Yes, photos would made these discussions much better.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Based on the PCGS price guide the downgrade from 64 to 58 discounts the coin 70% in price. That little bit of rub is costly. Imagine a similar situation on a $10K coin.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
My favorite grade is AU58 and I usually end up paying up to 62 pricing when the coin looks like a 64 with slight rub. Those are my favorite ones to buy.
On the bright side as a collector you do not get charged for non grades. FYi Dealers get charged for all coins that pass or don’t pass meaning it better not just be a shot in the dark sending coins in….
Congrats on 5 out of 7. The two gold stickers are good news and I’m wondering what series they are? Usually Mercs and
Comms have a better chance for golds.
We are active buyers for any CAC gold should you want to sell!
We had a nice group of Newps from ANA in this week and received 12 of 13 sticker. Surprise to us was the one that did not was a end roll morgen which we thought was really pretty.
@Mr_Spud said:
My favorite grade is AU58 and I usually end up paying up to 62 pricing when the coin looks like a 64 with slight rub. Those are my favorite ones to buy.
This is one place where I have no problem with “market grading” at least for 18th and 19th century American coins. To me a true AU-58 is worth low end Mint State money if it’s attractive. I would rather have a pretty coin with a slight rub than, an unattractive, technical grade Unc. with marks or unappealing spots or toning.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The PCGS certified grade of your coin represents a single data point at a discrete period of time at PCGS while its lack of sticker at CAC represents a single data point at a discrete period of time at CAC. No more, no less.
@TomB said:
The PCGS certified grade of your coin represents a single data point at a discrete period of time at PCGS while its lack of sticker at CAC represents a single data point at a discrete period of time at CAC. No more, no less.
Agree, with the caveat that, AFAIK, CAC is very consistent about denying stickers to MS-graded coins with high point friction. So repeat submissions are unlikely to result in a bean in such cases.
Keep in mind this---the coin is still in its pcgs 64 holder. The owner was able to have one of the best numismatist review it and give an opinion. There is no database negatively reflecting on the coin. The owner learned something. All in all a pretty good service provided by cac.
@TomB said:
The PCGS certified grade of your coin represents a single data point at a discrete period of time at PCGS while its lack of sticker at CAC represents a single data point at a discrete period of time at CAC. No more, no less.
It’s quite possible that the owner could send the coin to PCGS five times and they might get five different grades. It’s unlikely if the coin were sent to CAC five times that it would ever sticker.
@gumby1234 said:
A green CAC sticker to my understanding means the coin is exceptional for its grade. If it didn't sticker it could still be a 64 just not an exceptional 64.
A green sticker means that based on CAC’s grading standards the coin is at least solid or high end for the assigned grade and designation. It means no more and no less. While there are exceptional coins with CAC stickers, there are some homely looking ones too.
Separately, it also means the surfaces have not been “messed” with.
Steve
Define "messed with"
Is dipping "messed with"?
It depends on the extent. Unlike most dealers and collectors, I prefer my 20th Century coins like @ricko , Blast White with blinding luster, just as the coin designers envisioned them as they came off the press. My collection is 100% CAC, so I know virtually all of them were dipped in the past, but apparently gently enough to still merit a CAC. Obviously, too much dipping strips away the luster, and it won’t get a CAC.
But dipping Silver is only one issue. Ever wonder why collectible gold coins have such a low percentage meriting a CAC sticker, and hence a very sizable pricing differential between those that merit a CAC and those that don’t? It’s not that CAC feels the vast majority of these gold coins are “C” coins, and not A or B for the grade!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@cheezhed said:
So if the coin was graded PCGS AU58 and was submitted to CAC would it get a gold possibly?
Considering that CAC apparently thought the coin was AU, why would they give it a gold sticker?
Are all AU-58's the same?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@ianrussell said:
Pretty awesome that JA spoke to you himself about your coins. And 5 out of 7 is a great pass percentage.
Ian
I totally agree. JA must have taken a liking to you as a real coin collector. I have had the same good fortune but with over 1000 coin slabs submitted to JA over the past 12 years. He is truly the best there is.
