Best Ways to Make Numismatics a Profession?
bignubnumismatics1
Posts: 73 ✭✭✭
Any tips from professional numismatists on how to get in the field as a career? I'm finishing up another semester of college and I would like to make my hobby my career. This is my sixth year of seriously collecting coins and I just love being around, talking about, and researching coins. I've been to one summer seminar, and would have been to more had it not been for Covid.
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I heard this from a seasoned dealer:
"To make a million dollars selling coins, you've got to work a million hours."
That stuck with me.
peacockcoins
Are you wanting to be a dealer? book writer? grader? something else?
I write often for competitions but I'd rather not go solely in that direction. I wouldn't mind grading or dealing for a living. I love the profile picture!
There was a thread about a week ago.
It revolved around grading.
UrbanDecay started the thread and had some good advice from MFeld
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Become an independent coin dealer
I’m partially repeating previous posts I’ve made on this topic, but...
Perhaps most important of all, is to be around the right people and to get exposure to the right coins. The “right people” are those who have the knowledge, willingness and ability to teach you. Many have one or two, but not all three of those attributes. And it requires all three. You also need exposure to all types of coins in a wide range of condition. Because without that, you don’t have all important perspective.
I remember a particular interaction with a student, many years ago, one of the two times I taught the advanced grading class at the ANA Summer Seminar. I was showing the class some Walking Liberty Half Dollars graded by PCGS or NGC. And at least one of them was graded 67. It was nothing special to me, but it sure was to the student. He exclaimed “So that’s what an MS67 looks like! I’ve never seen one before.” Until then, he had only imagined what a superb example might look like. You can’t assess coins properly in a vacuum. You need to know what they actually look like in a broad range of conditions.
It would probably be best if you could get an internship or job with a dealer. But if possible, not with just any dealer. Instead, look for one who is one of “the right people” I described and who handles many of the right coins by which to learn.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Learn to grade and open auction price, then look for coins with value left on the table where you can add “value” be it attributions, up grading or plastic value.
If you master those you will find a way to add value to a business
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
1st and foremost, don't love coins.
You can like them. Don't love them. You need to be dispassionate or it clouds your judgment and inhibits your actions.
but than, whats the point, you will be a stupid money making robot.
I disagree. I love coins and know plenty of other dealers who do, as well. While passion can cloud your judgment, it doesn’t have to. And it can also make you a better dealer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
When I started as a dealer, I had been a collector for 35 years, so I had put in the “million hours.” I’ve read that it really takes 10,000 hours of study to become an “expert” in some field.
I loved the job as a dealer. The only think I didn’t like was dealing with show security before and after the event when I was vulnerable to theft.
To be a dealer, you really have to know how to grade coins and spot counterfeits and altered coins. I suppose there are those who make it as “brokers” who could buy and sell based on the grade on the holders, but from my peer group, those guys ultimately failed. Beyond that, you need to constantly keep up with the market in you areas of interest and expertise.
Finally a business degree helped. As an accountant, I didn’t need pay someone to do that for me. Marketing was also a help.
You will be successful. Isn't that the point?
Depends on where the like/ love line is.
If you achieve a certain level, passion can be useful because people trust your passion. Winters, Snow, etc. For most mere mortals, that passion tends to have them passing on widgets that could make money and overpaying for coins that the "love".
I firmly believe you need to be rational and dispassionate.
You see it all the time in this forum. Look at the gold coin with a couple tiny green spots. Every person who screamed "hard pass" are not able to separate their personal feelings. Look at all the CAC threads, including one this morning. The passionate collectors dumping on very saleable coins because their passion clouds their reason.
“Passionate collectors dumping on very salable coins” or screaming “hard pass” doesn’t mean that passionate dealers would do the same.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree! I know a dealer who calls his coins "Product"
Perhaps not, but I've seen it a lot.
Learn to think and buy like a dealer. It is a business, not a hobby.
Many of them call it "product." Have you done any Internet searches or explored the web sites? For them, it is "a product." For you, it might be a passion.
Like you, I made it a goal coming out of college to make numismatics my career. I worked in a shop while studying and had four years of experience by the time I graduated. I have worked as a contract cataloger for seven years, and I buy and sale.
My advice would be to commit, learn as much as you can, and network. And if you have a working knowledge of grading, dealing, writing, etc., then use that to gain experience with a local or national dealer. You may look into internships or try for a full-time position somewhere. If you like it and you’re good at it, you have nothing to lose. Just remember to be patient, persistent, and open to learning how much there is to know. Listen to those who have been doing it for a while.
Dealing in Canadian and American coins and historical medals.
