What is the distinction between a well struck business strike and a Proof Shield nickel? ::Photo Add
braddick
Posts: 24,249 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am looking for determining characteristics for proof stuck Shield nickels vs business strikes.
peacockcoins
0
Comments
If you're not talking about the die characteristics for the rare 1880 business strike emission, I'm unclear as what other dates might be sufficiently misunderstood that such an analysis might create benefit.
Would you post images of a confusing group of the same date? 3 pieces would do it. Might keep us focused.
The rims and the edge: nickel is hard, and these should be squared-off in a proof.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
if you are anything like me, the one with the higher price in the redbook is the one I don't have in hand.... allegedly
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
My foggy recollection is that among other dates, attributing 1875's can sometimes give people fits.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
BONGO SAY PICHERS SHOW
I think this is really the only good general answer. There may be specific die characteristics for some issues. But the Mint had a habit of using dies until they were unusable in the 19th century. I imagine a lot of proof dies also ended up striking business specimens.
Jeez
A proof strike should have a mirrored edge. This can be difficult to see if the coin is slabbed, but then the slab will tell you.
Bongo sad. Smile, Bongo, smile.
MORE PICHER LESS CHIMP YAKKETY.
TWO PICHER NEED NO 980 BONGO WORD. NO 4782 BONGO SYLLABLE
TWICE PRICE CHEAP
PICHER NOT, BONGO 420 INDICA, TWENTY-THREE SKIDOO
BONGO MUNCHIES VISUALIZE WHIRLED PEAS
I think he is looking for typical diagnostics to be able distinguish business strike auctions that may be proof strikes. Unless there are specific coins he has in mind then he would surely provide photos. Just an opinion.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
PLATEAU EFFECT PROOF EVERY BIZ NEVERY - CHIMP CLUE YN EASY. PICHER!!!
Jeez
No one gets out of Summer Seminar Intermediate Grading without learning the key differentiating factor between proof and business strikes that's manifested in the plateau effect.
Biblical scholars will understand the subtext of the sin when I say trying to spread info here is akin to "wasting my sweetness on the desert air".
Jeez
The die-marker on this one- as I see on ALL 1866 Shield nickel proofs is the raised dot within the "5" and the shield. It is in the exact center of the coin- both obverse and reverse. Tough to see but once you do it can't go unnoticed.
peacockcoins
Looks like some form of centering mark in lining up the obverse/reverse from the die making process
https://youtube.com/channel/UC6XjGFyoSVFc8X4VhwuOY3A
I take it that Jessup lives in a state where marijuana has been legalized.
"I take it that Jessup lives in a state where marijuana has been legalized."
I take it Jessup lives in a state of confusion.
peacockcoins
I'm not sure what he's taking is legal in any state.
Bongo is a reference to a forum legend
"Knock knock"
"Who's there?"
"Plateau effect"
"Plateau effect who?"
"Plateau effect as a definitive diagnostic for proof production strikes, shield nickels, other series and other metals".
"Nobody's home"
And the one eyed undertaker, he blows a futile horn............
The one-eyed undertaker better be careful that it is actually a horn.
I've rarely observed a population as deeply invested in maintaining its ignorance.
The wise old teacher refuses to teach and simply insults the students. .
A proof without squared rims. That is why they are tough, along with 3 cent nickels and 2 cent pieces. You need to look for die markers. You will need a specialized book with pictures.
I'm told that all you need to look for is the plateau effect. But this chimp doesn't have enough details
The wise old teacher won't work any harder than his intellectually lazy students.
The foolish young ignorant arrogant student purports to be an educator and yet
The young ignorant arrogant student thinks the teacher should do all the work.
The ignorant arrogant student wants me to supply free tuition.
Social Darwinists observe the lazy student fail.
Socrates died for your sins. And you'll never learn.
The wise old teacher finally realizes how much time he wastes on baboons with chimp aspirations.
He decides he may have some chimp in him, but he's mostly a chump.
@ColonelJessup .... Pearls before swine..... (I am surprised you missed that one)
Cheers, RickO
I've heard Vietnamese pigs are quite intelligent. Likely, if they had opposed thumbs, they would have some humans as pets.
Yet the bacon would still be just as sweet
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Among some cannibals, the main course is listed on the menu as "long pig".
Pat, is there is particular coin you were wondering about? If so, can you provide pictures?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm not the one that asked the original question. So far, I've supplied more useful information than you have.
First you asked for 3 pictures, then you went Bongo, and then you just started insulting everyone on the thread.
I'm beginning to wonder who the chimp is...
@braddick said:
I am looking for determining characteristics for proof stuck Shield nickels vs business strikes.
Pat, is there is particular coin you were wondering about? If so, can you provide pictures?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Above, the first post in response to the thread.
