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Why are star designations so difficult on...

AlanSkiAlanSki Posts: 1,926 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Jefferson Nickels?

My one and only.

Comments

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The designation isn't that tough. Many are lost in cross overs. I've killed numerous star designated pieces this way over the years.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,292 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Many of the gold pieces are bright from dipping. Pass

    Latin American Collection

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    why do so many members.........................

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ..............................make thread titles like this??

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I really don't know.

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,429 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    why do so many members.........................

    Clickbait...to increase their viewership?

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At least it keeps us going.....

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is just another "opinion".

    All glory is fleeting.
  • fiftysevenerfiftysevener Posts: 921 ✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The designation isn't that tough. Many are lost in cross overs. I've killed numerous star designated pieces this way over the years.

    Star coins lost in crossovers leave me speechless. Many here think NGC coins are graded higher than PCGS would grade. So if NGC doesn't think it deserves the next higher grade but merits a Star for whatever attribute it has, why would you forfeit the exceptional Star marker [and of course value] just to get a now generic PCGS grade ?

  • jabbajabba Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’ve seen many GSA CC in original holders with star ⭐️ most have lots of colors from those bags that they know most likely are original surfaces.


    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 9,558 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2020 10:21AM

    Star designations are usually awarded to coins with eye appealing color.

    I think that such toning is quite rare, on Jefferson nickels, making them more scarce.

    Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fiftysevener said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The designation isn't that tough. Many are lost in cross overs. I've killed numerous star designated pieces this way over the years.

    Star coins lost in crossovers leave me speechless. Many here think NGC coins are graded higher than PCGS would grade. So if NGC doesn't think it deserves the next higher grade but merits a Star for whatever attribute it has, why would you forfeit the exceptional Star marker [and of course value] just to get a now generic PCGS grade ?

    Presumably, those who do so, think the coin’s “value” will still be similar. Or they think it will be less, but for their own reason(s), prefer the coin in a PCGS holder, anyway.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 11,639 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerfan said:
    Star designations are usually awarded to coins with eye appealing color.

    I think that such toning is quite rare, on Jefferson nickels, making them more scarce.

    This ^

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,012 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have a few star graded buffalo nickels but when I show them here on the forum I never mention they are stared. Their beauty speaks loudly and that’s all that matters to me. I save them as is. I’m more than sure the grade would go up if crossed but it just doesn’t matter to me.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • WaterSportWaterSport Posts: 6,873 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A great coin speaks for itself. A star speaks for the marketing department.

    WS

    Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WaterSport said:
    A great coin speaks for itself. A star speaks for the marketing department.

    WS

    Take that thought far enough and there’s no need to get coins graded in the first place.😉

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 7,439 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @WaterSport said:
    A great coin speaks for itself. A star speaks for the marketing department.

    WS

    Take that thought far enough and there’s no need to get coins graded in the first place.😉

    But, but...what about Doilies? 😉

    Seated Half Society member #38
    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2020 5:46PM

    @fiftysevener said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The designation isn't that tough. Many are lost in cross overs. I've killed numerous star designated pieces this way over the years.

    Star coins lost in crossovers leave me speechless. Many here think NGC coins are graded higher than PCGS would grade. So if NGC doesn't think it deserves the next higher grade but merits a Star for whatever attribute it has, why would you forfeit the exceptional Star marker [and of course value] just to get a now generic PCGS grade ?

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so. Although NGC's guarantee is void, the original opinion as to eye appeal is not. The NGC guarantee really doesn't compensate for stars anyway so any value is from a marketing perspective. If you keep the label, you can market it however you wish with the benefit of having two TPG grading opinions.

    2. Why would someone cross over a star coin to PCGS in the first instance? Many people like the PCGS plastic better and/or True Views. Moreover, the coins are usually worth more in PCGS holders. There are exceptions where the NGC star designation can be worth more. This is usually for borderline coins where the star designation wasn't deserved or was only a marginal candidate to begin with. These also tend to be less expensive coins where people are only chasing labels. In those instances, it makes sense to leave the coins alone. Coins that might fetch a small NGC star premium over generic PCGS graded label include those with marginally above average cameo contrast or one sided cameos particularly from the late 1950s to the 1970s; one sided PL coinage/DPL coinage; some semi-PL coins; coins with only a scintilla of toning; etc. In other words, coins that really aren't that special to begin with but are gobbled up by NGC registry label chasers.