Don't think too hard like a dealer, because you still have to know what it's like to be in the collector's shoes to give him or her good service. I made a lot of money serving want lists. Most dealers don't bother with them, which gave me an edge.
The dealer part comes in when the bug bites to collect. You can keep very little, and for the most part it was upgrades when the coin in my collection went into inventory. Those coins usually sold very quickly. One dealer I knew had a classic "box of twenty" set aside for his collecting tooth.
I heard Chris Rock say recently that when you do something you love, you have boundless energy. When you do something you dont love it can be tiring and draining. When you have boundless energy doing anything you tend to be more successful. If you love numismatics, follow your dream.
Disagree, you must love what you do and the coins you represent.
I know a few serious coin collectors that used their coin collection after they retired with a decent pension to become serious coin dealers. They didn't have coin shops so their overhead was fairly low. They mostly did mail order and most of the coin shows in their geographic area. It kept them busy in their retirement years and they could set their own hours and schedules.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Get an eBay store and beginning inventory start setting up at shows. Have enough material to fill a case at a show. Expand to 2 cases. Don’t let them talk you down or be demoralized by guy setup there across the isle with 4 cases of 320 plus slabs many big ticket. Don’t let him pick you off or talk you down. He is probably buried in a 300k plus investment (in a volatile business arena) that does not pay interest or dividends. With your say $10k beginning inventory he is under more pressure than you especially if your college educated and have a real job. Have fun. One day when you retire getting good retirement income or hit it big you can do the coin biz full time.
Develop an area of specialization. Target material other dealers not likely to have. Realize the most you have to lose is the table fee and any show related expense. Be sensitive to what people coming in the bourse room are looking for, their likely spending budget, and if they have anything to sell. At the same time if a major wholesaler is at the show see what they have.
Develop a numismatic library and get available free pricing apps like CPG, CU, and inexpensive subscriptions like NN and CW. The PCGS inventory (registry) app is free along with coin facts.
I have been working on a book how to be a successful Numismatic Dealer complete with accounting spreadsheet tool I have designed specifically for the coin biz and linked to IRS sch C along with tax guide. The book combines my knowledge and experience being in the coin / currency business since 1990 plus draws from my expertise as an MBA Financial Manager and evening college accounting instructor.
In thirty years, I have bounced from coins, boxing memorabilia, back to coins, Leica cameras/glass, coins, to baseball cards, and back to coins.
Only true collection was around 100 postcards of the Johnson-Jeffries fight in 1910. Dang, I miss those cards.
I found that the my passion comes from study, deal making, and treasure hunting.
Personally find it impossible to collect and deal.... so I hunt and deal and keep TV's as trophies.
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I'm still trying ...and have had a shop for 12 years. Guessing I'm not very professional.
( but I do have a shirt that says "PCGS" on it. )
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Thanks guys! This exactly what I was hoping for.
To build on what Mark Feld said if I were
wanting to get the coin biz I would seek to develop relationships with knowledgeable
dealers who have been around and willing to talk coins with you .
Relationships is what the biz is all about whether it’s developing clients or relationships with other professionals.
Finishing college ? Seek a internship with the likes of Stacks ..Heritage… or one of the grading services
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Read the title and OP only.
Focus on your major.
Coin dealer as a hobby.
Start small test your skills.
Be known to the local dealers.
Coin market might be hot right now but think a few years out. Will the bubble keep building a few more years or will the cycle have started to wind down again?
To me it will always be a hobby with business people breathing down my neck to make them money.
Glad none of them are in the hobby or they might read this.
Finally, remember your knowledge is your asset.
Have you had any luck buying and selling coins, or have you mostly just been buying?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I think passion is important for hobbies, and even work. I also think it's possible and important for passion to not cloud judgment for good decision making. If there's no passion in a hobby, I'd probably find another hobby.
Start with a crap ton of money for inventory, do extensive market research for your location or expect to be one of the 85% of small businesses that go out of business in five years. If you live in an area with too many dealers, you’ll need a niche that can pay the rent and your salary, too few dealers and you’ll need to ask yourself why, maybe it’s been tried there before or the market doesn’t exist.
I would start off looking at professionals you admire and may want to emulate from a business perspective. Then try to get a job with them. Once you have a few years under your belt, you'll have a lot more information on what it takes to be successful with an insider look at how things are done.
…I’ve never met a coin dealer in any of my private clubs
Loving coins is different than loving the work.
Your job is NOT to sit around all day admiring coins. Depending on what aspect of the numismatic business you are in, your day could consist of the following:
I know a lot of "coin guys" who hate dealing with the public. So, their love of coins only gets in the way of their day-to-day. To whatever extent their passion for coins clouds their judgment is a negative and of no use in overcoming their loathing of the general public.
