Another 09 S VDB on ebay, Is it real or fake?

MarkW63 · March 14, 2021 2:58PM

This one for me is more iffy!
The lower loop of the (S) mint mart looks to be to low (loops to far downward, maybe its just smashed)
The serif's on the mint mark especially the bottom one doesn't like right either?
Then the period following the V in the VDB looks like a teardrop shape, but about and around the VDB is those possible tool marks?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cent/284211393088?hash=item422c51b240:g:vs8AAOSwUhJgSVkZ

MsMorrisine · March 14, 2021 3:36PM

i have my opinion and will see what others say.

let's say it is real without doubt, that 995 is a bit above what it is worth considering the scratches above VDB.

vplite99 · March 14, 2021 4:22PM

Suspicious. I don't like those scratches.

2dueces · March 14, 2021 4:23PM

I wouldn’t even consider purchasing a high dollar raw coin so I never look at these auctions

skier07 · March 14, 2021 4:41PM

Even if it’s real that coin is ugly.

I bought a raw 1909-S VDB a while back at a local auction that happened to be coinciding with a Long Beach show. I showed the coin to three prominent dealers in LB. One said it was fake, the other said it was real but details quality, and the other one said it was the real deal. The coin now sits in a PCGS/CAC 35 holder.

LanceNewmanOCC · March 14, 2021 4:47PM

looks like what i call mm pos 4 and the correct vdb and dots. don't like the scratches but won't condemn it for that alone.

if it's bad, they got me.

jesbroken · March 14, 2021 5:01PM

I see nothing to make me feel it's counterfeit. Condition of the coin not an issue for the OP's question. I figured it would be counterfeit, but I think not. My opinion.
Jim

JBK · March 14, 2021 5:09PM

I just don't see any reason why a coin like the 1909SVDB is not slabbed. Sure, they were collected raw for most of their existence, but with all the fakes out there why take a chance.

Kliao · March 14, 2021 5:18PM

Those scratches around the VDB really bother me.

MarkW63 · March 14, 2021 6:40PM

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
looks like what i call mm pos 4 and the correct vdb and dots. don't like the scratches but won't condemn it for that alone.

if it's bad, they got me.

The scratches raises questions?
I thought (think) the serif at the bottom looks to ROUND of a dot instead of the normal bar or leg. Although I did find another one on ebay that was slabbed (graded) and the serif on the bottom of it looked to be round too.

CoinMeister · March 14, 2021 6:47PM

Not one I would personally buy especially a key date. Any key date for me would need to be certified/graded even though I believe this coin to be authentic. There are too many good fakes for every one authentic coin out there. And even the authentic ones don’t always grade. They may get tagged as “cleaned”, “scratched” or otherwise from a TPG service.

Again, this is my opinion for a key date purchase. Others may prefer their coin, key or otherwise, to be raw. Also, if you ever intend to resell it. You will run into the same questions from others. That alone would be a hard pass for me. A graded coin from a reputable TPG service with high eye appeal is worth the wait and cost.

Jimnight · March 14, 2021 7:03PM

I don't mess with key date raw coins.
Good diagram by @LanceNewmanOCC

koynekwest · March 14, 2021 8:02PM

If you're looking for one I would suggest you buy one already slabbed by one of the four legit slabbers-PCGS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG, and especially the first two.

MarkW63 · March 14, 2021 8:20PM

@koynekwest said:
If you're looking for one I would suggest you buy one already slabbed by one of the four legit slabbers-PCGS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG, and especially the first two.

I'm not in the market for one now, but I got into a mess with the purchase of a FAKE one several months back, and I'm still involved in getting most of my money back. I did purchase one from a PCGS certified dealer on ebay that was slabbed/graded for $900.00 and I'm still out about $300.00 for the fake!
So, over the course of nearly a year and doing research on counterfeit 09 SVDB's I still find myself checking ebay listings trying to spot the FAKES. From time to time I post them here as questionable, let the experts check them out, and if they're a fake then they know the ebay contacts to get the listing pulled. Plus its good coin talk for forum conversation!
Thanks For Your Post!

koynekwest · March 14, 2021 8:24PM

You're welcome! I guess I misunderstood your post. That's too bad about the rip-off. It's happened to me, too.

