Respectable Dealers Acting As Fences ?

1630Boston · February 19, 2021 1:07PM

.

abcde12345 · February 19, 2021 1:10PM

"It is impossible for so many dealers to make a living out of collectors legitimately."

Damn, that's brutally cold.

1630Boston · February 19, 2021 1:11PM

coinsarefun · February 19, 2021 1:37PM

Interesting to say the least

Unknown · February 19, 2021 1:49PM

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1630Boston · February 19, 2021 2:08PM

Interesting position to be in @jmlanzaf
I do not know the legal answer.

abcde12345 · February 19, 2021 2:14PM

I was under the impression legal title can never be passed on stolen property.

yspsales · February 19, 2021 2:34PM

Would love to hear from dealers how to navigate this dilemma.

Does it affect offers they make?

What is the biggest loss incurred?

Surely they would have the most to lose in terms of reputation, career impact... etc

TomB · February 19, 2021 2:37PM

Certainly!

TomB · February 19, 2021 2:37PM

Oh, you wrote "Fences"...not "Fencers"...

panexpoguy · February 19, 2021 3:05PM

@jmlanzaf said:
Hmmm....not sure what to make of that. Certainly some dealers try harder than others to ascertain title.

If by "fence" you include people who have unwittingly sold stolen material, then every dealer has been a fence. Right now I have a small collection in my possession that I'm pretty sure was stolen. But the police told me to keep it. Well, the police told the dealer I got it from to keep it.

The story goes:

There was a robbery from a fairly large hoard. The hoard was uncatalogued. A local dealer bought material from the person later charged with the theft.

In NY State, dealers have to post purchases on a website for as long as 14 days to make sure they aren't stolen. It depends on the jurisdiction, it was 10 days for this dealer. On the 11th day, he sold the collection to me. On the 15th day, the crime was discovered.

The police went to the dealer who went to me. I returned the material to the dealer. The police arrived with the victim who could only prove ownership of a small number of coins in the hoard. The police seized those and told the dealer he could keep the others. The dealer sold those back to me.

Now, were these items "fenced". All laws were followed and essentially legal title passed to me even though they may have been stolen. Given that they came from an alleged thief who was arrested, they were likely stolen from someone even if not the person who came forward. But after the 10 day hold, title legally passes.

If a dealer follows the letter and spirit of the law then they are not a fence. A fence doesn’t suspect items they trade may be stolen, they know they have been stolen. In your story, the rules were followed by all parties. Maybe you trust your gut and walk away if a transaction makes you uneasy, but the presence of suspicion is not evidence the coins are stolen. You have to trade to make your living.

Unknown · February 19, 2021 4:14PM

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abcde12345 · February 19, 2021 4:16PM

Thanks for the clarification.

Unknown · February 19, 2021 4:18PM

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tokenpro · February 19, 2021 5:38PM

Supposedly somewhere in the years of accumulated papers, records and research I have a detailed list of the Civil War tokens stolen from Doc Aqua -- quite a few of us watched closely for several years but not a piece ever surfaced. I purposely use that term as (IIRC) the main lead that the police had was that the collection ended up in a river, Civil War, trade tokens and more. I was not aware (or don't remember hearing) that part of Newman's CWTs were stolen as well.

Along · February 19, 2021 8:57PM

@abcde12345 said:
I was under the impression legal title can never be passed on stolen property.

Have to prove it was stolen first?

PerryHall · February 20, 2021 2:21AM

@abcde12345 said:
I was under the impression legal title can never be passed on stolen property.

That was overturned in the famous court case of Finders Keepers versus Losers Weepers.

ricko · February 20, 2021 8:07AM

Certainly slabbed coins can be identified... However, raw coins often - actually mostly - cannot be identified - unless clearly part of an itemized group that were stolen. Then they will be deemed stolen per the association with the other coins if previously noted in the list of missing property. Cheers, RickO

Zoins · February 20, 2021 8:12AM

@tokenpro said:
Supposedly somewhere in the years of accumulated papers, records and research I have a detailed list of the Civil War tokens stolen from Doc Aqua -- quite a few of us watched closely for several years but not a piece ever surfaced. I purposely use that term as (IIRC) the main lead that the police had was that the collection ended up in a river, Civil War, trade tokens and more. I was not aware (or don't remember hearing) that part of Newman's CWTs were stolen as well.

How could Doc Aqua's tokens be identified? Are there photos or detailed descriptions?

Lots of tokens are coming to the market all the time.

1630Boston · February 20, 2021 9:56AM

It seems like "Newman" here is asking Herman if he has any of Newman's stolen items?

BuffaloIronTail · February 20, 2021 10:01AM

@1630Boston said:
Interesting position to be in @jmlanzaf
I do not know the legal answer.

I am also "On the Fence" about the whole matter.

Pete

tokenpro · February 20, 2021 10:18AM

@1630Boston said:
It seems like "Newman" here is asking Herman if he has any of Newman's stolen items?

Make that "if he had" -- I believe that the postal conversation began after Doc Aqua's collection was stolen and notice was published in Coin World, NN and the CWTS Journal which may have alerted Eric Newman and initiated the exchange. Newman was looking for any potential trail left from Newman's theft. Dr. Herman Aqua was a straight shooter (& a good guy) and the CWTS was a pretty tight group at that time with little involvement of the larger auction companies & not as many mainstream coin dealers active as in later years.

1630Boston · February 20, 2021 10:22AM

@tokenpro said:

@1630Boston said:

Make that "if he had" -- I believe that the postal conversation began after Doc Aqua's collection was stolen and notice was published in Coin World, NN and the CWTS Journal which may have alerted Eric Newman and initiated the exchange. Newman was looking for any potential trail left from Newman's theft. Dr. Herman Aqua was a straight shooter (& a good guy) and the CWTS was a pretty tight group at that time with little involvement of the larger auction companies & not as many mainstream coin dealers active as in later years.

Thanks for your clarification
boston

Respectable Dealers Acting As Fences ?

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