09S-VDB on ebay, seller claims its GENUINE your input PLEASE!

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 5:28PM

Hi, its been a long time sense I've posted on here. But several months back I went through a deal with guy and his Dad's stash of what turned out to be counterfeit coins.
Around that same time frame I ended up ALSO purchasing a 1909S-VDB that with the help of the people here I found out it was a FAKE!
I'm just now getting my money back for that RAW deal, thanks to everyone here!
Anyway, I started getting back in the market for another GENUINE 09S-VDB to fill in this final whole in my collection.
Yep, I'm back on ebay, but I'm trying to stay with certified PCGS dealers for an actual buy, Bla....bla.......
But that still puts me scrolling through other listings and BOY! I've seen several counterfeits, not being an expert I've not reported any to Ebay, but I did question a couple of sellers asking for better pictures, and I wasn't and expert but the coin was questionable.
Now, to the point LoL!
Here is one that a seller has up and they HAVE a massive amount of positive feedback, I mentioned to him that the pictures make his coin look like a possible "Cast Counterfeit" I wouldn't buy this coin for a nickle, on a dare. He nicely informed that he had inspected it for TWO key counterfeit details, Bla... bla..... I thanked him and moved on.
He actually has really good pictures of the coin, here's the link to the listings,
Looking at this coin reminds my of looking at a 1977 Chevy 350 Engine Block "CAST"
Take a look, is this not a Sand Cast counterfeit?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Small-Cent-CHOICE-AU-FREE-SHIPPING-E162-ALXR/143933929296?hash=item2183217750:g:6R0AAOSwSMRgFeJ6
Mark

MsMorrisine · February 3, 2021 5:36PM

looks like a real coin that would wind up in a Details grade holder.

try @ThePennyLady for a real one without the issue of "issues."

PerryHall · February 3, 2021 5:38PM

That looks like solder around the mintmark.

MsMorrisine · February 3, 2021 5:40PM

ooops

did not even stop to check the mint mark.

291fifth · February 3, 2021 5:48PM

Repeat after me: I will not look at any more raw 1909-S VDB Lincolns. I will only look at 1909-@ VDB Lincolns that have been slabbed by a major TPG.

MsMorrisine · February 3, 2021 5:53PM

mm seems to be in a plausible location, but that is not a coin to buy.

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 5:56PM

@291fifth said:
Repeat after me: I will not look at any more raw 1909-S VDB Lincolns. I will only look at 1909-@ VDB Lincolns that have been slabbed by a major TPG.

Okay, how about this slabbed one?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-1C-WHEAT-CENT-KEYDATE-SAN-FRANCISCO-COIN-PCGS-XF-DETAILS/164171858121?hash=item263967c0c9:g:mAwAAOSw1Qxfz8T1

JBK · February 3, 2021 5:59PM

I don't like it no matter what is going on with it.

If you want a 1909svdb, buy it in a slab only. Period.

MsMorrisine · February 3, 2021 6:00PM

I would try to save money buying a lower grade problem free coin than a "Details" coin

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 6:02PM

@PerryHall said:
That looks like solder around the mintmark.

Well, the center dot of the V.D.B looks positioned correctly, but! look at the ED in united how the metal looks to have exploded, the entire texture of the coin to me looks CAST. Do the close up view. I could be wrong, I've been that before LoL!

jmlanzaf · February 3, 2021 6:03PM

@291fifth said:
Repeat after me: I will not look at any more raw 1909-S VDB Lincolns. I will only look at 1909-@ VDB Lincolns that have been slabbed by a major TPG.

This!

Especially after getting burned before, you clearly don't have a good enough eye. It is hard enough for an amateur to tell a good counterfeit in hand. When it's only photos on the internet...why bother?

MsMorrisine · February 3, 2021 6:08PM

the seller says "Choice" in the auction title.

it is far, far from choice.

something was wrong with and on the surface of that first one then it was "processed" to make it look better.

