Old collection of cents
logger7
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I got a call from a couple who were dealing with their parent's estate of cents starting with an 1800 cent in very low grade.
The story was that the great grandfather who ran a funeral home in the 1930s got it in trade and kept it. A professor he knew was later allowed to cherry pick the better coins like an 1856 flying cent. What was left at this point was still significant. An 1818 cent with iridescent green toning in Unc. that looked to grade around 64. An 1877 cent in around vf as well. An area full time dealer checked it out and they said that he offered $4200 for the collection. From my experience that dealer usually offers 50% of value or less.
Cents were:
Large Cents:
1818, 1820-1830, 1833-1836, 1838-1857
Indian Cents:
1857, 1858 SL, 1864 BR, 1865-1909
Lincoln Cents:
1909, 1909 S, 1909 VDB
1910
1911, 1911 D, 1911 S, 1912, 1912 S, 1912 D, 1913, 1913 D, 1913 S, 1914, 1914 D, 1914 S, 1915, 1915 D, 1915 S, 1916, 1916 D, 1916 S, 1917, 1917 D, 1917 S, 1918, 1918 D, 1918 S,
1919, 1919 D, 1919 S, 1920, 1920 D, 1920 S
1921, 1923, 1924, 1925, 1925 S, 1926, 1927
1928, 1929
Most were low grade. I told him I would have to do a more rigorous overview of the collection but would probably offer 50% more than the full time dealer. Since this is a tough area of US coinage to ascertain grade and value, what would others do on offers? You never know if there may be rim or other hidden issues.
Comments
As a dealer, I just paid 80% of retail for a bunch of large cents and Indian cents. If you offer 50% more than a dealer, you could be paying 120% of retail.
I would never make an offer based on someone else's offer. 1st of all, I consider it unethical. Beyond that, different dealers have different preferences. A dealer that pays strong for silver might pay weakly for copper, or vice-versa.
I would just look yourself and make your offer. By suggesting a number up front, you've raised expectations.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The main challenge with buying collections is ascertaining grade and value as well as possible tough varieties. Owners can say whatever they want as to what others who they shopped it to valued it at. The first contact was that they thought they had a collection of much greater value. One of the dealers they showed it to gave them valuations based on what was to his advantage were he to buy it. That dealer does not discriminate based on type of coins, but buys based on his projected profit margin. Even if I were to have hard proof of what he had valued it at which I didn't have, nothing was written down--if I had proof that is merely an indication that would be solidified when they went back to his shop. As I didn't say for certain I would pay based on another dealer I don't see anything unethical about that; nor their sharing what the other dealer said would be unethical by them. Written appraisals are another matter; owners pay for that usually, but how accurate are they?
I’d make my offer based upon my sight-seen assessment of the coins, not what someone else offered or might have offered.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You need to do a coin by coin evaluation....Guessing at the value is rife with risk. Cheers, RickO
jmlanzaf and MFeld have given you the answer- look at the coins and make your offer.
FWIW, making an offer based on someone else's offer is a big reason lots of dealers' offers are only good until you walk out the door. Just sayin'.
Large and small cents are harder to grade than silver and gold coins. Plus knowing the dealer who had made the initial offer and his business practice of routinely offering half of market value, I see nothing unethical in suggesting that they could get more money. First I suggested they get the coins graded and then run them on ebay. I told them I would help them to get that done and make a lot of extra money. Later I said I might offer 50% more than the established dealer but would have to go through the collection more rigorously than the half hour I spent the first time.
What was really unethical is the shop dealer with all the advantages of reviewing coins at his desk and offering half of fair market value! So I find it very strange that I would get singled out on this for using his low ball offers as a basis for offering more. I have heard him numerous times discuss his buy/sells. A numismatist has a valued trust relationship with all their customers.
No one is saying you did anything unethical, just unwise. a) you have no proof the dealer really did offer $4200, or that no coins have been removed from the lot that the dealer offered for. b) you really have no idea what the dealer's percentage of retail was, or how difficult those particular coins would be to retail. For those reasons you may have set yourself up for a long time commitment for coins that they interpret you have made a higher bid for than you can afford to pay. If you spend ten hours cataloging and valuing the coins and find that a fair offer is $5000 you've invested a lot of time, not gotten any coins, and lost a couple of friends because they think you're trying to rip them off.
Not unethical, but very unwise.
I don't know that I singled you out, other than it is your thread.
It is a low level ethical question, at best. Just yesterday, I did a purchase offer for a collection of coins. The estate was talking about having an estate sale and they walked with my itemized offer which the shop owner let them take. I told the shop owner that if they come back after the estate sale to not honor the offer. Why? Because I spent two hours making the offer at no charge. If they want to go let the collection get cherry picked at an estate sale to make an extra 10%, then I want to be compensated for the work.
If someone comes in with an offer from another shop, I won't look at it. Since I have no shop, I could always pay 10% more. I will not do it because then I'm profiting from their unpaid work.
