Pepperdoodles Dilemma

segoja · December 16, 2002 12:18PM

Help with our friend Pepperdoodles: Your opinions please.

Over hyped coin. link as follows:

Ebay 1956 Half

Read the descroption of the coin and look at the photo. The reverse is as the coin is pictured DCAM All the time. The obverse sure sounds like a DCAM description or very close to it, which is what I was expecting. The obverse grades a 5 on the scale of 1-10 for CAM. 1 being barely makes it, and sometimes doesn't to 10 being almost DCAM and sometimes will DCAM. The obverse would never even get close to DCAM. The hype and photo clearly do not match the coin (It's the same coin, jsut a very very generous photo of the obverse). Obviously the guy won't take the coin back, even at a discount. He also states the coin is worth upwards of $3500, but won't take it back for 1/3 of that.

A few others have pointed out a similar pattern with this gentleman, thus my questions:

1) Is this fraud (As defined by Webster - deceit or trickery used to gain an unfair or dishonest advantage)

2) If it is fraud, then do you proceed with A) EBAY Fraud or

Postal Service Mail Fraud (Maybe that's why he doesn't like shipping with USPS), or C) Both

Like your guys feedback.

I'm also glad to ship the coin to anyone for a look. I'll pay the postage to you, you pay it back. If I can't grade, then I'll admit it, but I'm dam good on proofs and Cameos.

Thanks in advance for your help.

goose3 · December 16, 2002 12:23PM

How did you pay him?

Paypal? thru checking? credit card?

Money order??

this might help on responses.

segoja · December 16, 2002 12:36PM

No recourse here. He doesn't take credit cards, again maybe part of the ploy.

bennybravo · December 16, 2002 1:30PM

Just curious, what would the coin sell for as an average example of the date and type?How much did you overpay by your estimatation?

FatMan · December 16, 2002 1:43PM

I was wondering why you would think this coin was DCAM? Seller says he sent into PCGS 4 times to try to get the grade and failed. Athough the photo looks DCAM we have all seen what RUSS can do with a camera.

I know its not cool around here to buy the slab-- but after 4 times at PCGS I would trust the slab alot more than an easily altered image file in an Ebay auction.

Just my Humble Opinion - I could be wrong.

drsvenghali · December 16, 2002 1:50PM

Ditto the Fatman. PCGS turned it down 4 times and digital photos can be altered. What were you hoping for???

Russ · December 16, 2002 1:52PM

<< <i>Athough the photo looks DCAM we have all seen what RUSS can do with a camera. >>

And, compared to Pepperdoodles, I flat-out suck. He's in a league all his own when it comes to shooting coins to best advantage.

Russ, NCNE

DCAMFranklin · December 16, 2002 1:53PM

Segoja- Did you ask Ol'Funderburke why a lifetime member of the ANA is refusing to offer a 7-day return privilege when that is required by the ANA? Have you submitted a complaint to the ANA?

braddick · December 16, 2002 2:01PM

I would also like to know where this coin stands as a straight 66CAM in value.
Either way though- the PHOTO doesn't look that wonderful. There are some breaks in the frost on the portrait and like you said, it appears to rate a "5" on a 1- 10 CAM scale.

It's disapointing this seller won't accept a return. I don't believe this one borders on fraud though.
I'm sure you were hoping for the coin that was being hyped up in the TEXT and ended up with the coin shown in the PHOTO.

DCAMFranklin · December 16, 2002 2:01PM

Segoja- In the very first thread about Pepperdoodles, Truthteller told of a VERY long history with Jeff Funderburke. He would not provide details in the public forum. However, if you PM Truthteller, perhaps he will provide you with some historical detail!

smprfi · December 16, 2002 2:03PM

His photos and title show what you are bidding on.The description is his opinion.He said he tried for the higher grade and failed.

Don't want to appear rude but you bid with hope on this one and it fell through.
Suck it up and keep the coin.

segoja · December 16, 2002 2:14PM

I'm keeping the coin. Live and learn. What I was hoping for was a coin that was close to DCAM as the description states, not one that would never grade DCAM, as this coin is. I'm not real smart, but I do know cameos, and I woudl never waste my $$ trying to get this coin to go DCAM.

As for value, not sure. I would certainly sell the coin, obviously at a loss or I would have had a million PM wanting to buy the coin.