MarkW63 · March 14, 2021 8:25PM

@CoinMeister said:
Not one I would personally buy especially a key date. Any key date for me would need to be certified/graded even though I believe this coin to be authentic. There are too many good fakes for every one authentic coin out there. And even the authentic ones don’t always grade. They may get tagged as “cleaned”, “scratched” or otherwise from a TPG service.

Again, this is my opinion for a key date purchase. Others may prefer their coin, key or otherwise, to be raw. Also, if you ever intend to resell it. You will run into the same questions from others. That alone would be a hard pass for me. A graded coin from a reputable TPG service with high eye appeal is worth the wait and cost.

Good fakes, you're correct. Here is the fake I got took on before I found this forum, well it was this one that started my research on these fakes. I had $500.00 in this one, so far I've gotten $200.00 and a promise of another $200.00 someday!

robec · March 14, 2021 9:26PM

@MarkW63 said:

@CoinMeister said:
Not one I would personally buy especially a key date. Any key date for me would need to be certified/graded even though I believe this coin to be authentic. There are too many good fakes for every one authentic coin out there. And even the authentic ones don’t always grade. They may get tagged as “cleaned”, “scratched” or otherwise from a TPG service.

Again, this is my opinion for a key date purchase. Others may prefer their coin, key or otherwise, to be raw. Also, if you ever intend to resell it. You will run into the same questions from others. That alone would be a hard pass for me. A graded coin from a reputable TPG service with high eye appeal is worth the wait and cost.

Good fakes, you're correct. Here is the fake I got took on before I found this forum, well it was this one that started my research on these fakes. I had $500.00 in this one, so far I've gotten $200.00 and a promise of another $200.00 someday!

Besides the problem with the mint mark, the dot between the D and B being closer to the D is a dead giveaway. Only a fake would have a non centered dot between the two letters.

MarkW63 · March 14, 2021 9:48PM

@robec said:

@MarkW63 said:

@CoinMeister said:
Not one I would personally buy especially a key date. Any key date for me would need to be certified/graded even though I believe this coin to be authentic. There are too many good fakes for every one authentic coin out there. And even the authentic ones don’t always grade. They may get tagged as “cleaned”, “scratched” or otherwise from a TPG service.

Again, this is my opinion for a key date purchase. Others may prefer their coin, key or otherwise, to be raw. Also, if you ever intend to resell it. You will run into the same questions from others. That alone would be a hard pass for me. A graded coin from a reputable TPG service with high eye appeal is worth the wait and cost.

Good fakes, you're correct. Here is the fake I got took on before I found this forum, well it was this one that started my research on these fakes. I had $500.00 in this one, so far I've gotten $200.00 and a promise of another $200.00 someday!

Besides the problem with the mint mark, the dot between the D and B being closer to the D is a dead giveaway. Only a fake would have a non centered dot between the two letters.

Yep!, also, the dot (period) after the V on the fakes is lower to the leg of the V than a genuine one. I found an excite one of these on ebay a few weeks ago, I'm pretty sure someone on here got the listing took down.

LanceNewmanOCC · March 14, 2021 10:35PM

@MarkW63 said:

the B in VDB has a slanted middle bar. some counterfeits you come across, this will be horizontal instead of diagonal.

the fake you posted here is not like the ones i usually see.

one thing i've learned and learned fairly fast is just because a dealer has been a full-time dealer for 50 years and sold 10+ million dollars worth of coins does NOT mean they know how to authenticate. especially across all denoms. some don't care. either way, it is not easy. this goes for raw and slabbed.

as if counterfeit detection isn't difficult enough for raw coins, having to dodge counterfeit TPG holders and possibly now cac and other stickers is just a real hard gut-punch.

one thing i don't see enough from people that harp on about not buying raw but buying slabbed, is to be careful of the slabs as well and they are only getting better at counterfeiting them and coming up with new devious ways and strategies to food people.

rule #1 - start a digital folder and start filling it with images of counterfeits (make some mock-ups perhaps and put them on your phone/tablet). learn how to drag-n-drop from a website to the folder. quick, easy and effective. try to get at least 20 different sets of images for key dates especially of coins you are willing to purchase, raw or slabbed. start another folder with professional authentic images, i recommend pcgs coinfacts and heritage auctions active/archives.

learning authentic coins with added mintmarks, embossed (a buff was posted recently), altered dates/mm is imperative if you are planning on spending enough to buy 16-ds, 09s vdb, etc.

if it makes you feel better, there are NO collectables out there that there aren't counterfeits of. just the world we live on. its a good thing we have each other here.

what is it the veterans here say, caveat emptor?

ricko · March 15, 2021 7:25AM

I agree with all the cautions of buying raw key coins. On the specific cent in the OP, I would pass for that and the tool marks around the V.D.B. - just not worth the hassle. Cheers, RickO

WAYNEAS · March 15, 2021 7:48AM

I would not buy it.
Wayne

matt_dac · March 15, 2021 7:54AM

You are inviting a scam if you buy key coins raw. I would not be interested at any price.

