Slabbing a copper plated 1943 cent....what would PCGS do?
ambro51
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Soooooo.....Just Curious??? What would they do with this? It’s “ Genuine”, it’s “damaged”...but I’m seeing nothing in the rulebook that would preclude this in a slab. Crazy? Of Course!
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I believe they’d give it a details grade, “Surface Plated”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That would be quite interesting, probably be a Wild ebay Auction run!
I'd guess they would kick it back and not in a holder.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Interesting question, but since it is an altered coin, I would be surprised if they slabbed it. Cheers, RickO
With proper labeling ... I don't see why not.
See here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303770847459?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=303770847459&targetid=935065067507&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9026920&poi=&campaignid=10455978145&mkgroupid=104612009660&rlsatarget=aud-412677883135:pla-935065067507&abcId=2146002&merchantid=6296724&gclid=Cj0KCQiAkuP9BRCkARIsAKGLE8WyXAmjBfbQ2k_dCDOKQqOtSxpIhX1uBHWlUZ7tG_0j9LhwkXRrtxcaAizREALw_wcB
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well I suppose that answers that question. It’s really tempting. I’ve had that thing 50 years or so, a heart stopping change find...it had that dark “real” color.
This kind of makes me want to gold plate some oddball coin and have PCGS certify it. Truly, I don't know why, but it does.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I submitted this coin (see below) a couple years ago. I knew ahead of time that it was magnetic (plated steel). However, it looked so perfect that I wondered if there was an outside chance that it was one of the US Mint prototypes (patterns) that was copper-plated steel (yes, such a thing was made). Before sending it in I had an XRF test done on it and no zinc was detected. Since all issued 1943 steel cents were zinc plated, If this were an ordinary 1943 steel cent that was subsequently copper plated, there would still be some trace of zinc under the copper plating.
Anyway, the coin came back from PCGS in a body bag as "counterfeit".
I almost think of the copper plated 1943 cent as the same as thec1883 gold plated racketeer nickel. Both were basically contemporary “counterfeits”, and can be treated as an historic item. I don’t believe TPGs would be slabbing any and all wacky things....colorized junk etc.
Dan Do you think it’s a mint product or created from a counterfeit die?
Would they slab an 1883 no-cents nickel that had been gold-plated? A contemporary piece might be an interesting conversation starter.
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I think it is a genuine mint product that was:
Privately plated after the fact, with a thick enough copper layer so that the XRF doesn't reach the original zinc plating;
or
Copper-plated steel (without any zinc plating) made as a test by the US Mint.
The probability of the latter is pretty small, but still worth investigating.
You’re the Pro but the lettering overall just looks too thin, rounded and weak. Steelies usually are a hammered strike from the higher strike pressure. As to the zinc plating, was that not missing from edges as the planchets were punched after the steel was already plated?
The nice thing is you get a TrueView too
>
For the copper plating to hide the zinc I think it would have a thickness of hundreds of microns and that would add weight and cause the letters to have a mushy appearance. There are lots of variables, but the link Below has a table near the bottom with some detection depths.
http://www.xrf.guru/Concepts/DepthOfAnalysis/index.html
I wonder if the Zn was stripped off the coin to remove defects in the original plating or to provide better copper adhesion? I don't have electroplating experience so it's just a guess
Although it would likely be lotto type odds, the copper plated steel pattern Theory is interesting IMO. I don't have a copy of Roger Burdette's WW2 pattern book, but it would be interesting to see if he lists the weight and other specs. Too bad he was banned from this forum, or you could have received some expert feedback
How about privately plated after first being stripped of zinc plating?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I dunno. PCGS called it counterfeit..
Do you see a problem with PCGS putting the word "genuine" with it, since a non-insignificant number of these were made for fraudulent reasons? What about coins with added mint marks? Curiously, if you look at their description for counterfeits under their no-grade codes, they include "otherwise genuine coins which have been altered to simulate rarities (re-engraved dates, added mint marks, removed mint marks, etc.)."
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Looking at the description for counterfeits that you quoted, it seems that at the very least, including “Counterfeit” on the label would be warranted. Also, it’s often impossible to know the intent/reason for the alteration, so inferred state of mind shouldn’t be a consideration.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I personally replated dozens of these coins in the lab of a huge plating shop where I worked back in the '70s.
