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Leroy Van Allen Grading Certificate - UPDATED AGAIN

astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited July 2, 2021 9:48AM in U.S. Coin Forum

I was digging around some older certified coins and found this VA Grading Certificate and coin. I have only seen one of these in the past couple of decades. Any others out there?



Numismatist Ordinaire
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces

Comments

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    what he ↑ said

    W O W

    we definitely must find backstory on this one.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • MgarmyMgarmy Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That guy literally wrote the book on morgans so to speak

    100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21

  • edwardjulioedwardjulio Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2021 11:40AM

    .

    End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us

  • Off_Cent_erOff_Cent_er Posts: 164 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2021 1:06PM

    Pretty sure just his signature alone has value. That is really cool.

  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,558 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very, very cool! Wow is right! That's about as rare as hen's teeth I'm sure.

    I do remember seeing one of those ... ??? ... maybe 30 years ago at a shop in Stockton, CA ... IIRC


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder how many of the original coins are still with the certificate as that one is. Probably not many. I've never seen one before.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,558 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @edwardjulio said:
    I did not know that + grades were used in 1988.

    Didn't even notice that. Ha! :)

    I'd never heard of the guy when I saw it, where ever it was. I remember asking the question, and was told, oh, that's so and so, he's a Morgan Dollar expert. The more I think about it, this would have probably been in late 1988, before I went overseas. I had only been collecting a couple years (at the most) by that time.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,640 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've never seen one of those. This one is from the early days of TPGs, but the certificate template itself predates PCGS. Dealers (Leroy was one) may have felt the need to validate what slabs said and to establish a pattern of how well they and the TPGs agreed with each other.

    If you want a more full and first-hand story, you'll have to send him a letter, which he will gladly respond to. He no longer uses e-mail.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @messydesk said:
    If you want a more full and first-hand story, you'll have to send him a letter, which he will gladly respond to. He no longer uses e-mail.

    tyvm! for that update

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,151 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is something else. You should be proud to own that, as I know I would be. I have never heard of such a thing as this by Leroy Van Allen. About the new coolest thing I have seen. Congrats.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll write Leroy Van Allen and update the thread with what he shares.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have certainly heard of Mr. Van Allen, even here on the forum years ago. However, I have not seen the certification before. Apparently he was a form of CAC for Morgans... long before CAC. Cheers, RickO

  • Pretty much priceless.🐍

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2021 9:37PM

    @astrorat said:
    ****UPDATE****
    As an aside ... receiving his letter put a huge smile on my face and a bounce in my step (even with a broken ankle!). My wife was chuckling at how much joy I got from Mr. Van Allen's response.

    that was a pleasurable read.

    ALL of my many interactions with him were nothing short of stellar. i still have a few of his brown paper bag "envelopes" he so loves to use. sent many dozens of coins to him for professional examination and variety/discovery designation.

    thorough, meticulous, thoughtful, considerate, extremely knowledgable and the list goes on.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,558 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the update Lane! Very interesting! Nice that he responded too! :)

    And what a great piece of numismatic history, from the dawn of the grading days.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,410 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It never ceases to amaze me in here at times

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The forum at its best! :)

    All glory is fleeting.
  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,620 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Splendid slice of vam history. Thanks for sharing this. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great info above, I love to learn. :)

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Q&A WITH LEROY VAN ALLEN
    .
    be sure to listen or read the complete transcript online.
    CoinWeek Podcast #50: Talking Morgan Dollars with Leroy Van Allen (www.coinweek.com/coinweek-podcast/coinweek-podcast-50-talking-morgan-dollars-leroy-van-allen/)
    https://coinweek.com/coinweek-podcast/coinweek-podcast-50-talking-morgan-dollars-leroy-van-allen/
    .
    .
    Last week we excerpted a great CoinWeek article by silver dollar die variety expert Leroy Van Allen. On December 16, 2016 CoinWeek's Charles Morgan published a podcast interview with Van Allen. Here's a very short excerpt ; be sure to listen or read the complete transcript online. -Editor
    CoinWeekpodcast #50 LeroyVan AllenCM: So, you said earlier in our conversation that for a time that people could walk up to their bank and get Morgan dollars at face value. Collectors that came around the hobby long after that probably really relate to that story. It boggles the mind. But going back to the early 1960s, about how many Morgan dollars or dollar coins do you think your typical local bank would have in the cash drawer and what condition would they typically be in?

    LV: Well, George Mallis lived in Massachusetts, but he was an architect and he had some jobs down in the Washington, D.C. area. So he would go to the Treasury Department and he would get a bag of a 1,000 and lug it home. This was in the early 1960s, ’61, ’62, and ’63. And then study them. Meanwhile, I lived in Baltimore, Maryland.

