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My first encounter with a doctored coin and PCGS's response.
Russ
Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
Recently Laura from Legend posted about a very expensive gold piece that had been doctored and than turned while it was in the holder. PCGS made good on the coin under their guarantee program, but several people hinted that the only reason they did was because a) Legend is a well known dealer and b) Laura raised a public stink about it.
That made me curious as to what would happen if an average nobody numbnuts encountered the problem and said nothing publicly, instead choosing to work through the system behind the scenes. Thus, I decided to say nothing until this issue was resolved, which it has now been.
On 11/12/02 I bought this PCGS PR67CAM Accented Hair Kennedy at auction from Heritage. As a quick aside, they totally screwed up the order, didn't enter it in the system, took three phone calls to get it shipped, than they charged the wrong credit card. But, I digress.
Anyway, I got the coin in, and to my eye it just didn't look "right". The color on the devices seemed off, it had frost breaks where they don't normally occur, and it was missing frost in strange places. But, I thought hey, I'm a friggin' newb, the coin is slabbed by PCGS and I bought it from the largest coin company in the world. What the hell do I know? So, I tucked it away in my stash.
But, the "wrongness" kept knawing at the back of my brain, so a couple days later I pulled it out for another look. The closer I looked, the more convinced I became that it had been doctored to create the frost on the devices. Looking at it under magnification, I was certain that the frost was only on the surface of the coin and, again, the color, look and feel just were not right.
So, I called Charlie Kahler and told him I thought I had a doctored piece. Without hesitation, he said to send that pup back for a look. As soon as the coin arrived at PCGS, he followed up with a phone call to let me know it was in the pipeline. Very shortly after that, he called again to let me know that the graders were about 99% certain that I was right - the coin had been doctored.
Now, I had asked specifically that David Hall have a look-see at the coin. Because he's up to his ass in alligators right now, this took a few more days. No problem, I wanted the main man on this thing. When he got to it, he confirmed, yep it had been doctored.
Charlie called again right after that to give me the news and to inform me of Mr. Hall's solution. He had decided to assign a market value to the coin, and cut a check for that. In addition, they conserved the piece, removing the phony frost and returned it along with the check.
So, now I have re-imbursement and a nice coin. In addition, the market value assigned by Mr. Hall is more than I paid for the coin itself and I'll be able to locate and purchase another PR67CAM Accented Hair.
Bottom line here is that, even for a nobody, PCGS stands behind their product, and Charlie Kahler and David Hall rock!
(Okay, go ahead with the koolaid drinker comments).
A couple of additional notes. Apparently the coin was originally submitted by somebody with a history, and PCGS will be going after the slimeball. And, if you encounter a situation that requires David Hall's attention, be a little patient. He is absolutely buried right now.
Now, all of this begs the question. If an ignorant newb can tell that a coin has been doctored, where the hell were the experts at Heritage?
Russ, NCNE
That made me curious as to what would happen if an average nobody numbnuts encountered the problem and said nothing publicly, instead choosing to work through the system behind the scenes. Thus, I decided to say nothing until this issue was resolved, which it has now been.
On 11/12/02 I bought this PCGS PR67CAM Accented Hair Kennedy at auction from Heritage. As a quick aside, they totally screwed up the order, didn't enter it in the system, took three phone calls to get it shipped, than they charged the wrong credit card. But, I digress.
Anyway, I got the coin in, and to my eye it just didn't look "right". The color on the devices seemed off, it had frost breaks where they don't normally occur, and it was missing frost in strange places. But, I thought hey, I'm a friggin' newb, the coin is slabbed by PCGS and I bought it from the largest coin company in the world. What the hell do I know? So, I tucked it away in my stash.
But, the "wrongness" kept knawing at the back of my brain, so a couple days later I pulled it out for another look. The closer I looked, the more convinced I became that it had been doctored to create the frost on the devices. Looking at it under magnification, I was certain that the frost was only on the surface of the coin and, again, the color, look and feel just were not right.
So, I called Charlie Kahler and told him I thought I had a doctored piece. Without hesitation, he said to send that pup back for a look. As soon as the coin arrived at PCGS, he followed up with a phone call to let me know it was in the pipeline. Very shortly after that, he called again to let me know that the graders were about 99% certain that I was right - the coin had been doctored.
Now, I had asked specifically that David Hall have a look-see at the coin. Because he's up to his ass in alligators right now, this took a few more days. No problem, I wanted the main man on this thing. When he got to it, he confirmed, yep it had been doctored.
Charlie called again right after that to give me the news and to inform me of Mr. Hall's solution. He had decided to assign a market value to the coin, and cut a check for that. In addition, they conserved the piece, removing the phony frost and returned it along with the check.
So, now I have re-imbursement and a nice coin. In addition, the market value assigned by Mr. Hall is more than I paid for the coin itself and I'll be able to locate and purchase another PR67CAM Accented Hair.
Bottom line here is that, even for a nobody, PCGS stands behind their product, and Charlie Kahler and David Hall rock!
(Okay, go ahead with the koolaid drinker comments).A couple of additional notes. Apparently the coin was originally submitted by somebody with a history, and PCGS will be going after the slimeball. And, if you encounter a situation that requires David Hall's attention, be a little patient. He is absolutely buried right now.
Now, all of this begs the question. If an ignorant newb can tell that a coin has been doctored, where the hell were the experts at Heritage?
