How long does an appraisal take? UPDATE / Resolution 09-08-21 in first post
Weiss
Posts: 9,939 ✭✭✭✭✭
My insurance provider asked for an appraisal of my collection.
Now I've got some pretty weird stuff--several pop tops of obscure pieces that don't come on the market often. But I've also got a core of pretty nice, medium tier ($5K +/-) mostly US "known quantities".
Wanting to keep it simple, I assembled a group of about 30 pieces with the highest value. Roughly, they are:
10 of those outliers. Rarely up for auction, world/ancient/token.
10 nicer medium tier, mostly US, many CAC
10 generic $20s. MS63-65, some CAC
Everything--including the obscure stuff--is slabbed by our host or ATS. No details pieces. Almost all of the pieces--including the obscure stuff--came from HA or CRO or some other larger, well-known source. These pieces might not have traded hands recently, but comps aren't impossible to find.
Knowing that some of the stuff isn't cake to research, I whipped up a simple Excel with description, denomination, TPG, grade, and a really conservative estimate of what they're worth.
Phoned my local dealer, who has seen much of this stuff over the years and asked if they'd do an appraisal. Not looking for exact, just a solid dollar figure that represents the core of my collection. They know me, know I'm pretty knowledgeable. They trust my knowledge. They know I understand the market reasonably well.
I dropped this small group off on a Thursday afternoon with a print-out of the Excel and asked if they'd be done on Saturday. Their response:
No. Closed Monday, so probably not until Tuesday.
Came by Tuesday: No, I said Wednesday or Thursday.
Came by Thursday: Not done, it'll be Saturday (at this point I'm seeing red flags).
Texted Saturday: 60% done.
Closed on Monday
Texted Tuesday: No, but 100% will be done by Friday.
Check my math, but by my count we were approaching 2 weeks.
At this point, I'm confused and alarmed. I asked them to make sure the collection was there on Wednesday, done or not, so I could pick them up. No malice or anger, it's just time I get my pieces back.
They weren't done. After making me wait outside for 20 minutes, the dealer let me in. I paid them $100 they asked for the work they'd done, checked my coins and left.
So I'm scratching my head. The 10 generic $20s didn't even need to be looked up. The 10 mid-tier stuff is greysheet or eBay. Those 10 obscure pieces might require a visit to HA, Stacks, or Great Collections. Or Krause even, with a healthy dose of dealer experience. Remember I gave them conservative estimates. Don't trust me? Spot check a few random pieces against my valuations to verify I'm in the ball park and go from there.
Would you have waited longer? Would you have bolted with your stuff, relieved that you didn't become one of those stories we've all heard about?
How long would it have taken you to do the appraisal?
*****UPDATE 09-08-21*****
So it's been about a week since I made this first post, figured some might be interested in what transpired with The Rest of the Story:
This whole thing started when my insurance provider asked for a 3rd party appraisal of my coin collection. Without being able to get an appraisal from the dealer I've know and trusted for years, I took it upon myself to do my own appraisal. I sent that appraisal to my insurance company but also reached out to Hugh Wood Inc. on the advice of several in this thread. They specialize in insurance for the collectible market. I found Hugh Wood to be incredibly responsive, answering several emailed questions within minutes, revising estimates based on additional information, and providing a comprehensive, no-deductible quote very, very quickly. However, their coverage is dependent on you being a member of the ANA, an organization I've never felt compelled to join. (Me: 45+ year collector, never been to a major coin show, interested in pretty esoteric stuff).
In the interim, and to my surprise, my current insurance provider responded that my experience and pretty extensive documentation (in addition to a couple of specific appraisals courtesy of John at Coin Rarities Online--the source of many of my top pieces) was sufficient for their underwriters to offer a rider.
Unfortunately, that rider was about twice the price of Hugh Woods offer. Leaning towards Woods, I researched the ANA and opted to join. In the interest in keeping the annual insurance premium plus ANA membership affordable, I went with the discounted multi-year option: You're looking at the newest minted ANA 5-year Gold Member. My policy with Wood is in force with today's mail.
Top take-aways:
1) I hope I never have to use their services, but Hugh Wood has been top notch so far.
2) Even though I didn't wind up accepting my current provider's offer, the process of applying for the additional insurance reminded me that I hadn't included our monitored alarm system in our current policy. Informing them of the alarm will save 2% on our policy going forward.