Would take offers. Some one else bid close to my bid, but I venture to guess that the photos swayed tier bidding as well.

Unfortunately I was not familar with Russ' top notch photographic skills.

Just want to make everyone aware of what I learned so that it doesn't happen to you.

mnmcoin · December 16, 2002 2:14PM

Normal average 66cam go for around 5 or 6 hundred. Maybe even a little less now.

mo <><

segoja · December 16, 2002 2:18PM

Thanks for the update on price. This coin obviously is a better than average, but not near the hype.

What does that make it worth???

I'll have the coin at FUN!!!

And I'll and a whole lot of FUN with it. Guarantee I'll get my $1400 out of it, and hopefully cost my friend at least 10x that in opportunnity cost.

mnmcoin · December 16, 2002 2:29PM

I sold a very near dcam (so near that last I heard it was going into an NGC Ultra holder) for $2250, but that was a 67cam.

morris <><

leothelyon · December 16, 2002 2:29PM

No! No! No! You don't lie down like some dog with this sort of BS. Take it up with ebay. Complain that the photo was enhanced and the description was overkill and that this seller refuses to refund. Find out where to send coin for evaluation. Here's the email for powersellers, powersellersinfo@ebay.com.
Here's ebay's complaint link.
Maybe someone could provide the ANA link.

Leo

keets · December 16, 2002 2:36PM

.........i think his description was honest and yet deceiving but the photos don't look manipulated. they show a coin which is a "dead ringer DCAM" reverse and a "never get past CAM" obverse because the frost isn't evenly covering the portrait. what makes matters even worse is from the scan it appears that the numerical grade is all obverse as well with some spotting and hairlining.

i looked at the bid history and it looks as though you wanted the coin. enjoy it as such with the added value of a lesson learned. i bought hype before but had the safety net of the PCGS grade guarantee. now i make my own decisions cause right or wrong they're easier to live with.

you might want to consider sending it to PCGS or NGC to have it holdered with "it's best face forward" which is obviously the reverse.

al h.

DCAMFranklin · December 16, 2002 2:41PM

Segoja- Regarding the FUN show and having some fun. You should be sure to print out lots of copies of the auction page and photos. Pepperdoodles ALWAYS goes to the FUN show and he will almost certainly be there this year. You should have a good time passing around copies of his embellishing auction description. You can then ask other dealers if they would have submitted that coin to PCGS 4 times for the DCAM grade!!

wayneherndon · December 16, 2002 2:46PM

I think you should file a complaint with the ANA. ANA members are required to offer return privileges in most situations. I believe they would make him give you a refund or toss him out of the ANA.

WH

supercoin · December 16, 2002 2:47PM

Interesting that he no longer has the inserts from those four crackout attempts.

I don't see how you have a case of fraud, he can simply say it's simply a difference of opinion.

An unstated no-return policy is really lame, though. If that's his policy it should be in big bold letters. Since he's an eBay PowerSeller you may be able to make a case with them. I (vaguely) recall when I got PowerSeller status you had to agree to some sort of return disclosure in your auctions.

Good luck...

truthteller · December 16, 2002 2:52PM

I have had two bad experiences with Jeff Funderburke years ago as a dealer. Many dealers in the coin industry know of him. He just doesn't care. Unfortunately, this is a "chalk one up for the price of education."

TRUTH

keets · December 16, 2002 2:59PM

An unstated no-return policy is really lame

hey tad

i had to go back and reread the listing and you sure are right. that's a change eBay should make and it would be a simple one. add a space on the listing page for the return policy that could be shown where all the checkout info----shipping and insurance----is listed. i'm sure most bidders at least give a cursory glance at their potential shipping cost and would see it without needing to read a description.

a no return policy by a seller is a no bid policy by me.

al h.

Tonelover · December 16, 2002 3:11PM

add a space on the listing page for the return policy that could be shown where all the checkout info----shipping and insurance----is listed.

Keets, that's a great idea, reall is. Problem is that ebay would never adopt it because it would only help in aiding the buyer. It's the sellers they want to take care of.

gmarguli · December 16, 2002 3:29PM

Perhaps you should run an eBay auction with this coin. Title it "PEPPERDOODLES SCREWED ME WITH THIS COIN".

In the auction description list the ways he manipulated the hype and images. Save his photos and use them and yours in the auction for people to compare.

Neg him.

