Crossover ICG to PCGS
rons
Posts: 338 ✭✭
Anyone want to share their experience in crossing ICG to PCGS results? I am considering crossing a couple of $10 Indians that grade 64 but want to consider whether to just sell them and purchase already graded by PCGS. Thanks for sharing any thoughts 
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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I would try to cross .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Without knowing your expectations and without any photos of the coins its difficult to answer, I do not spend money to exchange plastic but my guess is that the crossover rate for ICG is less than 50%. If you have a very keen eye your success may be much higher.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Probably better results than trying NTC!
If you think they are accurately graded you can give them a try. Or if you just want PCGS plastic go with any grade and hope they are problem free. If you think you can get PCGS money for them, then sell and buy what you like in PCGS plastic.
The Guarantee Premiums tend to make crossovers not practical. Since there is a significant difference in price between MS63 and MS64. You may want to sell the ICGs and buy PCGS graded coins. You could crack the coins that you think are solid MS64 and send them in raw.
I broke this one out of an icg slab to send in to pcgs, instead of going the crossover route. Took two attempts, but finally graded same grade as icg.
It depends on the coin. I've had an ICG coin go up a grade and I've had an ICG coin go down a grade.
If you are confident they will grade the same or better I would crack them out to avoid the extra crossover fees.
Collector, occasional seller
Wow, that one went through a lot to get that amazing color. A very nice keeper, regardless of what grade or plastic is is in.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Without knowing what the coins look like or the grading proficiency of the owner?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have several ICG graded gold coins and every one is spot on as far as grade is concerned in my opinion. I choose to not spend the money for changing the plastic.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thanks for the comments. Pictures would be helpful
based only on my experience and on the images above, if they are the two coins in question, I would suggest that you should sell the coins as they are and avoid ICG in the future.
My grade guesses would be 63+ (edited: at best) on the first one and 63 (edited: or lower) on the second one. So if I owned them, I would not try to cross them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Based on the pictures, I believe the money would be wasted...They likely will not cross at grade. If you like the coins and want PCGS plastic, crack them and submit, hope for the best. I would sell as is and buy the coins you want in the plastic you want. Cheers, RickO
I had a bunch of key date Morgan dollars in the old green ICG holders I consigned to @ianrussell a few years back. He did say that they were some of the nicest coins he had seen in ICG holders. I think about 95% of them crossed at grade except for a couple with light cleaning so it’s certainly possible.
Update - just saw your images and I am not sure they would cross.
Gary
I would predict that these coins would cross at a 63 at best. I definitely do not see any cleaning from the pictures. If one did cross at a 64, I would say the 1915 Indian would. The 1916 has some unfortunate hairlines/small scratches on the cheek of Liberty, as well as a larger gash a little north of 3:00. I would send in the 1915 with a minimum crossing grade expectation of MS63. I would personally rather have a PCGS slabbed MS63 than an ICG MS64.
I doubt if either coin you picture would grade 64 at PCGS.
Sorry for derailing this thread, but I have a question peripherally related to ICG. Does anyone know what happened to the young Harvard graduate who was at Pinnacle for a while and then did grading for ICG? I’ve forgotten his name, but a very talented guy. When I heard he had joined ICG (15 years ago now!) I thought they might become a competitor.
Edited to Add (1) : With regard to the Indian Eagles, assuming the photo of the 1916 in unflattering, I'd call it MS63. But the photo really highlights the scratches, making it look 62ish.
Edited to Add(2): With regard to my off topic query above -- it turns out that my confusion was about ICG rather than Pinnacle. I was thinking of Scott Schechter, who is a 2000 Harvard grad, was at Pinnacle where I met him in 2003, and is now Chief Numismatist and a Finalizer at NGC.
No one at ICG had those credentials from 1998-2007. James Taylor may have attended Harvard but was not "young". Nor was anyone previously employed by Pinnacle. Perhaps your dates are off. To put back on thread, The $10 indians look hi 62 to me. J.P.
Not my series but put me in the NO camp.
Sell while PM's are hot.
Recycle the cash into PCGS gold.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
A lot of the better old holder ICG coins have been cracked or crossed already. At that point I believe graders were Keith Love, Walt Armitage and JP Martin. Coins that tended to get the grade bump were those with gem like characteristics of originality but that objectively were not fully the grade given. Probably 70% or more of their grading was the same as with P and N. Hard to know from pictures, if luster is exceptional you could get a crossover.
There's more puttied gold in ICG holders than the other 3 TPG's but both your coins look fine.
So I see both crossing at "any grade" but maybe neither at MS64.
Sell both as is and consolidate proceeds to buy a single better condition PCGS slabbed eagle.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I recently cracked out an ICG 62 1921 Peace dollar I purchased on eBay, and it came back from PCGS a 64!!
Sorry, that's all I got for a pic.
And now......I was greatly shocked to say the least.
She is a beauty, and well struck. Too bad for the cheek hits.
She's toned enough that I can overlook those. scars.
To think I told the seller that her eBay pics disguised those scratches and I may just return the coin.
Alas, but I did not!
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/41366262
As usual, I do things backwards.
Sent a bunch of 20c to ICG including a few PCGS slabs because they recognize B-F varieties and our hosts do not. Of the 4 PCGS I sent, 2 came back with the same ICG grade. A PCGS PR60 got bumped to ICG PR61.
But a 1875-CC BF-1 in PCGS VF20 came back ICG F15 Details; scratched. 😞
I don’t think Scott’s currently grading at NGC, though he’s still there and did in the past.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
.about 15 years ago, I attempted to cross a 1928 & 1928 S Peace dollar... both graded 64 . The 28 crossed, but the 28-S did not. Again, that was the old ICG before they switches places and employees with ANACS
I don't understand this advice. If now is the time to sell gold because it is hot, shouldn't the OP wait for gold to retreat to buy? I mean I'm not market timing any of my assets, but isn't the way to do it not to buy and sell at the same time?
I had a ICG MS63 grant with star that I tried to sell with Heritage, they submitted to PCGS and it was upgraded to MS64. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference in grades.... At least I can't.
With the current ICG I have gotten some minor downgrades, ICG to PCGS (AU55 to 53, etc.), and a few upgrades out of the holder to NGC. Frankly I would not trust their money grades that much, old holder or new holder especially when we are talking mintstate Indian gold. I looked at some old holder $5 Indians from a large dealer, I guarantee none would cross. They were all original looking with merits of the grade given but had some defect that would preclude a crossover. They just don't have a big enough company. Same thing with Anacs money grades. A dealer showed me an 1890-s $20 Lib. in an old Anacs MS63 holder that was original looking but too many marks for grade. And Anacs does not guarantee the grade on their small old white holder coins while ICG will guarantee the old holder coins with cert. on front as far as I know.
I would rather see both of these in hand first and before being overly critical of ICG. I would not spend money to cross these either.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I crossed two ICG VG $5 gold pieces last year... both crossed at the same numerical grade. That's been my only experience to date.
Dave
If it makes sense, I think my eye is trained more to PCGS grading standards when it comes to Morgan Dollars. (Have not got there with other series)
This became apparent when I was taking the ANA grading course with NGC coins. My grade was always one grade tougher than the NGC grade. Same when looking at coins on the bourse.
My opinion of PCGS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG graders is not the issue.
I certainly welcome and respect the professional second opinion.
It is typically the market perception of the non PCGS slab and what grade it will cross.
In this case, if you cannot judge, I would just sell and move onto PCGS and call it a wash. Gold could drop 20% in the six weeks you are waiting for the cross.
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