Getting 5 of 7 to CAC sticker on your first round is quite impressive but you will learn as much, if not more from your mistakes than your success. so now you have a better idea of what to pursue but also what to avoid.
You have been given a fantastic gift of fine tuning your apparently already solid grading skills.
There are PCGS and even more NGC slabs in which JA might not consider as qualifying as “solid” for the grade but it is scarce when JA finds such a tremendous over-grading as evidence by his red dot stickers and/or his phone calls explaining why he feels that way. He really enjoys teaching true collectorsin this way.
Certainly take his advice and use it to not only fine-tune your grading skills but to also improve your coin collection to absolutely unquestioned top quality down the road.
Do study the two coins that failed CAC carefully when they you get them back. My experience with JA is that he is right 98% of the time and his opinion should be listened to help you screen your collection for the best of the best. There are always exceptions as even I have decided to keep 2 slabs that JA rejected out of the 49 he rejected over the years because they were so awesome in every other fashion ans well as in my view but they usually are much more borderline cases.
The difference between the AU-58 and the MS-64 PCGS retail value is $30 vs $110 on the 1932 quarter which isn’t so great that PCGS would possibly not try to work something out with you if you keep on nicely protesting to PCGS. PCGS is the best TPG service and much better than NGC but they are also human and cannot be perfect.
i have had previous great success in getting PCGS to compensate me for terribly overgraded and/or altered coins that they missed out on that JA caught but sadly PCGS changed their policy in the succeeding years but there is always hope.
JA is not perfect either. No one is. But go for the 98% plus success rate of PCGS and screen them out with yet another 98% plus success rate of JA and CAC and you will have a collection that someday your family can be proud of and sell easily in case you are not around to defend the quality of your coins.
Laura Sperber is so right when she says stick with PCGS/CAC . But even she is only 98% right as well as there are some but not too many fabulous NGC graded coins. But why not shoot for 100%?
On the other hand, you might want to keep the AU-58 quarter just to remind you that even you are not perfect! And to remind you month after month what to stay away from.
@cheezhed said:
So if the coin was graded PCGS AU58 and was submitted to CAC would it get a gold possibly?
Considering that CAC apparently thought the coin was AU, why would they give it a gold sticker?
Are all AU-58's the same?
Of course not, but that’s irrelevant. Even if CAC thought it was the best 58 they’d ever seen, why would they give it a gold sticker (indicating that they thought it was a solid 60 or better)? Remember, J.A. supposedly already said it was a 58, due to friction.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would want to understand his reasoning, and process. Would thank him for his opinion, make note of it and move on. Rush to blow it out - no.
Going 5/7 on your submission super. Me-Those 5 would then price at CAC CPG basis. Others no change / rush get rid of. As far as discounting that’s a subjective issue for me based on my opinion of coin / eye appeal, cost plus factors. It’s like as head coach I make the final formation (playbook) call for the game Offense / Defense as to formation vs what the OC or DC may think.
@ianrussell said:
Pretty awesome that JA spoke to you himself about your coins. And 5 out of 7 is a great pass percentage.
Ian
I totally agree. JA must have taken a liking to you as a real coin collector. I have had the same good fortune but with over 1000 coin slabs submitted to JA over the past 12 years. He is truly the best there is.
Getting 5 of 7 to CAC sticker on your first round is quite impressive but you will learn as much, if not more from your mistakes than your success. so now you have a better idea of what to pursue but also what to avoid.
You have been given a fantastic gift of fine tuning your apparently already solid grading skills.
There are PCGS and even more NGC slabs in which JA might not consider as qualifying as “solid” for the grade but it is scarce when JA finds such a tremendous over-grading as evidence by his red dot stickers and/or his phone calls explaining why he feels that way. He really enjoys teaching true collectorsin this way.
Certainly take his advice and use it to not only fine-tune your grading skills but to also improve your coin collection to absolutely unquestioned top quality down the road.
Do study the two coins that failed CAC carefully when they you get them back. My experience with JA is that he is right 98% of the time and his opinion should be listened to help you screen your collection for the best of the best. There are always exceptions as even I have decided to keep 2 slabs that JA rejected out of the 49 he rejected over the years because they were so awesome in every other fashion ans well as in my view but they usually are much more borderline cases.
