TPG Grading Ranking
chesterb
Posts: 966 ✭✭✭✭✭
I don't anticipate this thread to last but I think it needs to be discussed among hobbyists. I've seen a trend lately where recently graded ANACS coins (within the last 5 years) seem to be conservatively graded and I've seen some really nice coins in ANACS holders. Conversely, I've seen the opposite trend happening ATS where coins seem to be "stretches" for their grade. I know NGC typically has the reputation as the #2 grading service but is that true? Should we as hobbyists need to consider ANACS as the new second in line before NGC?
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Comments
How do you tell when an ANACS coin was graded?
Good question! I was assuming by the color (gold) and type of the holder.
I think your assumption is false. I also disagree that it needs to be discussed, what rank you chose is your call nobody has to agree with your rank.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I agree with your observation.
I think each one has their speciality.
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My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Regardless of how well they might do it .... ANACS was cast into the hinterlands when JA said ‘No beans for your shabby plastic!’ ...
I agree. See now that is a constructive comment unlike Coinbut.
Ahhh did little chester get his feeling hurt.
Poor little guy.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Not really. I have amazingly broad shoulders. It seems like you did though 🙂
REALLY ?
Really?
I think you have been here long enough to know when an ANACS (or any other coin) has been graded, Right?
There has been more than one thread about when a certain slab was issued, take a peek.
I buy the coin and not just the slab. While most of my slabbed coins are in PCGS and NGC slabs, I own several very nice and properly graded coins in ANACS and ICG slabs. I even own some coins that are raw.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The only ANACS holders i stay away from are the sortve new blue label holder's.
The only way I know when ANACS coins were graded is when I've submitted them, and I've submitted quite a few to them in the past two years. Disclaimer: I've not sent any that were in high MS, these were more in circulated or AU grades. Pretty much all of them seemed to be graded well, IMHO.
I've noticed that the gold series of ANACS slabs seem to have more consistent grading. Unfortunately those cheaply made and shakily graded blue series of slabs torpedoed their reputation. It's going to take time to repair that.
10-4,
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It is the coin, not the slab, it is the coin, not the grade, it is the coin, not the TPG. Grading is an opinion, there are no written, repeatable standards... just general categories. Buy the coin!!! Cheers, RickO
I have submitted to both Anacs and NGC over the last few years. Anacs has been fairly consistent and even conservative in that time frame. NGC has been solid as well. I did not notice any loose grading with either service when it came to my submissions (although it was a small sample size). From the coins that I follow at auction, the only times I've seen loose grading is with upper end toned coins. All the TPGs tend to market grade the color and occasionally let things pass that would be more scrutinized on a blast white coin.
Thanks everyone for your comments.
@Zoins among the gold Anacs holders, I've noticed two main types (could be more but these are the most noticeable).
This is older:
And this is the newer one (now the big letter A is a different color and the logo shifted from right corner to left)
For me it’s a fact that coins in PCGS holders have brought more value at sale than it’s counterparts but it also depends on what you like our host doesn’t grade a lot of stuff that the others will so some stuff simply no data available and of course older holder should not be counted sometimes old holders bring more value because they are valued higher due to demand vs what’s left.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
In terms of volume of coins graded, none compare to PCGS and NGC. Even if you agree with the grade, you have to think how you will later sell it. Also no cac option. Anacs and Icg just don't have the support staff, and investments, why you can get coins graded at $10 or less through them.
I only submit to PCGS with rare exceptions. The market's valuation of each service's opinion seems to be:
CAC >>>> PCGS >> NGC > ANACS > ICG or perhaps more completely:
PCGS + CAC >>> NGC + CAC >> PCGS no CAC >> NGC > ANACS> ICG >> others
funny, I was just promoted to master also. They must have lowered the admissions standards. I think that means I can disagree with you but I don't think I will. I do think it depends on the series though. for example, for Morgans, I thiink NGC is pretty close to PCGS and they actually do better than PCGS for GSAs, though that may have something to do with PCGS's rather bulky packaging. I haven't seen too many ANACS Morgans, but I think their standards are pretty good as well. Then again, I think Morgans are among the easiest coins to grade consistently. Also, for things like Conder Tokens, while I like PCGS, more experienced dealers have told me they prefer NGC. Where NGC lost me was in early type, including bust halves. I think PCGS graded early type is much more conservative and much less forgiving on things like cleaning.
And ANACS has always, or at least historically, seen many more circulated coins than the others. While I think ANACS' circulated standards are a bit "lax" compared to our host, they used to see a lot more of them, particularly low grade VG, F and VF coins and theoretically at least have more consistent standards than others. but I still think they are too lax.
While I agree that you must buy the coin and not the holder, I also still think that the current quality of grading companies goes something like PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and then the others, unless we are talking about old slabs (the small ANACS slabs in 65 are almost always conservative), soap box NGCs, and OGHs. )
Tom
My preferences:
PCGS
ANACS little white Slab
NGC
ANACS Blue or Yellow .... (note) I absolutely hate the yellow color of the ANACS yellow slab, just horrendous. I would never knowingly put a coin in that slab color.