WAYNEAS · February 3, 2021 6:09PM

Don't Don't and Don't

tommy44 · February 3, 2021 6:12PM

If it isn't cast it looks like it may have been buried for a while and harshly cleaned, pass

As others have said, buy one authenticated and graded by a major third party grading service. Also, don't settle for a "details" coin either. There are plenty of nice ones out there in all grades and one that will make you happy will come along eventually.

WAYNEAS · February 3, 2021 6:15PM

pass

MasonG · February 3, 2021 6:16PM

Just a quick look, but the mm shape & position and VDB aren't immediately suspect, it could be genuine. Even if so, it's endured some sort of environmental damage for sure and is not "Choice AU".

ThePennyLady · February 3, 2021 6:43PM

Besides the issues with the planchet and other problems mentioned, the bar in the B in VDB looks straight. In a true 1909-S VDB, the bar is always slanted upward.

My advice to all collectors, if you are not very familiar with the diagnostics of all the key dates in any series you collect, buy a certified one by any of the top tier third party grading services. When choosing a key date coin, I also recommend buying a problem-free coin in the highest grade you can afford, even if it's in a lower grade with just honest wear. It's not worth buying a problem coin, much less a key-date problem coin.

bolivarshagnasty · February 3, 2021 6:44PM

Severely corroded. Not much value there even if it is genuine.

jessewvu · February 3, 2021 6:46PM

I bought a 1909s vsb pcgs ms 66rd once and it arrived with verdigris on it. Sent it back and never looked for another.

Namvet69 · February 3, 2021 6:47PM

Danger Will Robinson! I do not like the pitted surfaces at all. No way it's AU or XF or........ Peace Roy

MasonG · February 3, 2021 6:53PM

@ThePennyLady said:
Besides the issues with the planchet and other problems mentioned, the bar in the B in VDB looks straight. In a true 1909-S VDB, the bar is always slanted upward.

Maybe it's the lighting combined with my monitor, but it looks slanted to me.

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 6:59PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@291fifth said:
Repeat after me: I will not look at any more raw 1909-S VDB Lincolns. I will only look at 1909-@ VDB Lincolns that have been slabbed by a major TPG.

This!

Especially after getting burned before, you clearly don't have a good enough eye. It is hard enough for an amateur to tell a good counterfeit in hand. When it's only photos on the internet...why bother?

Well, keep in mind that I had NO possible intentions AT ALL on buying that coin! It just caught my eye as something NOT to buy, it wasn't slabbed, the seller list it as CHOICE! I thought differently.
Next, there is NO real coin dealers within a hundred miles of of me period, so, no matter what I do to get a coin, I'm on the internet for the search. I've contacted one seller who I found was a certified PCGS dealer who has a slabbed graded one, I'm waiting for a return contact from them.
You, ask "why bother" does that mean you feel that I don't deserve to even own a penny collection, or I should never ever attempt to fill the last KEY slot in my penny collection, just toss the rest of the 30 year plus collection in the trash. There is only three to four possible counterfeits in the basic Lincoln collection. On the one I got BURNED on, I drove over 100 miles to a CERTIFIED PCGS coin dealer and had him look at it, he had the owner look at it, they had some woman look at it, they ALL said they couldn't TELL! it would have to be sent off to be graded and certified! and they had the coin IN HAND, with strong detail!!.
Now, in the six months sense then I have learn a few things about the 09S-VDB and I've had more than ONE coin expert tell me that some of these are SO good (well done) that they HAVE NO DOUBT that some have gotten through SOME grading/slabbed processes. I've also ran across other EXPERT coin forum's that had a collection of what they claimed to be "Cast" 09S-VDB" They went on to say that how people get fooled with these is they look at the normal counterfeit key points, they said that with cast counterfeits you can't go by that. They said that most all counterfeits of this coin are retooled other Lincoln cents, BUT! the cast ones or the cast mold/form they used, is made from a Genuine 09S-VDB, so, they're not altered 09P-VDB (adding an S mint mark). So, that means that in the case of a CAST 09S-VDB the cast carries the correct mint mark & location, it also picks the correct middle dot location in the V.D.B.
So, just for conversion I thought I would see what the folks here thought of it being a possible "Cast Counterfeit" I have no interest in that coin, if its not a CAST counterfeit it looks to much like Moon rock for me to put it in my collection LoL.
When I do the Zoom view the entire surface of the coin is bubbly, EVERYWHERE! not one of over 300 Lincoln cents in my collection looks like they're made from a Moon Rock LoL!