The difference between the AU-58 and the MS-64 PCGS retail value is $30 vs $110 on the 1932 quarter which isn’t so great that PCGS would possibly not try to work something out with you if you keep on nicely protesting to PCGS. PCGS is the best TPG service and much better than NGC but they are also human and cannot be perfect.
i have had previous great success in getting PCGS to compensate me for terribly overgraded and/or altered coins that they missed out on that JA caught but sadly PCGS changed their policy in the succeeding years but there is always hope.
JA is not perfect either. No one is. But go for the 98% plus success rate of PCGS and screen them out with yet another 98% plus success rate of JA and CAC and you will have a collection that someday your family can be proud of and sell easily in case you are not around to defend the quality of your coins.
Laura Sperber is so right when she says stick with PCGS/CAC . But even she is only 98% right as well as there are some but not too many fabulous NGC graded coins. But why not shoot for 100%?
On the other hand, you might want to keep the AU-58 quarter just to remind you that even you are not perfect! And to remind you month after month what to stay away from.
“... as there are some but not too many fabulous NGC graded coins.” I don’t beg to differ, I just differ, and strongly. Some of them have CAC stickers and others don’t. Please go easy on the Kool-aid.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A collector, whom some here, believe to be an alt of a previously banned member.
I may be wrong but it might have been the guy who posted pics of DLRC purchased items who questioned the grading and such who posted about the CAC welcome kit and such.
“... as there are some but not too many fabulous NGC graded coins.” I don’t beg to differ, I just differ, and strongly. Some of them have CAC stickers and others don’t. Please go easy on the Kool-aid.😉
@Gazes said:
Keep in mind this---the coin is still in its pcgs 64 holder. The owner was able to have one of the best numismatist review it and give an opinion. There is no database negatively reflecting on the coin. The owner learned something. All in all a pretty good service provided by cac.
I see @BillJones gave this post a "lol".
Certainly that is your right but I do think these forums are important for new collectors and collectors trying to learn. Cabinet friction is not something all collectors are familiar with and even less can accurately spot it.
CAC has its standards and cabinet friction apparently will cause an unc coin not to sticker. The OP learned this by utilizing the services of CAC. Whether one chooses to disregard cabinet friction when purchasing an "unc" coin or avoid such a coin is up to the collector. But certainly every collector should be aware of it, be able to spot it and then make an educated decision.
In this case, the collector had a pcgs 64 coin. He could have never sent it to CAC and probably would have been oblivious to the cabinet friction. Instead, he sent it to CAC and has learned something and has the exact same coin he started with. Since the coin didnt sticker I believe he didnt even have to pay for it to be reviewed. As an extra bonus he was able to discuss it with one of the top numismatist in the world (imagine the cost to have a top 10 golfer analyze your swing). I thought this was a pretty good service provided by CAC. You seemed to think it was worth a chuckle.
So you are free to post "lol" and some beginner or even more advanced collector may take that is a green light that they dont need any help from anyone even JA. I certainly hope that isnt the case.
I dont believe CAC grades PL AND DMPL morgans. I believe they only sticker based on the numeric grade.
That is incorrect. I asked CAC, in order to confirm, long ago, after I saw someone else post what you did. Likewise, they also take into account designations such as FH, FB., etc.
Interestingly, I asked CAC whether a green CAC on a coin graded prior to a designation such as FH, FB., PFL being recognized could now merit a gold sticker. Their response was when the coin was submitted we were not recognizing the designation. It would not be considered for a gold sticker based on the coin now being qualified for the designation. We only award stickers based on the numeric grade.
@cheezhed said:
So if the coin was graded PCGS AU58 and was submitted to CAC would it get a gold possibly?
Considering that CAC apparently thought the coin was AU, why would they give it a gold sticker?
Are all AU-58's the same?
Of course not, but that’s irrelevant. Even if CAC thought it was the best 58 they’d ever seen, why would they give it a gold sticker (indicating that they thought it was a solid 60 or better)? Remember, J.A. supposedly already said it was a 58, due to friction.
