Respectable Dealers Acting As Fences ?

1630Boston

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abcde12345

"It is impossible for so many dealers to make a living out of collectors legitimately."

Damn, that's brutally cold.

1630Boston

coinsarefun

Interesting to say the least

jmlanzaf

Hmmm....not sure what to make of that. Certainly some dealers try harder than others to ascertain title.

If by "fence" you include people who have unwittingly sold stolen material, then every dealer has been a fence. Right now I have a small collection in my possession that I'm pretty sure was stolen. But the police told me to keep it. Well, the police told the dealer I got it from to keep it.

The story goes:

There was a robbery from a fairly large hoard. The hoard was uncatalogued. A local dealer bought material from the person later charged with the theft.

In NY State, dealers have to post purchases on a website for as long as 14 days to make sure they aren't stolen. It depends on the jurisdiction, it was 10 days for this dealer. On the 11th day, he sold the collection to me. On the 15th day, the crime was discovered.

The police went to the dealer who went to me. I returned the material to the dealer. The police arrived with the victim who could only prove ownership of a small number of coins in the hoard. The police seized those and told the dealer he could keep the others. The dealer sold those back to me.

Now, were these items "fenced". All laws were followed and essentially legal title passed to me even though they may have been stolen. Given that they came from an alleged thief who was arrested, they were likely stolen from someone even if not the person who came forward. But after the 10 day hold, title legally passes.

1630Boston

Interesting position to be in @jmlanzaf
I do not know the legal answer.

abcde12345

I was under the impression legal title can never be passed on stolen property.

yspsales

Would love to hear from dealers how to navigate this dilemma.

Does it affect offers they make?

What is the biggest loss incurred?

Surely they would have the most to lose in terms of reputation, career impact... etc

TomB

Certainly!

TomB

Oh, you wrote "Fences"...not "Fencers"...

panexpoguy

@jmlanzaf said:
Hmmm....not sure what to make of that. Certainly some dealers try harder than others to ascertain title.

If by "fence" you include people who have unwittingly sold stolen material, then every dealer has been a fence. Right now I have a small collection in my possession that I'm pretty sure was stolen. But the police told me to keep it. Well, the police told the dealer I got it from to keep it.

The story goes:

There was a robbery from a fairly large hoard. The hoard was uncatalogued. A local dealer bought material from the person later charged with the theft.

In NY State, dealers have to post purchases on a website for as long as 14 days to make sure they aren't stolen. It depends on the jurisdiction, it was 10 days for this dealer. On the 11th day, he sold the collection to me. On the 15th day, the crime was discovered.

The police went to the dealer who went to me. I returned the material to the dealer. The police arrived with the victim who could only prove ownership of a small number of coins in the hoard. The police seized those and told the dealer he could keep the others. The dealer sold those back to me.

Now, were these items "fenced". All laws were followed and essentially legal title passed to me even though they may have been stolen. Given that they came from an alleged thief who was arrested, they were likely stolen from someone even if not the person who came forward. But after the 10 day hold, title legally passes.

If a dealer follows the letter and spirit of the law then they are not a fence. A fence doesn’t suspect items they trade may be stolen, they know they have been stolen. In your story, the rules were followed by all parties. Maybe you trust your gut and walk away if a transaction makes you uneasy, but the presence of suspicion is not evidence the coins are stolen. You have to trade to make your living.

jmlanzaf

@abcde12345 said:
I was under the impression legal title can never be passed on stolen property.

They couldn't be determined to be stolen property because the victim of the threat couldn't identify the items nor prove title.

abcde12345

Thanks for the clarification.

jmlanzaf

@panexpoguy said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Hmmm....not sure what to make of that. Certainly some dealers try harder than others to ascertain title.

If by "fence" you include people who have unwittingly sold stolen material, then every dealer has been a fence. Right now I have a small collection in my possession that I'm pretty sure was stolen. But the police told me to keep it. Well, the police told the dealer I got it from to keep it.

The story goes:

There was a robbery from a fairly large hoard. The hoard was uncatalogued. A local dealer bought material from the person later charged with the theft.

In NY State, dealers have to post purchases on a website for as long as 14 days to make sure they aren't stolen. It depends on the jurisdiction, it was 10 days for this dealer. On the 11th day, he sold the collection to me. On the 15th day, the crime was discovered.