3) This review also made me consider our coverage for my "other collectibles". Hugh Wood offered to cover them as well, but on those items they were actually less competitive. My current provider added them to our policy at a cost barely more than that 2% we saved with our monitored alarm discount. Essentially full coverage of those items at almost no cost.
4) This process also made me really stop and think about what my collection is worth, in today's market. It was an eye-opener. I had a vague figure in my head and a simple spreadsheet I've updated over the years. But in reality, the actual value is easily twice the figure I was thinking. And it also forced me to really quantify everything. Everything everything. There were several moments of "Oh yeah, there's that box, too", and "I guess I should include these. And those. And those". It's a bit of the proverbial rich man's problem, but it was also a little anxiety -inducing. Long and short, I'm glad I have (almost) everything accounted for and covered. And should something happen to me before I liquidate things myself (many, many years in the future knock on wood), my family and heirs will have some pretty solid, easy-to-understand documentation to help them.
--Severian the Lame
Comments
Sounds very frustrating. I would have been worried as well and wanted to pick up. We’re you offered any explanation of the delay at any point?
You gave them more then enough time to complete the appraisal, with only thirty coins they should have done it right there while you waited.
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Sad... too sad to even make a worthy comment that would be helpful under the circumstances
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I would have a hard time leaving what sounds like at least $50,000 (10 DE's with some CAC and 63-65 alone are at least $25,000-30,000) or much more in coins with a dealer. What if they closed up shop? That would be a hassle I would not want to deal with. Smart to take the coins back and go.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 37 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
No. Would not have waited. Poor service!
If it had only been $50K, I might have left them there longer
No explanation. A couple of times when I stopped by, they were alone, leaning on the counter, looking at their phone.
Everyone is going through stuff in their life. But that right there is reason enough to be jittery about something happening.
As a box of 20 collector, real estate in my collection has to be earned. So many of my pieces are in early generation slabs, with strong eye appeal, and green or even gold CACs. I didn't necessarily value them higher with those elements. But if something happened to them, they'd be virtually irreplaceable even at solid insurance replacement values.
--Severian the Lame
No, I don’t blame you. If everything is slabbed and labeled, I would think you could bring it in so he can put eyes on everything, compile a list/pictures and do the research when he gets time. Why do the coins need to stay with him?
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
Their response:
With them disavowing they said Tuesday, I would've said give them back now, and I'll call you when you're not so busy. As a landlord you know you get little tells or reads on people, well you have to act on them.
Would not have left the shop without them.
Well, you said they know you.
Not cool. I know you've done a lot of business with them over the years. To treat you like some stranger/estate sale customer appraisal seems out of character. I can't see you sitting by and letting this go without a better explanation.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
They are idiots, either do it, or tell you they can't [do it].
BHNC #203
Should have been done in an hour or two.
HUGE red flags, IMHO.
I wouldn't even have been as patient as you.
I would've grabbed my stuff, made sure it was all there and not switched out, and then BOLTED!!
My guess is, either, incompetence or something more sinister afoot.
Yes, be GLAD that you didn't become a statistic!!
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I hate "professionals" who don't keep their word and don't respect the client's time. That said, I probably would have only given them the esoteric stuff to appraise (and maybe just a list, not the actual coins). The rest of the stuff could have been researched fairly quickly and easily via CAC/PCGS price guides in conjunction with auction archives from GC, Heritage, Stacks, etc.
Just my 2 cent piece.
They didn't want to do it and proved that to you.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I wouldn't want to insure my stuff, I like the privacy. I just keep it in a safe place and not really worry about it.
My YouTube Channel
By the way, Hugh Wood Insurance doesn't require an appraisal and only wants individual items listed above a certain dollar threshold, which I believe might be $15,000 per item.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Possible. It's also possible they farmed out the appraisal of the more obscure pieces to someone else who comes in infrequently.
Coin Rarities Online
Very bad dealer. Wasted your $100
Over the years, I've done more difficult appraisals than that in much less time.
I never wanted to be responsible for someone else's valuable property for longer than I had to be.......
Not if your insurance company requires a written 3rd party appraisal.
Looking back on this situation, I was way, way too trusting.
I thought I knew and trusted this person. So it didn't really occur to me to create a simple signed bill or receipt. It's not like I don't do contracts all day long--there's a time to trust someone, and a time to make sure everyone is on the same page, literally.