Maybe for the same reason they gave this AU-58 a gold sticker.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
While there are exceptional coins with CAC stickers, there are some homely looking ones too.
In the case of coins that rarely come on the market, the question becomes whether one would rather have a homely looking CAC coin or an "attractive looking" coin that didn't CAC. One could wait years for an attractive CAC coin. My concern is always that a non CAC coin is overgraded or been fooled with.
@cheezhed said:
So if the coin was graded PCGS AU58 and was submitted to CAC would it get a gold possibly?
Considering that CAC apparently thought the coin was AU, why would they give it a gold sticker?
Are all AU-58's the same?
Of course not, but that’s irrelevant. Even if CAC thought it was the best 58 they’d ever seen, why would they give it a gold sticker (indicating that they thought it was a solid 60 or better)? Remember, J.A. supposedly already said it was a 58, due to friction.
Maybe for the same reason they gave this AU-58 a gold sticker.
They award gold stickers to coins they feel are solid for the grade at a grade higher or more than the one on the label. That means they thought the 1836 half was a solid 60 or better.
At the same time, if J.A. thought a coin in a 58 holder was a high end example (but not a solid 60 or higher) he’d have no reason to give it a gold sticker.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@cheezhed said:
So if the coin was graded PCGS AU58 and was submitted to CAC would it get a gold possibly?
Considering that CAC apparently thought the coin was AU, why would they give it a gold sticker?
Are all AU-58's the same?
Of course not, but that’s irrelevant. Even if CAC thought it was the best 58 they’d ever seen, why would they give it a gold sticker (indicating that they thought it was a solid 60 or better)? Remember, J.A. supposedly already said it was a 58, due to friction.
Maybe for the same reason they gave this AU-58 a gold sticker.
They award gold stickers to coins they feel are solid for the grade at a grade higher or more than the one on the label. That means they thought the 1836 half was a solid 60 or better.
At the same time, if J.A. thought a coin in a 58 holder was a high end example (but not a solid 60 or higher) he’d have no reason to give it a gold sticker.
So if I'm understanding this correctly in the opinion of CAC this 1836 50C coin NGC graded AU-58 is actually an MS coin that was under graded. Is that correct?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@cheezhed said:
So if the coin was graded PCGS AU58 and was submitted to CAC would it get a gold possibly?
Considering that CAC apparently thought the coin was AU, why would they give it a gold sticker?
Are all AU-58's the same?
Of course not, but that’s irrelevant. Even if CAC thought it was the best 58 they’d ever seen, why would they give it a gold sticker (indicating that they thought it was a solid 60 or better)? Remember, J.A. supposedly already said it was a 58, due to friction.
Maybe for the same reason they gave this AU-58 a gold sticker.
They award gold stickers to coins they feel are solid for the grade at a grade higher or more than the one on the label. That means they thought the 1836 half was a solid 60 or better.
At the same time, if J.A. thought a coin in a 58 holder was a high end example (but not a solid 60 or higher) he’d have no reason to give it a gold sticker.
So if I'm understanding this correctly in the opinion of CAC this 1836 50C coin NGC graded AU-58 is actually an MS coin that was under graded. Is that correct?
Yes.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@cheezhed said:
So if the coin was graded PCGS AU58 and was submitted to CAC would it get a gold possibly?
Considering that CAC apparently thought the coin was AU, why would they give it a gold sticker?
Are all AU-58's the same?
Of course not, but that’s irrelevant. Even if CAC thought it was the best 58 they’d ever seen, why would they give it a gold sticker (indicating that they thought it was a solid 60 or better)? Remember, J.A. supposedly already said it was a 58, due to friction.
Maybe for the same reason they gave this AU-58 a gold sticker.
They award gold stickers to coins they feel are solid for the grade at a grade higher or more than the one on the label. That means they thought the 1836 half was a solid 60 or better.
At the same time, if J.A. thought a coin in a 58 holder was a high end example (but not a solid 60 or higher) he’d have no reason to give it a gold sticker.