jmlanzaf · February 3, 2021 7:03PM

@MarkW63 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@291fifth said:
Repeat after me: I will not look at any more raw 1909-S VDB Lincolns. I will only look at 1909-@ VDB Lincolns that have been slabbed by a major TPG.

This!

Especially after getting burned before, you clearly don't have a good enough eye. It is hard enough for an amateur to tell a good counterfeit in hand. When it's only photos on the internet...why bother?

Well, keep in mind that I had NO possible intentions AT ALL on buying that coin! It just caught my eye as something NOT to buy, it wasn't slabbed, the seller list it as CHOICE! I thought differently.
Next, there is NO real coin dealers within a hundred miles of of me period, so, no matter what I do to get a coin, I'm on the internet for the search. I've contacted one seller who I found was a certified PCGS dealer who has a slabbed graded one, I'm waiting for a return contact from them.
You, ask "why bother" does that mean you feel that I don't deserve to even own a penny collection, or I should never ever attempt to fill the last KEY slot in my penny collection, just toss the rest of the 30 year plus collection in the trash. There is only three to four possible counterfeits in the basic Lincoln collection. On the one I got BURNED on, I drove over 100 miles to a CERTIFIED PCGS coin dealer and had him look at it, he had the owner look at it, they had some woman look at it, they ALL said they couldn't TELL! it would have to be sent off to be graded and certified! and they had the coin IN HAND, with strong detail!!.
Now, in the six months sense then I have learn a few things about the 09S-VDB and I've had more than ONE coin expert tell me that some of these are SO good (well done) that they HAVE NO DOUBT that some have gotten through SOME grading/slabbed processes. I've also ran across other EXPERT coin forum's that had a collection of what they claimed to be "Cast" 09S-VDB" They went on to say that how people get fooled with these is they look at the normal counterfeit key points, they said that with cast counterfeits you can't go by that. They said that most all counterfeits of this coin are retooled other Lincoln cents, BUT! the cast ones or the cast mold/form they used, is made from a Genuine 09S-VDB, so, they're not altered 09P-VDB (adding an S mint mark). So, that means that in the case of a CAST 09S-VDB the cast carries the correct mint mark & location, it also picks the correct middle dot location in the V.D.B.
So, just for conversion I thought I would see what the folks here thought of it being a possible "Cast Counterfeit" I have no interest in that coin, if its not a CAST counterfeit it looks to much like Moon rock for me to put it in my collection LoL.
When I do the Zoom view the entire surface of the coin is bubbly, EVERYWHERE! not one of over 300 Lincoln cents in my collection looks like they're made from a Moon Rock LoL!

Just agreeing with another comment. "Why bother?" refers to raw not your cent collection. You are taking that comment way too personally.

MsMorrisine · February 3, 2021 7:07PM

"why bother" even considering that coin. but now we know that you know it is a problem that is good to know.

PipestonePete · February 3, 2021 7:35PM

Here's my counterfeit which I have had for 40 years.

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 7:50PM

@tommy44 said:
If it isn't cast it looks like it may have been buried for a while and harshly cleaned, pass

As others have said, buy one authenticated and graded by a major third party grading service. Also, don't settle for a "details" coin either. There are plenty of nice ones out there in all grades and one that will make you happy will come along eventually.