Depending on where you want to live and your goals for a family and lifestyle, I would question whether this is an attainable goal just out of college. It probably can be done but you might have a better financial result following your chosen major. Not trying to discourage you but there’s a another work style component to being a grader (you mentioned that in your post) that needs to be considered too. It’s not all fun and games sitting around grading rarities.
To be honest, there is a lot of truth to that statement.
Successful coin dealers all have one thing in common. They buy low and sell high. How are you going to acquire inventory?
You don't have to love every part of your job, but it's important to love some part of it to be successful.
And yes, it's useful to have passion for the work as well, like grading, research, photography, or managing those that do those functions.
I don't know how to interpret this. Is it their love of coins that gets in the way, or is it their desire not to deal with the public that gets in the way? You seem to be conflating passion for a subject with inability to operate a business. While one may be the cause of the other, it doesn't have to be and there may be many other causes of the latter.
there is a a lot of good advice above ... but I would 1st research the subject matter of "Turning your hobby into a profession" asthere are hundreds of books and articles on the subject. While coin Business may have unique characteristics & challenges - the core principles of successful transitions to starting a business are common. Understand the success factors and failure modes of the process 1st. I have no direct experience in going down this path but had been in a professional leadership roles for 35 years and seeking best practices across an industry is a must. Others above seem to have succeeded in this transition and I am sure many have failed ... it looks like your process has started.
Good luck ... I may not be alive but some day you may have your our Heritage type auction house or TPG service off the ground and running or better yet - a business concept not even explored yet in the hobby.
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
Start now, do it yourself and learn from the mistakes that you will make.
It is all on you.
I came in from the outside. I did not have the guidance of growing up in the field. Thank god!!!
Choose quality over quantity. Choose ethics. Be honest. Be nice. Be ruthless.
Start with so much money you don’t really need to sell coins.
There are times I say to myself... "self, you should have taken this path."
You will make dumb mistakes and costly mistakes, but as long as you learn from them you should succeed.
Debt can be a killer.
Cash is king.
Honesty above all.
Be a net saver.
If possible, reinvest over a decade back into your chosen path.
Your silent business partner is Uncle Sam and your business entity.
My 30 years of dabbling in collectibles is paying off.
Glad I did not have the money at 25 that I have at 55...
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I've been selling for two years now, setting up at smaller shows and flea markets. I don't have the inventory to make a living, but I profit enough to grow my collection while saving a bit for the future.
I would careful with that advice. It might make you think that you can get involved in high priced material that goes way beyond your expertise. Playing in the fast line needs a customer base to support it. Maybe there are some big guys who started out big and just got bigger, but they have to be the exception.
Goofing up and losing a couple hundred is one thing. It might even be good if you learn from the experience. Losing tens of thousands is another. Getting way over extended can put you in the poor house. just look at the Hunt Brothers.
The Hunt brothers' problem wasn't getting overextended. It was having the government change the rules on them.
Coins as a profession? A few thoughts of mine obtained from other industries which might apply to coins? In numismatics I'm the complete novice.
1)you have to have passion. If you love the business you're never at work.
2)Superior grading ability (as well as understanding how the grading services will grade the coins. Understanding what your customers need and want seems to be a key.
3)full working knowledge of current industry trends. What's hot, what's not.
4)A network of people (you need to be liked/respected) Possibly who can send sellers to you or get you leads on where motivated sellers are at.
5Possibly someone who can spot trends early on? I suspect that trends tend to last for a bit.
6)Knowing what you are good at. Try not to play on other peoples turf where you have little edge.
My local gold buyer sees alot of stuff.
It opened my eyes to certain ideas and a development of a 5yr plan.
Why limit myself when there is a robust two way market with PM's?
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Speaking of the hunt Brothers ... Herbert and Nelson reminds reminds me of a story I heard years ago.
HL Hunt (the father) in his later years attended the horse races, everyday, with very close friend. HL always brought his own lunch in a brown paper bag. he never wagered through the parimutuel betting system so he and his friend had private bets between them to save the vig.
One day a reporter saw H.L. and noticed that he saved money on lunches and wagering and was curious as to what HL thought about his sons extravagant lifestyles. Hl supposedly turned to the reporter and said, "if I had a wealthy father, perhaps I would have turned out the same way".
I played golf at a dealer's club and dinner after at his house. Both were impressive. Another dealer I know has 5 kids all in private school with 20k plus per annum tuition. Both started with small businesses and grew them.
I think that there are many, many ways to build a successful career in the coin business, and it doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone to advise you to take one path or another. Almost anything can work if you do it well enough. So my best advice is to keep your eyes and mind wide open, keep trying new stuff, and just follow your nose wherever it leads you.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.