So if I'm understanding this correctly in the opinion of CAC this 1836 50C coin NGC graded AU-58 is actually an MS coin that was under graded. Is that correct?
Yes.
Without seeing the actually coin (my assumption regarding the 50C) what's your level of confidence that if sent to PCGS it would come back with an MS label? I ask because this discrepancy in grading could mean a huge discount in the pricing. Is your experience with CAC such that resubmitting it to PCGS for a possible upgrade would be a no brainer?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I think ANA grading standards in their grading book says Leg/thigh friction /roll rub/ cabinet friction can not go above a 63.
at a Presidential review from David Hall several years ago I showed him a full blast luster PCGS 63 philippine 1929M 20 centavo no marks one of best I have seen (nicer than my 65's) with some friction on the thigh nothing in the fields.
he said friction on thigh/ luster break limits grade to a 63. Years ago pre slabbing such a lustered coin would be called GEM BU
Now its SELECT BU 63
I guess these are their red lines so to speak.
yet, I have seen that rule broken by them in other PCGS slabs . nothing is hard and fast a matter of opinion of who is grading it.
The thing with the ANA grading standard is they purposely left room for interpretation. And I think at this point we can say the TPGs based their standards on the ANA ones but they aren’t ANA standards, they are the TPG standards.
Comments
Yes, photos would made these discussions much better.
Based on the PCGS price guide the downgrade from 64 to 58 discounts the coin 70% in price. That little bit of rub is costly. Imagine a similar situation on a $10K coin.
we probably already have the photos if it is who I think it is. and the person wasn't so good with closeups.
So it got a brown sticker?
Well I would hope JA could at least tell you what kind of cabinet. Filing cabinet, cupboard, China ?
My favorite grade is AU58 and I usually end up paying up to 62 pricing when the coin looks like a 64 with slight rub. Those are my favorite ones to buy.
Mr_Spud
Separately, it also means the surfaces have not been “messed” with.
Define "messed with"
Is dipping "messed with"?
On the bright side as a collector you do not get charged for non grades. FYi Dealers get charged for all coins that pass or don’t pass meaning it better not just be a shot in the dark sending coins in….
Congrats on 5 out of 7. The two gold stickers are good news and I’m wondering what series they are? Usually Mercs and
Comms have a better chance for golds.
We are active buyers for any CAC gold should you want to sell!
We had a nice group of Newps from ANA in this week and received 12 of 13 sticker. Surprise to us was the one that did not was a end roll morgen which we thought was really pretty.
This is one place where I have no problem with “market grading” at least for 18th and 19th century American coins. To me a true AU-58 is worth low end Mint State money if it’s attractive. I would rather have a pretty coin with a slight rub than, an unattractive, technical grade Unc. with marks or unappealing spots or toning.
Some people might tolerate cabinet friction in MS but I’m not sure I’d go as far as saying everyone embraces it.
The PCGS certified grade of your coin represents a single data point at a discrete period of time at PCGS while its lack of sticker at CAC represents a single data point at a discrete period of time at CAC. No more, no less.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
So if the coin was graded PCGS AU58 and was submitted to CAC would it get a gold possibly?
Agree, with the caveat that, AFAIK, CAC is very consistent about denying stickers to MS-graded coins with high point friction. So repeat submissions are unlikely to result in a bean in such cases.
Considering that CAC apparently thought the coin was AU, why would they give it a gold sticker?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Keep in mind this---the coin is still in its pcgs 64 holder. The owner was able to have one of the best numismatist review it and give an opinion. There is no database negatively reflecting on the coin. The owner learned something. All in all a pretty good service provided by cac.
It’s quite possible that the owner could send the coin to PCGS five times and they might get five different grades. It’s unlikely if the coin were sent to CAC five times that it would ever sticker.
Probably a green. If it’s not MS, the only way to get a gold is to be AU59
Embrace the coin as MS, not the friction, of course.
Lance.
A green sticker means that based on CAC’s grading standards the coin is at least solid or high end for the assigned grade and designation. It means no more and no less. While there are exceptional coins with CAC stickers, there are some homely looking ones too.