I had a couple of plastic tubes full of corroded steelies - full of zinc oxide and even a little red rust. Ruined.
I reprocessed for fun - never to deceive. Kept some as pocket pieces and won a bunch of drinks at the bar with my magnetic penny. Gave some away - didn't sell a single one. Dropped some in circulation.
Simple to prepare the surface in hydrochloric acid - the zinc and rust disappears like magic. Then into an alkaline cleaner, rinse, and into a dilute HCl bath to activate the surface. Once you have a clean surface into the copper plating bath it went - generally an acidic copper sulfate. I used a small lab barrel arrangement that tumbled the coins gently with highly polished metal shot for conductivity.
Typical production plating thicknesses were 0.0002" on the low side to 0.0005" on the high side - that is 5 to 12 microns thick depending on specification. Fancy XRF equipment was not yet cost effective, so we used the old fashioned magnetic gauges to measure thickness. All else fails, you section a piece and look at it under the microscope.
Did the same with plating zinc instead using a cyanide bath. Just as easy and you could make those coins shimmer like a proof - as unnatural as it was. Or you could adjust the bath and get almost whatever surface finish you wanted with a little experimentation. Plating thicknesses were the same as with copper.
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There should be a category called "novelty coin." PCGS just put that on the slab holding the copper-plated steelie, collect the grading fee and call it a day. For an extra $10 label the novelty coin in the slab a "gimcrack" to add a little intrigue and encourage dictionary use.
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I personally think that coin should be body bagged.
Well Cameonut I suppose it’s possible I got one of you circulation drops. I’m in south Jersey.....I’d know I got it during your timeframe for sure, and I vividly remember finding it in change. Not bought. Is it possible to “plate away” magnetic effect of the steel Cent? Hahaha I imagine That’s been tried a LOT !
I don’t think they’re the same. The racketeer nickel has its place in commerce and lore. One being sold today isn’t being sold as a $5 gold piece, but rather a plated nickel. A copper 1943 cent, on the other hand, is an enormously valuable error, and plating one is largely to change/mask what the coin really is. To that end, it’s a counterfeit. PCGS would refused to grade a 1944 cent that was tooled to read 1943, and this is just a different method to the same end—producing a 1943 copper cent that isn’t what it appears to be.
The above plated 1943 PCGS cent doesn't appear to be copper plated (compared to the photography with the other items the seller is offering).
I agree with Jeremy- PCGS should NOT slab these as they are meant to deceive and even though the insert states what it is (and what it isn't) it degrades the brand.
I did have a gold plated Kennedy once and after applying heat it appeared copper coated. I sent it to PCI and they put it in a red label insert as damaged (and i suppose it is at that point). I just thought it looked cool. Now, that is PCI. I know ICG also will slab weird coins too.
Just not PCGS, IMHO.
peacockcoins
The problem with gold plated 1883 racketeer nickels is you can't be sure when it was actually gold plated.
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I have two steel 1943 pennies slabbed by PCGS as genuine and "Surfaces plated" with AU detail. However, in this case the coin remains steel with no intent to defraud, I do not understand what they mean by surfaces plated. I have seen this before with other steel 1943 coins.
![](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/dv/6m4l0pmh5p4f.jpg " details.
1943 cents were minted from zinc plated steel planchets. Your coin was replated AFTER it left the mint. Replating/reprocessing was a common practice to make coins look nicer. Since it is a modification made after it left the mint, it's not original and won't get a straight grade
They'd probably body bag it.
Pete
"reprocessed"
"re-plated"
it was common to re-plate steel cents in an effort to make them "look better"
it's not about intent to defraud
the idea with coin collecting is to keep them original. re-plating is not keeping it original
lastly, 1943 steel cents are common enough that an AU coin should not be sent in. there is no value in having an AU 1943 cent graded and it will just be a money loser.
feel free to come back here with questions and pictures.
perhaps we can save you some money or celebrate a score.
I skipped thru the thread responses as no one should or would slab this coin by a TPG.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...