BuffaloIronTail · March 15, 2021 8:25AM

@jesbroken said:
I see nothing to make me feel it's counterfeit. Condition of the coin not an issue for the OP's question. I figured it would be counterfeit, but I think not. My opinion.
Jim

It's a genuine Die #4. Some slight damage to the MM is all.

Pete

mr1931S · March 15, 2021 8:51AM

I would not buy it.

This^

MarkW63 · March 15, 2021 9:24AM

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@MarkW63 said:

the B in VDB has a slanted middle bar. some counterfeits you come across, this will be horizontal instead of diagonal.

the fake you posted here is not like the ones i usually see.

one thing i've learned and learned fairly fast is just because a dealer has been a full-time dealer for 50 years and sold 10+ million dollars worth of coins does NOT mean they know how to authenticate. especially across all denoms. some don't care. either way, it is not easy. this goes for raw and slabbed.

as if counterfeit detection isn't difficult enough for raw coins, having to dodge counterfeit TPG holders and possibly now cac and other stickers is just a real hard gut-punch.

one thing i don't see enough from people that harp on about not buying raw but buying slabbed, is to be careful of the slabs as well and they are only getting better at counterfeiting them and coming up with new devious ways and strategies to food people.

rule #1 - start a digital folder and start filling it with images of counterfeits (make some mock-ups perhaps and put them on your phone/tablet). learn how to drag-n-drop from a website to the folder. quick, easy and effective. try to get at least 20 different sets of images for key dates especially of coins you are willing to purchase, raw or slabbed. start another folder with professional authentic images, i recommend pcgs coinfacts and heritage auctions active/archives.

learning authentic coins with added mintmarks, embossed (a buff was posted recently), altered dates/mm is imperative if you are planning on spending enough to buy 16-ds, 09s vdb, etc.

if it makes you feel better, there are NO collectables out there that there aren't counterfeits of. just the world we live on. its a good thing we have each other here.

what is it the veterans here say, caveat emptor?

I'm glad you mentioned the counterfeit slabs!, because back when I first came to the forum that was the FIRST thing I found out about a cache of FAKE silver dollars a new acquaintance had acquired, Fake Silver dollars in fake PCGS slabs, a couple of people here picked up on the fake slabs really quick.
So, after that I become really concerned about buying even slabbed & graded coins!

robec · March 15, 2021 10:35AM

@MarkW63 said:

Yep!, also, the dot (period) after the V on the fakes is lower to the leg of the V than a genuine one. I found an excite one of these on ebay a few weeks ago, I'm pretty sure someone on here got the listing took down.

The 1909-P VDB has both centered dot and non centered dot varieties.

CoinHoarder · March 15, 2021 11:11AM

I bought this one raw from my trusted coin dealer back in 1992. I submitted it to PCGS a couple of years later. The only reason that I bought it raw, was because I knew if it was fake, my dealer would have given me a refund.

Having said that, I would never buy a raw key date for any reason. If it is raw, it makes me wonder why? And why should I have to pay to get a coin slabbed that may be a fake or details grade, when I can buy one already certified?

Hard pass!

MsMorrisine · March 15, 2021 11:16AM

I think it is real and over-priced

MarkKelley · March 15, 2021 12:16PM

The only key date raw coins I own I've had since before the advent of slabs. It was our only choice back then, and we sometimes got bitten. No reason not to buy slabs now.

MarkW63 · March 15, 2021 3:26PM

@CoinHoarder said:
I bought this one raw from my trusted coin dealer back in 1992. I submitted it to PCGS a couple of years later. The only reason that I bought it raw, was because I knew if it was fake, my dealer would have given me a refund.