Thanks.
I've metal detected sense around 1981 or 82? and I've dug my share of corrode, cleaned pennies, many was how I got started with my penny collection, I have NOW upgraded all of those, so now I'm adding Proofs, to which I have all of them from 1951 through 2021.
I have all 20 of the minted 2009, in UC, the Mint Satin's, the S-Proofs, I've even got a 1955 RPM in near UC. I've got the SMS set in UC, I've got the 82 coppers in UC, I've got the 43 set in UC, I've got the 60's set small & large date all UC, the 1909S I bought was slabbed/graded although I broke it out of the slab to insert it into the main album. I've checked out the attributes of my 14D to pretty much satisfaction.
If I can just pull of a decent find on a Genuine 09S VDB then the rest will be smooth sailing with just working through other upgrades. It seem that the 09S VDB is bringing more money now than it did just six months ago. There is people FOR REAL placing bids up to $600 on an ebay listing for an 09S-VDB with NO PICTURE of the coin at all, they have a picture of a 1909-P that's it, then in the description the seller states "Buyer will receive a Nice 1909S-VDB" that's IT!!
this same seller has FOUR of these same listings!! I'm shocked they have any bidders at all!!!!

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 7:58PM

@MsMorrisine said:
"why bother" even considering that coin. but now we know that you know it is a problem that is good to know.

Well, I was NEVER considering the Moon Rock coin at ALL! I stated that I wasn't considering it. I stated that to me I felt like the seller MIGHT have a CAST counterfeit as I saw it, so for interest I thought I'd see what others here (experts) would say about it being REAL, FAKE, or possibly even CAST!
Its still a learning curve for me, I made a call, some I'm here to LEARN as I feel that's what forums like this is for.
Being nice about the coin, The Dam* thing looks to fake (CAST) to be on ebay asking over a $1,000 for it

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 8:05PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@MarkW63 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@291fifth said:
Repeat after me: I will not look at any more raw 1909-S VDB Lincolns. I will only look at 1909-@ VDB Lincolns that have been slabbed by a major TPG.

This!

Especially after getting burned before, you clearly don't have a good enough eye. It is hard enough for an amateur to tell a good counterfeit in hand. When it's only photos on the internet...why bother?

Well, keep in mind that I had NO possible intentions AT ALL on buying that coin! It just caught my eye as something NOT to buy, it wasn't slabbed, the seller list it as CHOICE! I thought differently.
Next, there is NO real coin dealers within a hundred miles of of me period, so, no matter what I do to get a coin, I'm on the internet for the search. I've contacted one seller who I found was a certified PCGS dealer who has a slabbed graded one, I'm waiting for a return contact from them.
You, ask "why bother" does that mean you feel that I don't deserve to even own a penny collection, or I should never ever attempt to fill the last KEY slot in my penny collection, just toss the rest of the 30 year plus collection in the trash. There is only three to four possible counterfeits in the basic Lincoln collection. On the one I got BURNED on, I drove over 100 miles to a CERTIFIED PCGS coin dealer and had him look at it, he had the owner look at it, they had some woman look at it, they ALL said they couldn't TELL! it would have to be sent off to be graded and certified! and they had the coin IN HAND, with strong detail!!.
Now, in the six months sense then I have learn a few things about the 09S-VDB and I've had more than ONE coin expert tell me that some of these are SO good (well done) that they HAVE NO DOUBT that some have gotten through SOME grading/slabbed processes. I've also ran across other EXPERT coin forum's that had a collection of what they claimed to be "Cast" 09S-VDB" They went on to say that how people get fooled with these is they look at the normal counterfeit key points, they said that with cast counterfeits you can't go by that. They said that most all counterfeits of this coin are retooled other Lincoln cents, BUT! the cast ones or the cast mold/form they used, is made from a Genuine 09S-VDB, so, they're not altered 09P-VDB (adding an S mint mark). So, that means that in the case of a CAST 09S-VDB the cast carries the correct mint mark & location, it also picks the correct middle dot location in the V.D.B.
So, just for conversion I thought I would see what the folks here thought of it being a possible "Cast Counterfeit" I have no interest in that coin, if its not a CAST counterfeit it looks to much like Moon rock for me to put it in my collection LoL.
When I do the Zoom view the entire surface of the coin is bubbly, EVERYWHERE! not one of over 300 Lincoln cents in my collection looks like they're made from a Moon Rock LoL!