It depends on the extent. Unlike most dealers and collectors, I prefer my 20th Century coins like @ricko , Blast White with blinding luster, just as the coin designers envisioned them as they came off the press. My collection is 100% CAC, so I know virtually all of them were dipped in the past, but apparently gently enough to still merit a CAC. Obviously, too much dipping strips away the luster, and it won’t get a CAC.
But dipping Silver is only one issue. Ever wonder why collectible gold coins have such a low percentage meriting a CAC sticker, and hence a very sizable pricing differential between those that merit a CAC and those that don’t? It’s not that CAC feels the vast majority of these gold coins are “C” coins, and not A or B for the grade!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Are all AU-58's the same?
I totally agree. JA must have taken a liking to you as a real coin collector. I have had the same good fortune but with over 1000 coin slabs submitted to JA over the past 12 years. He is truly the best there is.
Getting 5 of 7 to CAC sticker on your first round is quite impressive but you will learn as much, if not more from your mistakes than your success. so now you have a better idea of what to pursue but also what to avoid.
You have been given a fantastic gift of fine tuning your apparently already solid grading skills.
There are PCGS and even more NGC slabs in which JA might not consider as qualifying as “solid” for the grade but it is scarce when JA finds such a tremendous over-grading as evidence by his red dot stickers and/or his phone calls explaining why he feels that way. He really enjoys teaching true collectorsin this way.
Certainly take his advice and use it to not only fine-tune your grading skills but to also improve your coin collection to absolutely unquestioned top quality down the road.
Do study the two coins that failed CAC carefully when they you get them back. My experience with JA is that he is right 98% of the time and his opinion should be listened to help you screen your collection for the best of the best. There are always exceptions as even I have decided to keep 2 slabs that JA rejected out of the 49 he rejected over the years because they were so awesome in every other fashion ans well as in my view but they usually are much more borderline cases.
The difference between the AU-58 and the MS-64 PCGS retail value is $30 vs $110 on the 1932 quarter which isn’t so great that PCGS would possibly not try to work something out with you if you keep on nicely protesting to PCGS. PCGS is the best TPG service and much better than NGC but they are also human and cannot be perfect.
i have had previous great success in getting PCGS to compensate me for terribly overgraded and/or altered coins that they missed out on that JA caught but sadly PCGS changed their policy in the succeeding years but there is always hope.
JA is not perfect either. No one is. But go for the 98% plus success rate of PCGS and screen them out with yet another 98% plus success rate of JA and CAC and you will have a collection that someday your family can be proud of and sell easily in case you are not around to defend the quality of your coins.
Laura Sperber is so right when she says stick with PCGS/CAC . But even she is only 98% right as well as there are some but not too many fabulous NGC graded coins. But why not shoot for 100%?
On the other hand, you might want to keep the AU-58 quarter just to remind you that even you are not perfect! And to remind you month after month what to stay away from.
Of course not, but that’s irrelevant. Even if CAC thought it was the best 58 they’d ever seen, why would they give it a gold sticker (indicating that they thought it was a solid 60 or better)? Remember, J.A. supposedly already said it was a 58, due to friction.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would want to understand his reasoning, and process. Would thank him for his opinion, make note of it and move on. Rush to blow it out - no.
Going 5/7 on your submission super. Me-Those 5 would then price at CAC CPG basis. Others no change / rush get rid of. As far as discounting that’s a subjective issue for me based on my opinion of coin / eye appeal, cost plus factors. It’s like as head coach I make the final formation (playbook) call for the game Offense / Defense as to formation vs what the OC or DC may think.
“... as there are some but not too many fabulous NGC graded coins.” I don’t beg to differ, I just differ, and strongly. Some of them have CAC stickers and others don’t. Please go easy on the Kool-aid.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Who was moonstone?
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
No Kool-aid for me.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All of Us
ANA LM, LSCC, EAC, FUN
A collector, whom some here, believe to be an alt of a previously banned member.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I may be wrong but it might have been the guy who posted pics of DLRC purchased items who questioned the grading and such who posted about the CAC welcome kit and such.
Similar to "Cabernet" rub, or friction.