I once had someone come in with an offer from another shop. They told me they wanted 10% more. I told them that I wasn't going to do that. By the end, he was willing to take $50 more. I refused to do it. Because, again, I would be undermining the other shop owner for a lousy $50.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Actually, I did say that it was unethical to make an offer based on someone else's work. A collector could always beat a dealer offer by at least a little bit because you don't have to pay the shop's bills. But then you are profiting from the unpaid work of the shop owner. It isn't exactly homicide, but I consider it to be unethical. If you did it at a show or in front of the shop owner, you would be black-balled.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
As I said before it is unethical to offer half of a collection's value. That is the ethical question. I don't hold myself out as an expert, and primarily I suggested the owners get the coins graded and then market them themselves. Secondly I said that I could probably offer considerably more with a lot of conditions. It could be that they were trying to con me, no way of knowing, nothing in writing or to go by but their word. I see no problem with their getting as many estimates of value as they need. Buying an 1877 Indian head cent without knowing the diagnostics is foolish. Ethics is based on honest assessments. I've seen most dealers lie regularly which I don't do. "Unwritten rules" of ethics that you apparently reference have no basis in law. Adhering to a fanatical insistence on your personal rules strikes me as thin-skinned, peevish and legalistic.
In your opening post, you asked “ Since this is a tough area of US coinage to ascertain grade and value, what would others do on offers?”. @jmlanzaf stated his view and what he wouldn’t do. He didn’t accuse you of doing anything illegal. He simply has a different view of things than you do. You have your personal rules and he has his. If you don’t want others’ opinions, it’s better not to ask what others would do.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As someone who agreed to look at "old collections" too many times and rarely found anything worth looking at twice, after spending hours looking at each collection, I'd pass.
If you insist, Lincoln cents aren't hard to grade, unless you have issues re the VF range of said circulated coins. If you have questions, Photograde and Coinfact are at your fingertips. Re the Lincolns in low grade, the only coins worth anything to speak of are the minmarked 09 through 15 dates.
Re errors, they are worth something to the few who collect them.
Re the IHCs, the 1871, 1872, 1877, 1908 S and 1909 S are worth something in low grade; there are a few others. Find out which. Go to Coinfact re mintages. If you can get to a show, you might want to contact Rick Snow when he has a free moment and ask him about them, or if not, call him on the phone and ask for three minutes of his time.
Go to Coinfact re the large cents and for the low grade coins, find out which are the better dates. That, or find a copper guy and ask him about these coins. Specialists will give you a better deal than others.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
It turns out that the dealer told the couple who owned the cents he may be able to pay considerably more than his initial offer a little north of $3K. Legal "weasel" words are necessary if you just don't know clearly what you are buying; he spent less than an hour initially with them, then when they came back he took a second look and offered a hundred more. More power to those who buy such collections.
The dealer who I know who bought the group of coins sent the better ones into Anacs via express service. He thinks they were crazy tough. Many went "colored" or "re-toned"; others graded considerably under what his estimates were. How many graders looked at them, an early cent coin hard liner may have made the final decision.
Customers come in and try to hustle dealers and those who do not hold them out as experts they are looking to "roll". I have encountered two of these in the last month. Not worth the risk.
I was just confessing to having said that. I was not attempting to reiterate the position. > @logger7 said:
I'm confused. Is this the same set that he allegedly offered $4200????
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The couple who owned the coins lied; they told me they were offered $4200 but they weren't. They were offered $3200 and the dealer said he might be able to offer a thousand more if he went through them again and found that there was enough value to offer that. Instead when one of them came back to him with the collection he offered a hundred more and they accepted. Moral of the story, buyers can get fleeced as much as the other way around.
As I posted earlier in the thread: “I’d make my offer based upon my sight-seen assessment of the coins, not what someone else offered or might have offered.”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@logger7, This was interesting but a little confusing to follow.
So you first got a call, but also spent 30 minutes looking at the coins on August 6,
which generated the list of dates,
the 2 high grade coins,
and the "Most were low grade." description.
I'm not sure what you meant by "there may be rim or hidden other issues",
because you could have assessed that in 30 minutes.
Based on this 30 minutes, you could have generated an offer.
It could have been mostly based on spending a few minutes to authenticate and grade the few high value coins.
It would have been risky if you were not fast enough to do this.
So it seems like a good decision to not make a quick offer if you were not sure.
The $4200 figure the seller claimed they were offered should not have really been a factor,
because you would want to assess what you think you would be able to sell them for and your associated costs.
Also, when you say "50% of fair market value", do you mean 50% of wholesale, or 50% of retail, or something in between?
People would lie to me about what they were offered all the time. I would just say, "Pants on fire"....Then they would say, "huh ?".....
I'd tell them I can't pay that much. "Well, how much can you pay ?".....Kind of a dead give-away.....
I met them at Starbucks in the sun; they did not want the coins taken out of the folder so hard to make an accurate assessment. I would be the first to admit this is not how professionals such as my dealer friend handle collections, in his shop with excellent lighting. One option would be to meet potential customers in a conference room at the local library, bring my own light for assessment. I almost never buy from the public, one small collection in the last 4 or so years.