Just agreeing with another comment. "Why bother?" refers to raw not your cent collection. You are taking that comment way too personally.

I think it was probably this part of your quote "you clearly don't have a good enough eye" I guess I read that and the "why brother" as I wasn't human enough to own a collection of pet rocks. Sorry, I should no that different people from different parts of the country has different ways of making comments that others can misinterpret. You meant well, I just read it wrong.!
Thanks for your comment!!
I'm here to gather knowledge far more than I expect to supply knowledge!

MasonG · February 3, 2021 8:12PM

@MarkW63 said:
Being nice about the coin, The Dam* thing looks to fake (CAST) to be on ebay asking over a $1,000 for it

If it's genuine, it could possibly be worth $1,000 even in a details holder. I sold a graded VF details 09-S VDB for $850 ten years ago. Even longer ago than that, I sold the coin below for $350.

Just sayin'.

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 8:18PM

@bolivarshagnasty said:
Severely corroded. Not much value there even if it is genuine.

That's what I was thinking when I saw it, it looks like its made out of a Moon Rock (Sandstone)
Seems to me I remember you from several months back, I was the one that posted several SEVERAL pictures of Slabbed Silver VERY RARE silver dollars, that were ALL FAKE! and certain people on here accused me of being a counterfeiter!! Remember?
After that WHOLE deal backup with that DUD 09S VDB I bought, I guessed I folded up my collection in hopelessness, I had to change out computers along the way and I lost the information to this forum, didn't have a link to it, couldn't remember which coin forum is even was!
And, now that I'm getting my money back, and I've recovering from that I'm back at ONE MORE ATTEMPT at a 09S VDB. But I had give on finding my way back here. So, I picked a coin forum out from an internet search, started to register as a new user, got a message that my email was in use by another user, clicked the I forgot my login, got a new password and PRESTO! I'm back.

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 8:31PM

@ThePennyLady said:
Besides the issues with the planchet and other problems mentioned, the bar in the B in VDB looks straight. In a true 1909-S VDB, the bar is always slanted upward.

My advice to all collectors, if you are not very familiar with the diagnostics of all the key dates in any series you collect, buy a certified one by any of the top tier third party grading services. When choosing a key date coin, I also recommend buying a problem-free coin in the highest grade you can afford, even if it's in a lower grade with just honest wear. It's not worth buying a problem coin, much less a key-date problem coin.

Thank you for dropping by.
Do you know of a "Chuck's Coin" in California?
He claims to be a certified PCGS dealer (among others) he claims to have been in business for over 60 years.
If he has a PCGS graded (slabbed), "Cleaned XF" 09S-VDB (Known what cleaned means) would you consider the coin at lest being Genuine enough to purchase?
I'm as much concerned about "Counterfeit Grading Slabs" as I am counterfeit coins.
Again, thanks for your input.

MsMorrisine · February 3, 2021 8:36PM

@MarkW63 said:

Thank you for dropping by.
Do you know of a "Chuck's Coin" in California?
He claims to be a certified PCGS dealer (among others) he claims to have been in business for over 60 years.
If he has a PCGS graded (slabbed), "Cleaned XF" 09S-VDB (Known what cleaned means) would you consider the coin at lest being Genuine enough to purchase?
I'm as much concerned about "Counterfeit Grading Slabs" as I am counterfeit coins.
Again, thanks for your input.

The Penny Lady is a coin dealer herself.

ThePennyLady · February 3, 2021 8:46PM

Mark, I don't know them, and again, I would recommend NOT buying a problem key date coin, buy a lower graded problem-free one if you can't afford the higher grade.

ifthevamzarockin · February 3, 2021 8:50PM

@MarkW63
"from several months back, I was the one that posted several SEVERAL pictures of Slabbed Silver VERY RARE silver dollars, that were ALL FAKE!"