File a complain with the ANA if he is a member. You'll probably be spinning your wheels, but it is worth a shot.

Not that I'd ever do this, but some people would create MANY other fake eBay ID and either bid on all his auctions or snipe them and post negative feedback. Not that I'd ever do this....

relayer · December 16, 2002 3:34PM

Whenever you see an ad telling more about what the coin SHOULD be, instead of what is IS - it's a good time to leave.

darktone · December 16, 2002 9:38PM

Sorry if I sound harsh but if you bid on a PCGS 1956 TYPE1 PR66 CAMEO and that's what you got I see no problems with the seller. I think it's pretty common knowledge that many ebay sellers will talk thier coin up to the point of it being fraud but this one is PCGS certified. I alway's take a sellers description with a grain of salt and when I sell I alway's offer a no questioned ask return. I hope it all works out. mike

BIGDAVE · December 16, 2002 10:23PM

I Just Purchased A 1952 NGC pr67 washington, from R&I coin for $55.
his ad stated W/cameo, the price goes nuts in pr67 with cameo,
His pictures showed a cameo obv and rev....
I got the coin the rev is 100% cam the obv is lite cam it wont make it,

it was hype !! i saw the holder NGC PF67, But i bid on it anyway in the hope of... well we all have done it,

did he do anything wrong .. his pictures were not accurate he stated w/ cameo But the holder clearly stated pf67

No he did NOTHING WRONG,i dont think i over paid for the coin , and i am not mad or upset with R&I coin. AND I WILL STILL BUY FROM HIM ..

BUT i will ignore W/cameo when he states it!!

You Must Buy the Holder not the coin if you Buy off the internet..pictures can be altered and we all know about hype ...

1952

greghansen · December 16, 2002 11:12PM

I'm in agreement with the ANA complaint route first suggested by DCAM and seconded by others. I'm not in agreement with the retaliatory suggestions offered. From a point of law, in my opinion, there is nothing fraudulent about the description. He's puffing like the wolf in 'The Three Little Pigs', but isn't saying anything 'actionable'. With your stated expertise @ proof and cameo coins, in my judgment you should certainly be aware that photographs cannot be relied upon. When I see a coin photo that 'looks' different from its assigned grade, I always look for the return policy next. While I will admit to not always checking the return policy before bidding if the coin and grade seem consistent, I agree with othes that the best rule is "no return policy=no bid from me". This transaction reminds me of one of my harshly learned investment lessons, "Lost opportunity is easier to make up than lost money".

Greg Hansen
Melbourne, FL

BIGDAVE · December 16, 2002 11:42PM

I see You Have Two Opions ,you say the coin is nice

#1 Crack it, dip it, and send and hope for a 67cam or???

#2 put it away the price of cameo's in the 50's are going to go up the more people get into the registry it is addicting!!!!!! it is a type one that is good

Lesson learned if it says pr66 cam that is what it is..forget what any seller says...look at the holder ..if you want to spend more than $200 on a coin...only in PERSON never on the internet

my buying rule
PCGS 50% of cu or teletrade average
ngc 30% of cu or teletrade average

supercoin · December 16, 2002 11:59PM

It was pointed out to me that my snide remark about Pepperdoodles not having the slab inserts is something I have no knowledge of, which is true. My apologies to him for that remark.

However, I stand by the comment about a no-return policy. That policy is definitely not the norm with mail order coin sales, even in auction format. It's difficult to see any legitimate reason why someone with that policy wouldn't clearly state that in the auction.

If he had labelled it "no returns" then there would be no problem. Of course, there would probably be lower bidding too.

Anyway, not my battle, and I hope you guys work it out amicably, or at least quickly. Life's too short.

coindaughter · December 17, 2002 1:22AM

I agree with those above about ANA rules. It may help to simply remind him of ANA's Code of Ethics, which states that dealers must:

"To frequently publish my statement of return privileges, which will allow my customers a designated period of time in which to return numismatic material for a refund, except bullion or bullion-related material may not be returned for a refund. Said period of time shall not be less than fifteen (15) days from the recorded date of receipt or other transmittal of said material or not less than ten (10) days after my customer's receipt thereof or my attempted delivery thereof to my customer, whichever time period shall be the earlier. If a customer submits a misdescribed or overgraded coin to a certification service for authentication or grading and notifies me of such submission within ten (10) days of my date of mailing or other delivery, I will continue to recognize his/her return privilege for thirty (30) days after my customer's receipt of said coin from me. In an auction sale of consigned material, the return privilege period may be made available only to mail bidders, and the period for the return of such material may be limited to five (5) days from the mail bidder's receipt thereof or fifteen (15) days from the bidder's receipt of the invoice for such material or my attempted delivery of my invoice therefor, whichever time period shall be the earlier."

