.