The police went to the dealer who went to me. I returned the material to the dealer. The police arrived with the victim who could only prove ownership of a small number of coins in the hoard. The police seized those and told the dealer he could keep the others. The dealer sold those back to me.

Now, were these items "fenced". All laws were followed and essentially legal title passed to me even though they may have been stolen. Given that they came from an alleged thief who was arrested, they were likely stolen from someone even if not the person who came forward. But after the 10 day hold, title legally passes.

If a dealer follows the letter and spirit of the law then they are not a fence. A fence doesn’t suspect items they trade may be stolen, they know they have been stolen. In your story, the rules were followed by all parties. Maybe you trust your gut and walk away if a transaction makes you uneasy, but the presence of suspicion is not evidence the coins are stolen. You have to trade to make your living.

I never really felt guilty about it because there was no way for the victim to establish ownership and recover the items. I did, however, feel very sorry for him. The coins I ended up with were mostly bullion, as was most of his hoard. But he lost a LOT of coins. It turned out the kid who rented a room from him was slowly stealing small piles from the "coin room". Apparently it had been going on for months and the kid (20-something) was selling them all over town so as not to raise a suspicion.

We always suspected that maybe there was a romantic relationship there because the victim actually reluctantly filed charges and the police said they felt there was something he wasn't telling them.

I don't know what ultimately happened to the alleged culprit.

tokenpro

Supposedly somewhere in the years of accumulated papers, records and research I have a detailed list of the Civil War tokens stolen from Doc Aqua -- quite a few of us watched closely for several years but not a piece ever surfaced. I purposely use that term as (IIRC) the main lead that the police had was that the collection ended up in a river, Civil War, trade tokens and more. I was not aware (or don't remember hearing) that part of Newman's CWTs were stolen as well.

Along

@abcde12345 said:
I was under the impression legal title can never be passed on stolen property.

Have to prove it was stolen first?

PerryHall

@abcde12345 said:
I was under the impression legal title can never be passed on stolen property.

That was overturned in the famous court case of Finders Keepers versus Losers Weepers.

ricko

Certainly slabbed coins can be identified... However, raw coins often - actually mostly - cannot be identified - unless clearly part of an itemized group that were stolen. Then they will be deemed stolen per the association with the other coins if previously noted in the list of missing property. Cheers, RickO

Zoins

@tokenpro said:
Supposedly somewhere in the years of accumulated papers, records and research I have a detailed list of the Civil War tokens stolen from Doc Aqua -- quite a few of us watched closely for several years but not a piece ever surfaced. I purposely use that term as (IIRC) the main lead that the police had was that the collection ended up in a river, Civil War, trade tokens and more. I was not aware (or don't remember hearing) that part of Newman's CWTs were stolen as well.

How could Doc Aqua's tokens be identified? Are there photos or detailed descriptions?

Lots of tokens are coming to the market all the time.

1630Boston

It seems like "Newman" here is asking Herman if he has any of Newman's stolen items?

BuffaloIronTail

@1630Boston said:
Interesting position to be in @jmlanzaf
I do not know the legal answer.

I am also "On the Fence" about the whole matter.

Pete

tokenpro

@1630Boston said:
It seems like "Newman" here is asking Herman if he has any of Newman's stolen items?

Make that "if he had" -- I believe that the postal conversation began after Doc Aqua's collection was stolen and notice was published in Coin World, NN and the CWTS Journal which may have alerted Eric Newman and initiated the exchange. Newman was looking for any potential trail left from Newman's theft. Dr. Herman Aqua was a straight shooter (& a good guy) and the CWTS was a pretty tight group at that time with little involvement of the larger auction companies & not as many mainstream coin dealers active as in later years.

1630Boston

@tokenpro said:

@1630Boston said:

Make that "if he had" -- I believe that the postal conversation began after Doc Aqua's collection was stolen and notice was published in Coin World, NN and the CWTS Journal which may have alerted Eric Newman and initiated the exchange. Newman was looking for any potential trail left from Newman's theft. Dr. Herman Aqua was a straight shooter (& a good guy) and the CWTS was a pretty tight group at that time with little involvement of the larger auction companies & not as many mainstream coin dealers active as in later years.

Thanks for your clarification
boston