    I would go to a reserve bank in Baltimore and also to the Treasury Department in Washington, D.C., since I worked down in Washington, D.C. And I’d get a bag of a thousand and take it home and look at it. I’d always be disappointed when it was just one date, like a ’98-O, or ’04-Os... I liked the mixed date bags. Sometimes they were quite circulated. Other times, they were a mixture of circulated and uncirculated.

    And then I would go to local banks in Baltimore and also in D.C., and there you could get bags from them for a while. Then they started rationing. You could only get a couple rolls, or something like that. Then it was just a roll. And finally, it was just a single coin as they ran out of them. So it was quite an experience and you’d get all of these coins just for a dollar, big coins that were minted way back in the 1880s and 1870s, whereas all the minor coins, you couldn’t go to the bank and get coins that old. So for me, that was the thrill of it.

    CM: And you could probably get some well-worn Seated dollars once in a while in circulation?

    LV: Yeah, once in a while, in those bags... and circulated mainly, there would show up some Seated Liberty dollars. I got a number of those also. But they were pretty few and far between. They weren’t like the Morgan dollars, where you could get a lot of uncirculated ones. You could get all dates, except for the 1889-CC, just going through bags and getting them for a dollar each. And so did my co-author George Mallis.

    But it was really crazy when they started to run out and the dealers would flock down to Washington, D.C. and stand in line to get those bags. I did some of that also.

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @astrorat said:
    ****UPDATE****
    As an aside ... receiving his letter put a huge smile on my face and a bounce in my step (even with a broken ankle!). My wife was chuckling at how much joy I got from Mr. Van Allen's response.

    that was a pleasurable read.

    ALL of my many interactions with him were nothing short of stellar. i still have a few of his brown paper bag "envelopes" he so loves to use. sent many dozens of coins to him for professional examination and variety/discovery designation.

    thorough, meticulous, thoughtful, considerate, extremely knowledgable and the list goes on.

    I thought I was the only one who saved the paper bag envelopes!

    I've made a number of VAM discoveries over the years, and cherish the discovery letters that accompanied each one. Once I sent in a Morgan I thought was a new discovery, and received a hand-written attribution from him. It was verbose and I really appreciate the time spent writing it, especially considering it wasn't a new discovery.

    We also once traded emails regarding a theory I had about the 1887 Donkey Tail VAM, and it was a great conversation. Leroy is truly one of the greats in this hobby, both for his knowledge and his humility.

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,640 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @astrorat said:
    ****UPDATE****
    ...
    As an aside ... receiving his letter put a huge smile on my face and a bounce in my step (even with a broken ankle!). My wife was chuckling at how much joy I got from Mr. Van Allen's response.

    I assure you that receiving your letter did the same for him.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @astrorat said:

    thanks for doing all that and congratz. what a victory all the way around!

    it fascinates me to no end to picture him sitting at a typewriter those many decades ago putting these together.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,558 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh my, my ... an even better update!

    How wonderful!!


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now all you have to do is track down the current location of the three coins shown in the certificates! :)

    All glory is fleeting.
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    Now all you have to do is track down the current location of the three coins shown in the certificates! :)

    Well ... I didn't want to brag ... but he included the coins along with the certificates. ;)

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    I have certainly heard of Mr. Van Allen, even here on the forum years ago. However, I have not seen the certification before. Apparently he was a form of CAC for Morgans... long before CAC. Cheers, RickO

    Van Allen is the VA in VAM. Varieties of Morgan (and Peace?) dollars are given VAM numbers.

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @messydesk said:

    @astrorat said:
    ****UPDATE****
    ...
    As an aside ... receiving his letter put a huge smile on my face and a bounce in my step (even with a broken ankle!). My wife was chuckling at how much joy I got from Mr. Van Allen's response.

    I assure you that receiving your letter did the same for him.

    I hope it lifted his heart. He lost his wife, Marilyn, earlier this year. I worked with her for several years while I was at Coin World.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,640 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    @messydesk said:

    @astrorat said:
    ****UPDATE****
    ...
    As an aside ... receiving his letter put a huge smile on my face and a bounce in my step (even with a broken ankle!). My wife was chuckling at how much joy I got from Mr. Van Allen's response.

    I assure you that receiving your letter did the same for him.

    I hope it lifted his heart. He lost his wife, Marilyn, earlier this year. I worked with her for several years while I was at Coin World.

    Contact with other collectors and looking at their coins is what's keeping him going.

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Its like cacs part 4. opinion of an opinion of a opinion. lol

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

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