1923-D St Gaudens -- What grade do you think this would get?

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Avocet
Avocet Posts: 275 ✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

I purchased this coin as a kid in the early 1990s from an old dealer in Beaverton, Oregon. I remember that day well as I was so excited to add such a beautiful coin to my collection. Even though I now have some more valuable coins in my collection, this coin will always stand out as a star for me. This was a huge purchase for me in those days but every time I look at this coin I relive the excitement and joy that I felt when I first acquired it.

This coin has not seen much light of day in over 30 years and I am now thinking about getting it graded. I do not believe that this coin has had many owners since it was first minted. What do you think it would grade at? Thank you for taking a look….


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  • mannie gray
    mannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    64

  • csdot
    csdot Posts: 737 ✭✭✭✭
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    MS 64 or 65

    Indian Head $10 Gold Set Album

  • Walkerguy21D
    Walkerguy21D Posts: 12,165 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Looks nice from what I can tell.

    My guess is 64, thinking that the small gouge across the bust and the tick above the knee may keep it from grading higher, but I’m no expert.

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  • MsMorrisine
    MsMorrisine Posts: 40,084 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    64

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    What is that line through "Liberty"

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • Kliao
    Kliao Posts: 5,802 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I think it's a 64.

    Collector
    Over 100 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 57 members and counting!
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  • BryceM
    BryceM Posts: 11,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Looks like a die break to me, but hard to tell for sure.

  • kaz
    kaz Posts: 9,378 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm thinking 64 also.

  • MsMorrisine
    MsMorrisine Posts: 40,084 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I wrote it off since it appears not to have crossed the top of the letters

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021 6:59PM
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    @MsMorrisine said:
    I wrote it off since it appears not to have crossed the top of the letters

    It looks to me like it does. Look at the "Y". It's either a die break or a scratch.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • Coinlearner
    Coinlearner Posts: 2,599 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    64... but it looks just fine without the plastic :) .

  • Smudge
    Smudge Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I will go along with the 64 crowd.

  • vplite99
    vplite99 Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I think it is better than 64 so I'm going 65 against the field for the odds.

    Vplite99
  • Pedzola
    Pedzola Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Looks nice. 65.

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  • Batman23
    Batman23 Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    That is a prize coin for a young collector. I finally picked up my first St Gaudens this year, it took me 40 years to get around to it. I should have bought one sooner.

    Yours looks nice, I'm thinking 64+

  • SethChandler
    SethChandler Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭✭
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    MS64.14765877.

    Collecting since 1976.
  • nwcoast
    nwcoast Posts: 2,906 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @vplite99 said:
    I think it is better than 64 so I'm going 65 against the field for the odds.

    Exactly what I was thinking about my 64 in an old green holder!
    65 or higher

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  • ReadyFireAim
    ReadyFireAim Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021 5:41AM
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    64-65 depending on who & when :) (I can't see the left or right fields in the picture)

    The 23-D is noted for being one of the more interesting coins.
    Die Cracks are common through "LIBERTY" and the "egg" (sun)
    You can have booming luster, intense toning or both in the same coin.
    Vigorous die polish lines are also common.

    Virgil Brand was rumored to have had 4 bags.
    Most of them came from South America around the 1980's in smaller batches.

    Showing more die cracks

    Here is "spotlight" luster (intense luster in center and toning on outside)

    My Saint Set

  • blitzdude
    blitzdude Posts: 7,726 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Nice 63, congrats!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
    BOOMIN!™
    Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
    Retiring at 55, what day is today? :sunglasses:

  • PQueue
    PQueue Posts: 901 ✭✭✭
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    If the pics are accurate, 65 at a minimum.

  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Looks like a 63 maybe 64.... quite a few small marks. That one really needs in hand viewing. Cheers, RickO

  • savoyspecial
    savoyspecial Posts: 7,374 ✭✭✭✭
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    64+

    www.brunkauctions.com

  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,935 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    MS-64

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Coinscratch
    Coinscratch Posts: 11,086 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Here is is Photograde's 64. I like yours as 65+ or 66.

  • Lazybones
    Lazybones Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Lock 65

    USAF (Ret) The purpose of Bourbon is to make you feel like you should feel WITHOUT Bourbon. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.

  • ReadyFireAim
    ReadyFireAim Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021 7:51AM
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    @CoinscratchFever said:
    Here is is Photograde's 64. I like yours as 65+ or 66.