Here is the link to the ANA's bylaws,

You probably won't have to file a complaint. Just write to the dealer and quote this, and maybe he'll relent.

Good luck.

DCAMFranklin · December 17, 2002 2:05AM

Bigdave- I've made a few threads about R&I and their auction titles and descriptions. Since Rick allowed his "junior" salespeople to take on additional Ebay ID's, they have tried to make every brilliant into a "near cameo" and every Cameo into a "just less than DCAM". I bought one of their coins described as DCAM+ Obv. for a BIG premium. When the coin arrived here, it had numerous frost breaks on the reverse and should NEVER have been Certified as DCAM by PCGS.

Herein lies the difference between your transaction, Bigdave, and Segoja's. Segoja wants to return the coin for a full refund. Pepperdoodles, a lifetime member of the ANA, refuses to offer a refund privilege, even though he INSISTS upon one when he is buying. If you decided to return your '52 Quarter, R&I would gladly provide you with a full refund. When I returned my coin above, they gladly reversed the PayPal charge, though I did have to REMIND them to do so.

BIGDAVE · December 17, 2002 2:33AM

i love my 1952 i would not return it , i just dont understand why he paid such a premium on a coin in a pr66 cam holder,i was just using the coin i bought as an example that all sellers use hype to sell coins
and enhanced photo's, even the best R&I does it. i know if i did not like the coin he would take it back,my point was if a coin is in a holder and was submitted 4 times and came back cam 4 times then that is all it is a cam , no matter what the seller says. i did not mean anything against R & I , i have made a lot of purchases from them and have always beeen happy ,even my 1952

Russ · December 17, 2002 2:44AM

Dave,

Sometimes those "near" cams from R&I can pay off. I BINed a 1965 SMS Kennedy slabbed by PCGS as an MS67 (no cam) for $45 a while back because I thought R&I got screwed on the cameo designation. Cracked it out, resubmitted and it's now in a 67CAM holder. Nice value bump just adding those three letters to the label.

Russ, NCNE

BIGDAVE · December 17, 2002 2:54AM

Russ

you did great , that is what i was hoping for,rats
i did get a 1964 ngc pf67 cameo accented hair last night hope that was not you i was bidding against

David

Russ · December 17, 2002 3:01AM

David,

Wouldn't have been me bidding. I don't buy very many Accented Hairs already certified. Only when I can get them stupidly cheap.

I did buy a 1964 NGC 67CAM normal Kennedy from R&I a while back. It's now in a PCGS 68CAM holder.

Russ, NCNE

BIGDAVE · December 17, 2002 3:03AM

$80 is that to much

Russ · December 17, 2002 3:14AM

David,

That depends. If the coin is actually a 67CAM, $80 is a screaming fantastic steal. The problem is that earlier graded CAM NGC material is frequently not really a cameo. They gave out the designation too easily. They've tightened that recently, though. Did the auction say "new airtight holder"?

Russ, NCNE

DCAMFranklin · December 17, 2002 3:20AM

Bigdave- I didn't think you said anything bad about R&I. I just wanted to point out that if you were disappointed in the '52, you would have rec'd your money back. Segoja does not have that opportunity! I agree he bid too much and he relied upon the description. However, the WRITTEN word does have a greater impact in a court of law. Frankly, I'm not sure we should believe the coin was submitted 4 times. Nothing else in his crap descriptions seems to be overly accurate.

pontiacinf · December 17, 2002 3:59AM

im with the evil man

create a few id's and let the world know bout this scum...

heck id do it for ya...sounds like fun

gmarguli · December 17, 2002 4:43AM

Pepperdoodles AKA SCUMBAG reads this forum. Look at the pathetic email I got from him:

From: "Pepperdoodles" <sfunderburke@jam.rr.com>
To: <greg@frozengold.com>
Subject: re:ebay/slander
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:55:32 -0600

thank you for opening yourself wide open to slander with a bunch of nonsense as you wrote last night. how stupid.