Just thinking of how it could have gone sideways makes me ill.
Is his business hurting? Has he been playing he ponies? Someone in his family sick?
Any one of these things and a million others could be the case.
So anyway. Let that be a lesson to you. If that voice in the back of your head is urging you to use caution, then use caution.
--Severian the Lame
I don't understand this odd accusation. So they weren't efficient in doing the appraisal? Why is it any more than that? The accusation of attempted theft seems without foundation.
Hey, @jmlanzaf , I appreciate your position. Really. That's why I asked. How long would it take an average dealer to write up an appraisal on about 20 coins (subtracting out the 10 $20 gold widgets)? I don't know, have never had it done in 40+ years of collecting.
I put myself to the test this afternoon. I took my spreadsheet and did my own appraisal. I tried to find the closest match and the nearest date via the sources I listed above. Often I found exact TPGs and grades. A few I got close--off by one point, or having/lacking a CAC sticker. Adjusted the price accordingly.
On the 3 or 4 coins where there just isn't...anything, I took my cost (sometimes a decade or more old now), stuck my finger in my mouth and held it to the wind. A couple I backed down my cost 15% or 20%. One I decided was about right. Another I bumped the value up maybe 10% from what I paid.
Took me the better part of 3 hours, including a few phone conversations and coffee breaks. My dealer, who promised me he'd be done on multiple occasions, took almost 2 weeks before I pulled the plug.
--Severian the Lame
When you asked him to do the appraisal, did you tell him when you wanted/expected it to be completed?
--Severian the Lame
Ok, so you didn't tell him when you needed it to be completed. When you came by on Tuesday, why not take the coins back?
edited to add... You trusted them enough to leave the coins with them. Before condemning them, I'd need to hear their take on this.
Yeah, I'd kind of like to hear it, too. I imagine it'd go something like this:
So this really good customer of mine for many years asked me if I could do an appraisal on a couple dozen of his slabbed coins. He even provided a spreadsheet with his estimates of values. So I told him I'd be done on Tuesday.
Then the funniest thing happened. I just didn't do it. He picked up the coins eventually and I charged him $100.
--Severian the Lame
Wow, the level of amateur cross-examination on this forum is beyond the pale sometimes. By my count, the dealer made a verbal commitment to finish by a certain date four times and failed each time. Unless you think @Weiss is providing untruthful information, what do you need to hear from the dealer?
Ok- I'm convinced. The dealer was trying to scam you and steal your coins. Alert the authorities.
edited to add... If one is only looking for opinions that agree with one's own, it would be best to include that info in the first post, it'll save a lot of time for everybody.
Bad form by the dealer. You made the right decision to pull the plug. He shouldn't have charged you the $100 he did, but I would have paid it like you did just to extract myself from what was a bad situation.
Safe to say I would not be recommending that dealer to my wife or when the coins eventually need to be sold.
For those saying you want to wait to hear the dealer's side, I ask why? The customer perception is all that really matters here. The customer wanted an appraisal. The customer was given delay after delay, with the only excuses being the dealer doesn't work on Mondays, and that the customer was mistaken to understand that the appraisal would be done by the first Tuesday.
The only reason the dealer's explanation for why two weeks was not enough time would be if OP was trying to hurt the dealer's reputation. However, no dealer names were given, so no reputations have been harmed.
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
Dumb question.
Couldn't he have done the appraisal just by verifying the coins and their cert numbers in person, then take a copy of that info on a piece of paper? There is no need beyond a "sight-seen" verification, UNLESS you were asking if any of them were upgrades.
Then you could have taken the coins home with you that day. And he could have given you values at both of your leisures.
just sayin'
It’s the unspoken hierarchy on the forums; dealers are godlike and never wrong while collectors are just mindless consumers that don’t know their ass from a “special” bile green slab box they gladly store their widgets in.
BS
No one is saying that the dealer couldn't have been more efficient. That is VERY different than suggesting some kind of dishonesty.
Keep in mind, this was a written appraisal. It does take some time. It also carries legal weight. We don't know what else was going on in the store at the time. Could they have found the 2 hours earlier? Probably. Should they have found the 2 hours earlier? Maybe. But there is zero evidence that this is anything but subpar customer service.
The problem was they were getting paid $100. Not enough to get anyone excited and playing with his phone was more rewarding than the $100….
BS? Prove my initial statement wrong.