Russ, NCNE
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Comments
<< <i>Now, all of this begs the question. If an ignorant newb can tell that a coin has been doctored, where the hell were the experts at Heritage? >>
or how about the grader that graded it the first time.
Glad to see you have been taken care of though!
You know we're gonna need pictures of the post-conservation version.
Thanks for the good post, Russ.
Clankeye
<< <i>or how about the grader that graded it the first time. >>
GP,
I would guess that, just as with Laura's coin, it looked fine when first graded and later turned.
Russ, NCNE
Tom
The Heritage picture is still there. But, in answer to your question, yes I have big detailed pictures of the "before" but not the "after". I just got the coin and check today, so I haven't yet had time to shoot the after.
Russ, NCNE
Regards,
Wayne
Wayne
www.waynedriskillminiatures.com
But I do believe that PCGS has made a concerted effort to improve customer service for all. And that is really encouraging for us true nobodies!
Michael
<< <i>Okay, go ahead with the koolaid drinker comments >>
Way to go and I am glad PCGS treated the problem right and gave more than they needed to. Bottoms up! I love Kool-aid!
Cameron Kiefer
It get better. That was my coin you bought, and I bought it from a board member here. It came in after I sold the Kennedy's I had, so I sent it off to Heritage. I'm glad everything turned out allright for you, because I took a bath on that coin...
Russ, NCNE
Laura's coin was over 10k the doctor of that one made good money.
Must be a rookie docktering a $150 dollar coin
<< <i> Bottoms up! I love Kool-aid! Cameron Kiefer >>
EWWWWW!!! Kool-aid is terrible! (But Cameron is Awesome
<< <i>numbnuts >>
I am now convinced that Russ is KinCoin
I see what you mean about the coin if you look at the big photos on the Heritage site. It looks like some paint or something gumming up some of the hair on the portrait. The humanity.
usually some coin sellers are in the business to sell coins slabbed pcgs coins for hopefully more than they paid for them on an expedited basis with the least amount of cost or hassel to them in this process
and i think they did that in this transaction
enough said
sincerely michael
BBBWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
Joe
That is fantastic ,so when are you going to start work at PCGS ? or are you going to start your own service RTKM..i will send my coins to you!!
GREAT JOB RUSS
David
I have discussed this 'problem person', with many coin dealers, and the end result is; there is no solution.
I personally think 'the only solution', is for all dealers to boycott this coin doctor, but that will never happen. Although several dealers did email me and say they would never buy from him. But to be effective, it has to be a majority of the dealers. ZERBE
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i> I personally had a "close encounter" with THE FAMOUS COIN DOCTOR, >>
<< <i>THE FAMOUS COIN DOCTOR has been around for a very long time >>
<< <i>I have discussed this 'problem person', with many coin dealers >>
<< <i> Although several dealers did email me and say they would never buy from him. >>
WHEN is someone going to say who these people are? These threads have gone on and on here, and nobody in the know has yet to step up to the plate and expose these doctors. This mystery and intrigue BS surrounding coin doctors and those that deal with them must end.
Andy
I'm glad it worked out for you Russ, it's the guy who is not as knowledgable as you who is going to get screwed.
First POTD 9/19/05!!
I don't know who doctored mine, as PCGS didn't tell me. But if I ever find out, I WILL reveal it. If they want to try and sue me for telling the truth, so be it.
Russ, NCNE
Thanks for taking the time to tell us the story.
I'm glad to hear that everything worked out in the end and that PCGS stands behind their guarantee.
Mark
Mark's Mattes
Mark's Cameo SMS Set
Mark's Non-Cameo SMS Set
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
I am sure they have a record of the seller.
<< <i>I am sure they have a record of the seller. >>
Placid,
The seller posted in this thread. He's not the guilty party, though. He was another victim along the way.
Russ, NCNE
I wonder how many times it changed hands?
That holder style was introduced in 2002?
It would interesting to see what other coins were submitted to pcgs on the same invoice
I'm not sure, but I think the holder is at least a couple years ago. Maybe Conder101 will happen by and narrow that a bit.
Russ, NCNE
The second cert number higher is a 65dc.
Looks like a mess of A.H.'s were submitted at once.
You might want to write down the cert numbers incase you spot them someplace.
Line one and two 1963 franlkin's 66dc and 67dc.
I guess not only A.H.'s
Russ, NCNE
Again, I do not know all the specifics. But the other dealers who were well aware of the issue were totally for it (as am I). Only the dealers with something to worry about will be against it.
Laura Sperber
lsperber1@hotmail.com
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
I would bet that Heritage hardly scrutinizes very many of the coins they put up for sale. I am sure if they have a killer coin with a killer price, they give it a once over. The real Problem has got to lie with the grading service.
I ask the question: If so many Body baggable coins get thru, How many nice coins get body bagged?
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
How di the experts at Heritage miss it? They probably hardly looked at it. After all it had already been slabbed by PCGS. Just repeat what is on the label, maybe add a couple adjectives and it's cataloged. Move on to the next one.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Excellent job, Russ. Thumbs up for PCGS.
Name the slime ball ( not you MadMarty ) when you guys ever have the proof, so he cannot sue you.
because we all need some good weekend reading sometimes.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Thanks
The name is LEE!
Cartwheel
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