HAHAHAHAHA. You pathetic loser! Just in case you read this forum before you get me email to you, here is my reply: I'm confident in what I wrote. You want to take me on, go for it scumbag.

keets · December 17, 2002 4:57AM

.........this thread seems to have reached a tenuous conclusion, where there are ideas of solutions but nothing really useful accomplished. i'll say for the record that i've had 2 experiences with this seller,and while one was slow in completeing both coins were as represented and communication with him was normal. with that said, it appears clear that he has a history of ethical lapses.

i assume he visits here, may even be a member. i wonder if there are any dealers who come into contact with him regularly who could speak with him about the ANA return policy? is there anyone who can e-mail/call/write the ANA and report his lack of a return policy? is there anyone who has some space on a web-page that could be used to compile a list of dealers/sellers that should be avoided for various reasons------in lieu of that perhaps we members could start a thread that we can bookmark and access for the same purpose, keeping it at or near the top or easily found in the archives?

these could be some constructive approaches. i can help to an extent, but i don't have web space and to be honest, my negative experiences with sellers can be counted on the fingers of one hand with room left to drink a cup of coffee. it does seem that there are "regular"offenders that should be avoided. does anyone wish to do more than whine and scheme? maybe it's time to step up.

al h.

Russ · December 17, 2002 5:06AM

<< <i>i assume he visits here, may even be a member. >>

Either that, or somebody here who has a habit of tattling to eBay sellers alerted him to the discussion.

Russ, NCNE

gmarguli · December 17, 2002 5:11AM

More laughable threats from this loser:

heh,it wont be too hard to go for you pal,you're easily accessible. you hadnt got a clue who you are talking to nor what you are talking about with all your troublemaking ramblings.just popping off like you are somebody important. a friend of mine at heritage rcg in dallas is who email forwarded me your slander when he saw something about pepperdoodles and read further and informed me of who to talk to and the remedy/process to have you removed from c/u permanantly. keep it up and you'll be out. threat? no. promise? yes. and why of course i read c/u boards have for a long while now,it's an integral part of our industry,not yours. we just dont have the time nor the weak stature like you to stoop to participating in your kind of kid stuff. until you crossed the line i was ignoring you and the rest of the whiners. this is not your playground son so be informed.

I don't know what is funnier, this scumbags pathetic threats or his inability to use grammar. I'm shaking. HAHAHAHA.

DCAMFranklin · December 17, 2002 5:40AM

I guess we hit a tender spot! I think CU will be most proud to keep us on this Forum. We've found a lifetime member of the ANA accepting $1,400, $800 too much for the coin, and refusing to grant a refund privilege. Hopefully, ANA will have enough spine to cancel his membership!

Well Russ, I guess Pepperdoodles has told you "who has a habit of tattling to Ebay sellers". Guess we ought to ask Heritage about this.

DCAMFranklin · December 17, 2002 5:43AM

Later this evening, I think we will have some other Members telling us they have been contacted by Pepperdoodles.

MadMarty · December 17, 2002 6:01AM

Thought I'd pipe in with my opinion. segoja bought the coin. I don't think there was anything wrong with the item's description. But if the dealer is an ANA member he should abide by the policys it has. If he does not offer a refund, he should be dropped from the ANA. Plain and simple!

DCAMFranklin · December 17, 2002 6:08AM

Hey Greg- If you bid on a coin and later found out (somehow out of the blue??) the seller refused to provide a refund privilege, would you bother to send your payment?

braddick · December 17, 2002 6:08AM

The only email I recieved was a pleasant one stating the scans/photos on eBay are NOT tweaked in any form or fashion. Just point and click- that's it.

The bigger picture in all of this too is the CU Forums have grown to a point where it is almost impossible for other members of the community to simply ignore.

kranky · December 17, 2002 6:09AM

Pepperdoodles, since you are obviously reading this thread anyway, why not respond here? It might be a way to clear up any misconceptions.

DCAMFranklin · December 17, 2002 6:12AM

Hey Braddick, there are lots of potential buyers on the CU Forum aren't there?

As you said, threads such as this would be hard to ignore.

Potential buyers are certainly influenced by what they read here.

A quick refund would be well advised. A CLEAR statement in current and future auctions regarding the refund privilege would be well advised, as well.

Pepperdoodles Dilemma

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