    Saints aren't all graded the same.
    This came back from PCGS recently at MS64
    They are even harder on 23-D's

    (Right click & open image in new tab to enlarge)

    My Saint Set

  • Catbert
    Catbert Posts: 8,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ReadyFireAim said:

    @CoinscratchFever said:
    Here is is Photograde's 64. I like yours as 65+ or 66.

    Saints aren't all graded the same.
    This came back from PCGS recently at MS64
    They are even harder on 23-D's

    RFA - do you think CAC has influenced a tightening of gold grading at PCGS?

    Seated Half Society member #38

    "She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
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  • jom
    jom Posts: 3,538 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Not sure if this helps but PCGS graded this one MS66

    jom

  • JimTyler
    JimTyler Posts: 4,101 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I don’t like those poke holes between the rays right side rays (as you face it).

  • Coinscratch
    Coinscratch Posts: 11,086 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ReadyFireAim Yea, me not knowing these I was afraid you or someone was gonna say something like that. I'm just going on what basic grading knowledge I currently have. From the photo the OP's coin looks to have really good luster and minimal marks but after that, it gets down into the weeds for me.. Skin or something? The way it makes your eyes twitch I don't know :D I would have assigned a 67 and a CAC for yours :)

  • BuffaloIronTail
    BuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,767 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    A nice and lustrous example that would push it into a 65.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • ShaunBC5
    ShaunBC5 Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Based on your personal history with the coin and the spread between 63/64/65, I think protecting it in plastic is pretty good idea.
    Do you remember what grade you bought it at?

  • Coinscratch
    Coinscratch Posts: 11,086 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Color and eye appeal should come into play as well, assuming that is not a cell pic. Cells tend to enhance the color and luster.

  • ShipwreckCoinHunter
    ShipwreckCoinHunter Posts: 1,990 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021 9:27AM
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    I will go with Ms 63.
    Have the same date and mint ms 62. These coins tend to have high luster for there grade.

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,175 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Apropos nothing at all, a bit of trivia. In 1917 the Philadelphia Mint sent $20 obverse and reverse dies to Denver, but they did not get used due to the suspension of gold coinage caused by World War One. Gold coinage resumed in 1920, but in that year the Denver Mint began a years-long upgrade of its precious metals refinery. The upgrade finished in 1923, and the Denver Mint began striking Double Eagles, finally using up those reverse dies made in 1917 and carried over in the die register from year to year.

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • CalifornianKing
    CalifornianKing Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭✭
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    I think it's MS63/64.

  • Coinscratch
    Coinscratch Posts: 11,086 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @CaptHenway said:
    Apropos nothing at all, a bit of trivia. In 1917 the Philadelphia Mint sent $20 obverse and reverse dies to Denver, but they did not get used due to the suspension of gold coinage caused by World War One. Gold coinage resumed in 1920, but in that year the Denver Mint began a years-long upgrade of its precious metals refinery. The upgrade finished in 1923, and the Denver Mint began striking Double Eagles, finally using up those reverse dies made in 1917 and carried over in the die register from year to year.

    At least until '24 or '25 when the DDR happened?.

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,175 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @CoinscratchFever said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Apropos nothing at all, a bit of trivia. In 1917 the Philadelphia Mint sent $20 obverse and reverse dies to Denver, but they did not get used due to the suspension of gold coinage caused by World War One. Gold coinage resumed in 1920, but in that year the Denver Mint began a years-long upgrade of its precious metals refinery. The upgrade finished in 1923, and the Denver Mint began striking Double Eagles, finally using up those reverse dies made in 1917 and carried over in the die register from year to year.

    At least until '24 or '25 when the DDR happened?.

    The 1917 reverses were used up in 1923, along with many new reverse dies.

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • Jimnight
    Jimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I like it at 63.

  • ReadyFireAim
    ReadyFireAim Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Catbert said:
    RFA - do you think CAC has influenced a tightening of gold grading at PCGS?

    Yep

    The only thing in all of coin collecting that I absolutely trust myself to do is recognize the difference between a MS65 & MS66 Saint Gaudens $20 coin...And very little else. :D

    So far as reducing all saint grades by one full point across the board in hopes of upping the bean %, I don't see that ending well.