Having said that, I would never buy a raw key date for any reason. If it is raw, it makes me wonder why? And why should I have to pay to get a coin slabbed that may be a fake or details grade, when I can buy one already certified?

Hard pass!

Well, I ended up having to buy one certified even though I knew I was going to Crack it out of the slab so it could be inserted into my collection album that I've been working on completing sense around 1981, I mean my idea was to fill all the date ranges & mint marks including the key dates and the 09S VDB was the last empty slot.
Cracking this one out of the slab made # 3 to de-slab.
From here for the collection is to get all the proofs from 1936 to current which I'm needing 7 more (36-42 I have the rest) then to go through and work on upgrading everything that I've graded below Fine.

Here is 2 of the three I've took out of slabs.

MarkW63 · March 15, 2021 4:08PM

In training my eye for the signs of a counterfeit 09S VDB I've noticed another common sign and that's with the orientation of the dot (period) following the V in the VDB. On many of the counterfeits where that has the V.D.B. of the Philly mints the Dot is positioned lower on the leg of the V than it is on the San Fransisco mint. So, I took the two different mints and draw a line from that period to the stem of the wheat which shows the difference. I post another 09S VDB on here before that appeared to not have the period between the D & B but it had the lower period next to the V, so I thought it possible for someone to have removed the one dot (period) because its a quick reference to a counterfeit when its in the wrong position, not knowing that knowing that the period beside the V also has a different location, or as I see it does. Anyone else here agree? I've not heard anyone else mention this aspect of a counterfeit 09S VDB before.

MarkW63 · March 19, 2021 7:42PM

Based on what I'm finding out here about the counterfeit 09S-VDB I just found this new ebay listing with an 09 coin group with one of the coins being an 09S VDB, I'm going to call it a FAKE!
What a crap look mess for an S mint mark,
Then look at the screwed up rim to the right,
The periods are all wrong in the V.D.B,
The seller has ZERO feedback,
The coin isn't graded (non slabbed)
Experts Please?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-lincoln-cent-Lot-of-three-1909S-vdb-1909-vdb-1909/193973725338?hash=item2d29bc289a:g:zzcAAOSw0ipgVDUS

PerryHall · March 20, 2021 1:24AM

@MarkW63 Yup. It's a crude struck fake typical of what's coming out of China these days.

MarkW63 · March 20, 2021 7:48AM

@PerryHall said:
@MarkW63 Yup. It's a crude struck fake typical of what's coming out of China these days.

What strikes (pun intended) me so odd is if it has got 1909 S VDB on it anywhere people (lots of them) will bid on it. Back maybe a year ago I saw one of those 3" Rounds on ebay that wasn't listed as such (for real) when I found it it was up to like $500.00 I sent the guy a contact telling him that the bidders are thinking the coin was a genuine US minted coin and that whoever wins the bid on it was going to be extremely upset when they receive a $5.00 3" copper paper weight. He let the auction play out and sold it, I don't remember what it closed out for but it was over $600.00 dollars.

MarkW63 · March 20, 2021 7:51AM

@PerryHall said:
@MarkW63 Yup. It's a crude struck fake typical of what's coming out of China these days.

Update! I just clicked the link in my post to check on that listing, its been taken down. BINGO!

MarkW63 · March 20, 2021 7:58AM

Okay, here is another one I gave a second look at, I'm going to go this one fake too (of course as a NON expert)
I based that call on much of the lettering,
Front side (obverse) look at the extra metal in the O in God?
Look at the deformed letters (Reverse) In States Of America (look at the different lower leg of the E that's used)
And there isn't a visible V.D.B. to even judge that?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-Wheat-Penny-Lincoln-Cent-1c-Better-Grade-XF-AU-Detail-RARE-30578/164762532089?hash=item265c9cb8f9:g:TrYAAOSwW5dgUQYC

Bruce7789 · March 20, 2021 1:40PM

Jeeeezzz, talk about hyper critical people! Next you'll be saying that the counterfeit coin I posted on jabba's fund raining site isn't real! Well it is! It is a real counterfeit coin, and was in a folder I bought at a yard sale of Wheat pennies, because I wanted the mint State 1910 Wheatie in the folder. Couldn't go wrong for $3.00.

So if any of you collect counterfeits, go over, throw a few bucks at it to jabba and I'll mail it out post haste!

Another 09 S VDB on ebay, Is it real or fake?

Comments

Leave a Comment