Without photos I would guess the only friction in this thread is the friction the OP is trying to cause between PCGS & CAC.
I see @BillJones gave this post a "lol".
Certainly that is your right but I do think these forums are important for new collectors and collectors trying to learn. Cabinet friction is not something all collectors are familiar with and even less can accurately spot it.
CAC has its standards and cabinet friction apparently will cause an unc coin not to sticker. The OP learned this by utilizing the services of CAC. Whether one chooses to disregard cabinet friction when purchasing an "unc" coin or avoid such a coin is up to the collector. But certainly every collector should be aware of it, be able to spot it and then make an educated decision.
In this case, the collector had a pcgs 64 coin. He could have never sent it to CAC and probably would have been oblivious to the cabinet friction. Instead, he sent it to CAC and has learned something and has the exact same coin he started with. Since the coin didnt sticker I believe he didnt even have to pay for it to be reviewed. As an extra bonus he was able to discuss it with one of the top numismatist in the world (imagine the cost to have a top 10 golfer analyze your swing). I thought this was a pretty good service provided by CAC. You seemed to think it was worth a chuckle.
So you are free to post "lol" and some beginner or even more advanced collector may take that is a green light that they dont need any help from anyone even JA. I certainly hope that isnt the case.
Interestingly, I asked CAC whether a green CAC on a coin graded prior to a designation such as FH, FB., PFL being recognized could now merit a gold sticker. Their response was when the coin was submitted we were not recognizing the designation. It would not be considered for a gold sticker based on the coin now being qualified for the designation. We only award stickers based on the numeric grade.
I learned something from CAC also...
Spend your shipping/submission money on coins.
Find somebody who collects the same coins you do & pick their brain.
Their registry set is kinda their "grading set" and also their "qualifications".
When JA comes up with a grading set like PCGS I will sure be interested in looking at it.
My Saint Set
So @Moonstone was banned and now can't reply but the thread still carries on???
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Maybe for the same reason they gave this AU-58 a gold sticker.
There’s too much stock put into green boogers.
Good discussion nonetheless...
K
While there are exceptional coins with CAC stickers, there are some homely looking ones too.
In the case of coins that rarely come on the market, the question becomes whether one would rather have a homely looking CAC coin or an "attractive looking" coin that didn't CAC. One could wait years for an attractive CAC coin. My concern is always that a non CAC coin is overgraded or been fooled with.
They award gold stickers to coins they feel are solid for the grade at a grade higher or more than the one on the label. That means they thought the 1836 half was a solid 60 or better.
At the same time, if J.A. thought a coin in a 58 holder was a high end example (but not a solid 60 or higher) he’d have no reason to give it a gold sticker.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So if I'm understanding this correctly in the opinion of CAC this 1836 50C coin NGC graded AU-58 is actually an MS coin that was under graded. Is that correct?
Yes.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Without seeing the actually coin (my assumption regarding the 50C) what's your level of confidence that if sent to PCGS it would come back with an MS label? I ask because this discrepancy in grading could mean a huge discount in the pricing. Is your experience with CAC such that resubmitting it to PCGS for a possible upgrade would be a no brainer?
I think ANA grading standards in their grading book says Leg/thigh friction /roll rub/ cabinet friction can not go above a 63.
at a Presidential review from David Hall several years ago I showed him a full blast luster PCGS 63 philippine 1929M 20 centavo no marks one of best I have seen (nicer than my 65's) with some friction on the thigh nothing in the fields.
he said friction on thigh/ luster break limits grade to a 63. Years ago pre slabbing such a lustered coin would be called GEM BU
Now its SELECT BU 63
I guess these are their red lines so to speak.
yet, I have seen that rule broken by them in other PCGS slabs . nothing is hard and fast a matter of opinion of who is grading it.
The thing with the ANA grading standard is they purposely left room for interpretation. And I think at this point we can say the TPGs based their standards on the ANA ones but they aren’t ANA standards, they are the TPG standards.
You're one of those kids who never ate his veggies, aren't you?
Give me all the green beans. I'll take a gold one or three too.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Adios!