    We shall see B)

    My Saint Set

  • ReadyFireAim
    ReadyFireAim Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021 12:23PM
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    @jom said:
    Not sure if this helps but PCGS graded this one MS66

    Another one of those "spotlight" 23-D's....Very nice.

    @CoinscratchFever said:
    @ReadyFireAim Yea, me not knowing these I was afraid you or someone was gonna say something like that. I'm just going on what basic grading knowledge I currently have. From the photo the OP's coin looks to have really good luster and minimal marks but after that, it gets down into the weeds for me..

    The PCGS grading photo for "MS64" is a MS63 but you are absolutely correct in your assessment based upon that photo.
    PCGS's standards have changed but they haven't updated their grading set yet.
    This is one of several problems I think they'll have "chasing beans"

    My Saint Set

  • Samuel8
    Samuel8 Posts: 432 ✭✭✭
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    I should have bought one of these several years when it was only around $1200-1300. I like the high relief eagle.

  • Coinscratch
    Coinscratch Posts: 11,086 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ReadyFireAim - Great! So they got even tougher. So let me see if I got this straight. The old standards are back!
    So If I buy a medium aged PCGS graded Saint in a 64 it might actually grade to a 63 in today's standards. But if I buy a really old PCGS slabbed MS64 Saint it will most likely match todays standards? If that is true then the window already closed on me. Unless occasionally, that rattler would somehow still upgrade past a 64.
    Am I even close?

  • Avocet
    Avocet Posts: 275 ✭✭✭✭
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    @ReadyFireAim said:
    64-65 depending on who & when :) (I can't see the left or right fields in the picture)

    The 23-D is noted for being one of the more interesting coins.
    Die Cracks are common through "LIBERTY" and the "egg" (sun)
    You can have booming luster, intense toning or both in the same coin.
    Vigorous die polish lines are also common.

    Virgil Brand was rumored to have had 4 bags.
    Most of them came from South America around the 1980's in smaller batches.

    Showing more die cracks

    Here is "spotlight" luster (intense luster in center and toning on outside)

    I was not aware of the details regarding common die-crack patterns for the 1923-D and other pieces of history you mentioned; I am very grateful to know this and thank you so much for sharing! The image that you have shared is a close match for the die-crack through “liberty” in my example.

    I took pictures posted here with a macro lens, DSLR, and flash side lighting— the lighting may be too intense (was set to 1/4 power), color temp may be a bit warm as well. The depth of field is so razor-thin that it was hard for me to get the focus crisp for the upper edges. I am still working on improving my photographic technique for coins….

    I took this coin to a coin show in Portland many years ago and an NGC grader there provided a ‘curbside’ grade of MS-65 at that time. The question regarding CAC impact on TPG services is very interesting, and I suspect that there must be some pressure on TPG graders to grade to a point where a CAC would not be applied— i.e. the grade is “spot-on”— who knows….

    One member of the forum asked what grade was provided at the time I acquired the coin. I purchased the coin from a very old, small-scale dealer in Beaverton Oregon in 1993, and surprisingly (to my memory) no grade was discussed or estimated at the time (I made my own estimate). The dealer had two St Gaudens examples at the time, and I chose this one based on eye appeal. The luster is truly spectacular. Thanks to everyone for the assessments and comments— I continue to learn a great deal from all of you!

  • Avocet
    Avocet Posts: 275 ✭✭✭✭
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    @CaptHenway said:
    Apropos nothing at all, a bit of trivia. In 1917 the Philadelphia Mint sent $20 obverse and reverse dies to Denver, but they did not get used due to the suspension of gold coinage caused by World War One. Gold coinage resumed in 1920, but in that year the Denver Mint began a years-long upgrade of its precious metals refinery. The upgrade finished in 1923, and the Denver Mint began striking Double Eagles, finally using up those reverse dies made in 1917 and carried over in the die register from year to year.

    This is very interesting and important to know-- understanding this history adds to the value and appreciation of these coins for sure...

  • NPO
    NPO Posts: 32 ✭✭
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    65 all day!

  • ReadyFireAim
    ReadyFireAim Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021 3:56AM
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    @CoinscratchFever said:
    But if I buy a really old PCGS slabbed MS64 Saint it will most likely match todays standards?

    Crackers have mostly taken care of those.
    My guess is there have already been 10 pairs of eyes on every coin that comes up through the dealer network.
    I found a couple on E-Bay that were sleepers but had to take a chance on some really bad pictures.

    My Saint Set

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