I remember the thread.
So what did your friend say about it & what did he do with the coins?

abcde12345 · February 3, 2021 9:00PM

The above 1909-S VDB in a PCGS cleaned holder didn't look too bad for $900.
Otherwise, stick with a problem-free coin. You will be happier in the long run.

MsMorrisine · February 3, 2021 9:14PM

@abcde12345 said:

Otherwise, stick with a problem-free coin. You will be happier in the long run.

this

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 9:19PM

@ifthevamzarockin said:
@MarkW63
"from several months back, I was the one that posted several SEVERAL pictures of Slabbed Silver VERY RARE silver dollars, that were ALL FAKE!"

I remember the thread.
So what did your friend say about it & what did he do with the coins?

In both are sunk ships of high hopes, he said he turned them into some cheap belt buckles! (cast them out as junk)
Mark

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 9:22PM

@MsMorrisine said:

@MarkW63 said:

Thank you for dropping by.
Do you know of a "Chuck's Coin" in California?
He claims to be a certified PCGS dealer (among others) he claims to have been in business for over 60 years.
If he has a PCGS graded (slabbed), "Cleaned XF" 09S-VDB (Known what cleaned means) would you consider the coin at lest being Genuine enough to purchase?
I'm as much concerned about "Counterfeit Grading Slabs" as I am counterfeit coins.
Again, thanks for your input.

The Penny Lady is a coin dealer herself.

Thanks for that input, I'll see about looking up her dealer ship!
Mark

lkeigwin · February 3, 2021 9:32PM

Looks genuine but corroded to me.

I echo those who say buy a graded one.
Lance.

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 9:40PM

@MasonG said:

@MarkW63 said:
Being nice about the coin, The Dam* thing looks to fake (CAST) to be on ebay asking over a $1,000 for it

If it's genuine, it could possibly be worth $1,000 even in a details holder. I sold a graded VF details 09-S VDB for $850 ten years ago. Even longer ago than that, I sold the coin below for $350.

Just sayin'.

Well, yours looks to have what I seen called "Environmental Damage" LoL! its looks like countless copper/bronze cents that I've dug up metal detecting, but yours still looks to be a Genuine coin, that moon rock looking just jumped at me with, it may not even be a real coin LoL! I can't imagine coming across it from anywhere and investing over $80.00 buck to have it graded. Its not really pitted, its looks to have a total overall look of a sand cast, it even has places that look to have had grains of sand come lose from the form the left bubbles at the surface.
I mention in one post here about running across another forum where they were discussing the very issue around finding CAST 09S-VDB counterfeits, here is one of the images they were talking and laughing about.
Look at the hole coin, but that the lettering in "In God We Trust" you can see the casting grain impressions.
This was the why the one on ebay caught my attention, its looks the same way!, its doesn't look eroded, the texture is to well dispersed about the coin. Whatever the case I wouldn't want it in displayed in my collection LoL!

ifthevamzarockin · February 3, 2021 9:45PM

@MarkW63 "Thanks for that input, I'll see about looking up her dealer ship!"

.
She replied here, you could just send her a PM letting her know your grade and price range.
If she doesn't have one in stock I'm sure she could locate one for you.

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 10:01PM

@lkeigwin said:
Looks genuine but corroded to me.

I echo those who say buy a graded one.
Lance.

I used similar pictures to compare them, but I went back and read more info about the Casted Lincoln's and they stated that when they're CAST a genuine REAL coin is used to make the CAST so, the finished CAST coins carries all the markers of the coin that was used to FORM the CAST mold. So, items are ALL properly sized and located, its just a CAST replica of a Genuine coin. Where as most other counterfeits are modified version of a real comparable less rare coin, or to say an altered similar coin, most common (I'm learning now) is to add an S mint mark to an existing 1909-P VDB, but I found this information (picture) to be helpful about spotting the difference in the V.D.B of an 09S-VDB and a 09-P VDB, for the longest time I didn't know this either.
But, so, to make a CAST mold using a genuine 09S-VDB would mean if well done, the finished casted COIN would also carry the correct identifying common markers, it's just that the sharp lines would be muddy, and have a GRAINY sand cast finish overall. And that's just internet searched information I've collected in the past few weeks.
If the below image is copied righted I didn't know it! I do not mean to break any rules here!!!!