"History repeats itself. The first time as tragedy, the second as farce". Geo. Santayana
Understood, but the thread went downhill and then some, shortly thereafter. Sometimes, trying to start over can be a good thing. Hopefully, this will be just such an instance.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Here's a related discussion with a few recognizable contributions including Colonel Bongo when he was feeling less...er...playful
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/985385/how-to-tell-difference-between-old-proof-and-ms-prooflike-gold
I should also mention that Bill Fivaz feels that a well struck MS coin will also show the "plateau effect" although he may be defining the term differently from Rick Sear. It's really more a question of how sharp and squared the transition between the vertical rise and the flat top of the devices.
My personal opinion - not that anyone asked - is that it is more of a continuum than a binary distinction. You can have really hammered MS strikes and QC on proofs is not perfect so you can have more weakly struck PR strikes. But I'm just a chimp.
All I know is every single Proof 1866 nickel I've seen has that small round raised bump on the obverse and reverse (as seen in the photo above). I have yet to see a business strike with this same detail. Thus, I believe the above 1866 Shield nickel is a proof. I was looking for either confirmation or opinions otherwise.
peacockcoins
I have read that TPG's may have labeled business strike coins as Proof struck coins due to the liability and risk of having to replace the cost of a business strike that may be a Proof strike. Would love to hear evidence against or for this statement. Here is a better discussion from 2009 on CoinTalk by Conder101. I respect his opinions.
Jim
"Unfortunately when it comes to the Shield nickels it is flawed. The proof shield nickels often were struck only once and as I mentioned the edges often are NOT squared off. If it wasn't for the existence of pieces that clearly are proofs (Strong mirrors and cameo contrast) and that there are records of proofs being struck, we would probably have decided long ago that they DIDN'T make proofs. After all what can you really point to to tell them apart. They used the same dies for both, struck the coins just one time, most proofs don't have squared edges, poor quality mirrors, and the business strikes often have prooklike surfaces....Conder101"
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The difference?
A lot.
Different coins, methods, etc
BHNC #203
I suppose I could have landed on the Planet of the Japes, The sounds and smells of devolution are surely in the air.
That's interesting. I remember a prior discussion with Insider2 about a similar raised dot on a different coin. I should go look for it.
That certainly could be a marker, but where in the die prep would it have been introduced.
All die markers on this coin conform to the 1866 5c proof.
You have overlooked that the coin is cleaned:
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/42763962
The cleaning has damaged/destroyed the mirrored fields of the coin, hence the erroneous UNC designation.
Another clue: there isn't a die crack to be found anywhere on the OP coin.
.
.
From a past post relating to a Morgan dollar (my emphasis added in bold):
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11167399/#Comment_11167399
Back to the OP coin, there appears to lost detail (i.e., wear) on the devices due to the cleaning, so the features of the plateau effect were likely damaged to some degree, as well. Edit: Alternatively, as @jmlanzaf mentioned, the coin could be weakly struck, which would also reduce the plateau effect.
"The cleaning has damaged/destroyed the mirrored fields of the coin, hence the erroneous UNC designation."
I am not convinced the cleaning destroyed indications this is proof. Even so, this one should have been labeled as an impaired proof.
I appreciate your reply.
You mention, "All die markers on this coin conform to the 1866 proof."
Other than the two I mentioned, are there others?
I should have this coin in hand within a few days and can then look for those then.
peacockcoins
Well, you can tell us when you have it in hand. If the mirrored fields are non-recognizable, that would seem to be the most obvious reason for them to miss it as a proof.
Reverse die markers: doubling on "5" and stars
Obverse die markers: date placement and die chip next to rim at 4:30.
The seller's photos:
peacockcoins
Bill Fivaz, with whom I've co-taught at Summwith and compared > @jmlanzaf said:
No, you should not. I've known Bill for over 45 years. We've co-taught at Summer Seminar many times. Bill doesn't report what he feels, he reports what he seen in hand, what he knows and what he thinks. My conclusions on this topic are very much in concordance with his, and both expressed with real-world experience with coins in hand. You would describe a continuum in the degradation of "plateau effect". I would call it a distribution with 98% of all proofs conforming to within 99.5% of squareness and perpendicularity, and only on nickel would it be this low.
In what I would happily hope is my last Forum post (and DO provoke me, I respect a tenacious troll), I can only express my (off-topic) continually declining faith in the efficacy of the American educational system. Hopefully others with more intellectual rigor than what you are capable of manifesting here will be able to overcome the damage your tutelary techniques and disregard for diligent research have caused for some of your students.
Bless your heart, and the quivering hearts and minds of primates everywhere.
I discussed the coin. If you prefer to discuss me, maybe you should start a thread rather than hijack this one.
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=232297