A collector recently got warned for posting about a bad experience with a “sweetheart of the board” dealer. if a collector has a bad experience we better have legal documents ready to share on the forum. I can’t even buy from wizard coin supply on eBay because I’m on the “global block list” despite having zero bad transactions on the board or anywhere else.
If anything, you only help to serve my point. As a coin dealer you aren’t biased or anything.
There’s enough facts you chose to ignore, and it’s a fact it doesn’t take 2 weeks to provide an appraisal for 20 coins when the poor schmuck of a collector has already done all the heavy lifting. And he gladly took his 100 bucks as a storage fee for not appraising his 20 coins? Now that’s BS.
I came in one time and saw you leaning on the counter and I said
Why ain’t you appraising my coins?
I said “I’m tired!”.
If that’s acceptable then it’s BS.
“This business would be great if it weren’t for all the customers!”
I know Weiss well and have done numerous transactions with him and I trust him. If I were a professional coin dealer I would just tell Weiss to do his own appraisal and I would review it to assure his prices were "in the ball park" and then sign it. While many of his coins can be valued using a price guide, several of his coins are esoteric and difficult to value so it's anyone's guess as to the value.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This appraisal takes 2 hours or so,
hence the$100. . He paid $100 for the appraisal not the storage fee. But such an appraisal could be a low priority. If an estate that you could actually buy comes in, you are going to set aside the flat rate appraisal to take care of the larger estate.
There are plenty of dealer criticisms on this forum. What you cannot die, per the other thread to mention, is slander a named entity in the PCGS forum. It's against forum rules.
There is nothing in that story that suggests anything other than sub par customer service. No one is defending the show service. But the idea that there was an attempted theft involved stands without foundation.
There is a lot of interesting comments regarding the case in the OP. Of course we cannot build a legitimate composite without the dealers information. That being said, once I heard this "Came by Tuesday: No, I said Wednesday or Thursday." I would have asked for my coins back and left. I do not tolerate lies. Cheers, RickO
If the appraisal is "low priority", then don't tell the customer (repeatedly) that it will be done 2-3 days hence unless you plan to actually commit to that. It's a matter of integrity and courtesy. Are you familiar with those concepts?
When you start to lose trust in someone who's in possession of your valuable property, the mind can sometimes go to dark places. It seems like you'd rather condemn that impulse than the behavior which triggered it.
Please tell me the "BigMark Low Rings" is safe.
I know I wouldn’t be interested in spending 2-3 hours of my time for a one hundred dollar bill. If the dealer didn’t want to do an appraisal all he had to say was no and this would have been avoided.
LOL! Not even close to making the cut on this small appraisal. But it's safe, BM. It's safe:
--Severian the Lame
Which is why I said this is poor customer service. The only characterization I'm objecting to is the allegation that this was a prelude to a theft.
Allegation or speculation as to possible reasons?
Best answer, imo.
Buying and Selling coins for 54 years, 700+ shows in last 20 years, and boy am I tired.
Purchased and Trademarked the Mohawk Valley Hoard
Originated the Rochester (NY) Area Coin Expo
I honestly don't know. I overthink things.
I've gone from thinking I'm just paranoid to thinking it's a passive-aggressive maneuver for something I've done in the past. They might really just have been busy. Or maybe it was too boring.
I've seen this dealer work through dozens of the traditional great uncle Bob's WWII trophy bring home collection with coffee cans full of worn buffalo nickels and crates of late 1990s "Investor's Mint" colorized silver eagles in special Corinthian leather presentation boxes. The kind of collections that take hours just to sort through.
But at the end of one of those appraisals, they had the opportunity to actually buy the collection and make a buck on it. They know my collection is in pretty strong hands (fingers crossed). So it's a pure appraisal and not an immediate offer to buy.
Still. I'd look at interesting coins for $30 or $40 an hour. Wouldn't you?
--Severian the Lame
Hey Weiss. My comment was directed at our lawyerly dealer friend
I simply go with Hugh Woods Ins
FWIW: I did reach out to Hugh Woods after @TomB 's post above. I'd tried to contact them several years back and didn't get a response, so I backburnered it. But they have been super responsive to me in the last 24 hours. Already have a quote (very reasonable). I'm comparing it to my current provider's quote but Hugh Woods has the advantage right now.
--Severian the Lame
Given the lack of response, must be a dumb question.