MarkW63 · February 3, 2021 10:11PM

@lkeigwin said:
Looks genuine but corroded to me.

I echo those who say buy a graded one.
Lance.

Look at the top right leg of the V do you notice that little bead or mound of metal just right of its tip! That's not on a die struck 09S-VDB. So, placement is correct, position is correct, the defining detail sucks for sure.

ifthevamzarockin · February 3, 2021 10:12PM

@lkeigwin "Looks genuine but corroded to me."

That was my first impression too. After looking again I still agree.

@MarkW63 I think the cast look to the surfaces are from corrosion, It looks like a dug coin that was improperly cleaned. I would be willing to bet it is underweight because several surface layers have been removed.

MarkW63 · February 4, 2021 12:24AM

Here is one for practice for me, NO I'm not looking at buying this coin, its not on my shopping list. But I ran down the ebay search for some newly listed 09S-VDB and I saw this one. I'm trying to learn, I think I have a decent eye for detail, its just not trained in the background information of counterfeit coins.
So, I saw this one.
It looks to have good detail!
Decent finish!
Its has an S mint mark that is questionable to my untrained eye!
But, when I look at the reverse the middle dot of the VDB is in the wrong location for the San Fransisco Mint!
It is in the correct location for the Philly mint used on the 1909P-VDB!
So, I'm calling it a counterfeit! (most likely an altered 1909P-VDB)
Here is the link, take a look and see if you feel I called this one correctly.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1909-S-VDB-LINCOLN-CENT-PENNY-HIGH-GRADE-NO-RESERVE-SAN-FRANCISCO-MINT/133655458093?hash=item1f1e7c712d:g:rM0AAOSwQndgGyAt
Mark

ifthevamzarockin · February 4, 2021 12:38AM

@MarkW63 So, I'm calling it a counterfeit! (most likely an altered 1909P-VDB)

Agree it is a counterfeit....good job spotting it.
I don't think it is an altered 1909P it is most likely from overseas.

MarkW63 · February 4, 2021 12:43AM

Let me try one more ebay practice sample I found (No I'm not looking at buying this one either) its just a test to see if I catching on to at lest some of signs of a counterfeit.
This is different in that the VDB and the dots, the cross bar in the B looks darn close!
But what's with the MINT Mark, the bottom serif, to large, to round, also the top serif looks to have to much of a lower tail on it, then I'm thinking what's with the round DOT all around the Mint Mark, like maybe some tooling going on around.
The VDB I'd pass, the Mint Mark I'd count for to questionable for anyone to spend any real money on it, likely a FAKE.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cent-Wheat-Penny-Very-good-shape/154315603952?hash=item23eded3ff0:g:bPAAAOSw5RJgGKu9

davewesen · February 4, 2021 3:34AM

the first one looks like it was bent and then straighten in a press between a couple layers of leather - I can see leather type patterns

Namvet69 · February 4, 2021 5:30AM

@MarkW63 Good morning, I recall walking a big show and arriving in front of The Penny Ladys table. What a feast for the eyes. Charmys website is worth visiting and saving. Good luck. Peace Roy

jmlanzaf · February 4, 2021 5:38AM

@MarkW63 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MarkW63 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@291fifth said:
Repeat after me: I will not look at any more raw 1909-S VDB Lincolns. I will only look at 1909-@ VDB Lincolns that have been slabbed by a major TPG.

This!

Especially after getting burned before, you clearly don't have a good enough eye. It is hard enough for an amateur to tell a good counterfeit in hand. When it's only photos on the internet...why bother?