I knew that statement made no sense but I was in a mood last night because of a PM which put me over the edge. I must apologize to coinbuf.
I'm glad it didn't derail the thread and I agree they lowered their standards!
I agree with this based on market valuation.
I think each TPG service has their own niche, PCGS for their reliable grading/customer service, Anacs for specials and mixed submissions, NGC for oversized cases and star, ICG for hiring Insider2, and the rest of the services for trying 😉
ANACS has their moments of greatness, as does PCGS AND NGC.
I DON'T like that they are not allowed into the Registry or to be verified by CAC.
Personally, I have NEVER bought an ANACS slab in my life and, if I ever do, it will be crossed to either NGC or PCGS.
JMHO.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
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Really?
I don't follow ANACS, so yes
I like the small anacs holders. Who knows what the next 15-20 years will bring. They could be the next doily sensation after the majority get cracked out.
The yellow holder is pretty ugly. They need a marketing overhaul with new holder!
My main issue with the ANACS Blue holder is you can't read the label from the top, which it seems like you should be able to for a modern ANACS holder. It kind of reminds me of the ICG holder, but I do like the finger notches in the ICG holder.
The one true measure of a third party grading service IMO is not how tough/conservative you are, not your registry set popularity, not if some guy will put a silly green sticker on your plastic, etc, etc........it's long term consistency in grading. That is something at which both major services have failed miserably at over the course of time, and both have had standards literally all over the map and then some over the years. If I had to pick the top end, most reliable grading services based on the above I would say the original green tag PCI and Hallmark were probably the two best out there.
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Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
When you say toned coins are loosely graded, are you evaluating them using technical grading?
TPGs use market grading which factors market prices into grades, but I've found that many times the coins still sell for far more than their grades would indicate. I wonder if this mean strong toners continue to be undergraded, even with market grading.
I’ve seen some that are well above even market grades. 1 point for color is one thing but 2-3 points is going well above market grading (which is flawed already considering-like you mention-a 64 market graded for color to a 65 sells for multiples of 65 values).
And toners are certainly not undergraded. You really don’t have much room to go higher when some are already market graded as 67-69. And no matter the color, you can’t just take a heavily baggy MS 60-61 Morgan with great color and market grade it more than 1-1.5 points higher.
I collect toners (especially Morgans) and I’ve seen quite a few that made me scratch my head. I still continue to collect them but I’m picky and look for the best possible combo of color, fair grade, and price.
Wonder no more. 😉Generally, “strong toners” certainly don’t tend to be under-graded. When they bring seemingly high prices, it’s usually because of their individuality and beauty, not conservative grades.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My understanding is that market grading factors price into the grade, and strong toners often exhibit prices that do not appear to be fully factored into the grade. So I'm not sure what portion of pricing is factored into grade and what isn't.
Agreed. There are always examples that can and do upgrade. However, that number certainly is not large enough to suggest that strong toners are undergraded.
Based on some of the record prices for strong toners, they would need to be graded MS 70 to keep up with the market.
Edit: also the grade can just as often drive the price. A 64 Morgan toner can sell for $2,000. Then it gets market graded to a 67 (to account for the price). As a 67 it then sells for $10,000. Do we now market grade it as a 68+? And if we do and it sells for $100,000, do we again upgrade it to a 69+?
Market grading's goal is to incorporate price into the grade, so I'd say to be truly successful, it needs to do that and the grade needs to reflect the price.
Of course, what is likely happening is that market grading isn't fully implemented for toners.
It sounds like you’re viewing the grading process (including grade bumps for color) as far more specific and precise than it actually is or ever could ever be.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Perhaps, but my impression is that grading is pretty precise because the following thread shows 100 individual grade points being used today:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1015887/the-100-point-grading-scale-in-use-today
If eye appeal is 10% of a factor when grading and eye appeal relates to market, then I do not see the TPG ever going to the extremes noted in determining their grade opinion.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
This seems to agree with what I posted above on toning being an area that may not fully covered by current market grading implementations.
I don’t claim to know what percentage of a grade eye-appeal constitutes, but in the case of many mint state and Proof coins, It seems like it’s much larger than 10%.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the price keeps increasing every time the grade increases, how can market grading ever keep up? You reach MS 70 and then what? Should all strong toners be graded 70?
This is why holistic grading makes the most sense. Pick a standard, like 25% surfaces, 25% luster, 25% eye appeal, 25% strike (just an example-pick some breakdown and stick to it). Then all coins are graded equally and the market can determine the price based on how much someone likes the coin.
It seems according to market grading, grades should reflect prices.
My understanding is that the TPGs all use market grading and the ANA teaches market grading as well.