Well, keep in mind that I had NO possible intentions AT ALL on buying that coin! It just caught my eye as something NOT to buy, it wasn't slabbed, the seller list it as CHOICE! I thought differently.
Next, there is NO real coin dealers within a hundred miles of of me period, so, no matter what I do to get a coin, I'm on the internet for the search. I've contacted one seller who I found was a certified PCGS dealer who has a slabbed graded one, I'm waiting for a return contact from them.
You, ask "why bother" does that mean you feel that I don't deserve to even own a penny collection, or I should never ever attempt to fill the last KEY slot in my penny collection, just toss the rest of the 30 year plus collection in the trash. There is only three to four possible counterfeits in the basic Lincoln collection. On the one I got BURNED on, I drove over 100 miles to a CERTIFIED PCGS coin dealer and had him look at it, he had the owner look at it, they had some woman look at it, they ALL said they couldn't TELL! it would have to be sent off to be graded and certified! and they had the coin IN HAND, with strong detail!!.
Now, in the six months sense then I have learn a few things about the 09S-VDB and I've had more than ONE coin expert tell me that some of these are SO good (well done) that they HAVE NO DOUBT that some have gotten through SOME grading/slabbed processes. I've also ran across other EXPERT coin forum's that had a collection of what they claimed to be "Cast" 09S-VDB" They went on to say that how people get fooled with these is they look at the normal counterfeit key points, they said that with cast counterfeits you can't go by that. They said that most all counterfeits of this coin are retooled other Lincoln cents, BUT! the cast ones or the cast mold/form they used, is made from a Genuine 09S-VDB, so, they're not altered 09P-VDB (adding an S mint mark). So, that means that in the case of a CAST 09S-VDB the cast carries the correct mint mark & location, it also picks the correct middle dot location in the V.D.B.
So, just for conversion I thought I would see what the folks here thought of it being a possible "Cast Counterfeit" I have no interest in that coin, if its not a CAST counterfeit it looks to much like Moon rock for me to put it in my collection LoL.
When I do the Zoom view the entire surface of the coin is bubbly, EVERYWHERE! not one of over 300 Lincoln cents in my collection looks like they're made from a Moon Rock LoL!

Just agreeing with another comment. "Why bother?" refers to raw not your cent collection. You are taking that comment way too personally.

I think it was probably this part of your quote "you clearly don't have a good enough eye" I guess I read that and the "why brother" as I wasn't human enough to own a collection of pet rocks. Sorry, I should no that different people from different parts of the country has different ways of making comments that others can misinterpret. You meant well, I just read it wrong.!
Thanks for your comment!!
I'm here to gather knowledge far more than I expect to supply knowledge!

Sorry, I didn't mean that as an insult. I wasn't even suggesting that my eye is better than yours. There are coins that everyone struggles with. I can't tell a 69 from a 70 in most cases. I don't trust myself on 16-D or S-VDB coins from photographs as it is too easy to miss die markers. Some people are much better than I at such things. I don't even look at raw S-VDB coins or 16-D dimes on the internet, as I really can't be sure unless it is an obvious fake. That's all I meant by "why bother?". There's no upside to taking the chance.

MsMorrisine · February 4, 2021 8:01AM

with the second, it has that period in the right place. it would seem unnecessary to tool the S or place an S.

(to confuse thigs, has anyone considered a faked S and a Faked period?)

Anyway, that second one I'll leave to more experienced people, but I do not like the look of the surfaces and suspect it is a total fake like this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1909-S-VDB-LINCOLN-CENT-PENNY-HIGH-GRADE-NO-RESERVE-SAN-FRANCISCO-MINT/133655458093?hash=item1f1e7c712d:g:rM0AAOSwQndgGyAt

and what you are seeing on the very first one in this thread is pitting. cast counterfeits have pimples. one is into the coin and the other is out of the coin.

09S-VDB on ebay, seller claims its GENUINE your input PLEASE!

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