    Edited: typos

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @WaterSport said:
    A great coin speaks for itself. A star speaks for the marketing department.

    WS

    Take that thought far enough and there’s no need to get coins graded in the first place.😉

    Except for the guarantee... but then again, what value do the guarantees really carry now a days anyway? There are so many exceptions and loop holes.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2020 5:02PM

    @MFeld said:

    @fiftysevener said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The designation isn't that tough. Many are lost in cross overs. I've killed numerous star designated pieces this way over the years.

    Star coins lost in crossovers leave me speechless. Many here think NGC coins are graded higher than PCGS would grade. So if NGC doesn't think it deserves the next higher grade but merits a Star for whatever attribute it has, why would you forfeit the exceptional Star marker [and of course value] just to get a now generic PCGS grade ?

    Presumably, those who do so, think the coin’s “value” will still be similar. Or they think it will be less, but for their own reason(s), prefer the coin in a PCGS holder, anyway.

    Or they think the coin will be worth more notwithstanding the loss of the "star" designation. For many series , the PCGS premium is fairly large. The higher you go grade wise and for early coinage particularly, it is not unusual for PCGS coins at label grade "X" to sell for more than what the same coin would be worth in a NGC holder at "X+1" grade. I don't think a star alone will over come that premium differential in most cases.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @fiftysevener said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The designation isn't that tough. Many are lost in cross overs. I've killed numerous star designated pieces this way over the years.

    Star coins lost in crossovers leave me speechless. Many here think NGC coins are graded higher than PCGS would grade. So if NGC doesn't think it deserves the next higher grade but merits a Star for whatever attribute it has, why would you forfeit the exceptional Star marker [and of course value] just to get a now generic PCGS grade ?

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    2. Why would someone cross over a star coin to PCGS in the first instance? Many people like the PCGS plastic better and/or True Views. Moreover, the coins are usually worth more in PCGS holders. There are exceptions where the NGC star designation can be worth more. This is usually for borderline coins where the star designation wasn't deserved or was only a marginal candidate to begin with. These are tend to be less expensive coins where people are only chasing labels. In those instances, it makes sense to leave the coins alone. Coins that might fetch a small NGC star premium over generic PCGS graded label include those with marginally above average cameo contrast or one sided cameos particularly from the late 1950s to the 1970s; one sided PL coinage/DPL coinage; some semi-PL coins; coins with only a scintilla of toning; etc. In other words, coins that really aren't that special to begin with but are gobbled up by NGC registry label chasers.

    Your reference to “NGC registry label chasers” strikes me as unfair and somewhat ironic. Plenty of collectors covet coins with the “star” designation without any regard to the NGC registry. And many collectors cross coins to PCGS holders or will buy only PCGS coins, because of the “PCGS Registry label”.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 11,639 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    I have said this before but it bears repeating; once the coin has transferred to a different TPG plastic using the old cert is fraudulent, dishonest and frankly disgusting that anyone would promote such actions.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinbuf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    I have said this before but it bears repeating; once the coin has transferred to a different TPG plastic using the old cert is fraudulent, dishonest and frankly disgusting that anyone would promote such actions.

    I think it very much depends upon what it’s used for. For example, if the owner of the coin wants to retain the label and offer it with the coin (to show what NGC graded it previously), I see no problem with that.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 11,639 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @coinbuf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    I have said this before but it bears repeating; once the coin has transferred to a different TPG plastic using the old cert is fraudulent, dishonest and frankly disgusting that anyone would promote such actions.

    I think it very much depends upon what it’s used for. For example, if the owner of the coin wants to retain the label and offer it with the coin (to show what NGC graded it previously), I see no problem with that.

    That is not the issue Mark, using an old cert in the NGC registry for a coin that has been crossed is the issue.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinbuf said:

    @MFeld said:

    @coinbuf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    I have said this before but it bears repeating; once the coin has transferred to a different TPG plastic using the old cert is fraudulent, dishonest and frankly disgusting that anyone would promote such actions.

    I think it very much depends upon what it’s used for. For example, if the owner of the coin wants to retain the label and offer it with the coin (to show what NGC graded it previously), I see no problem with that.

    That is not the issue Mark, using an old cert in the NGC registry for a coin that has been crossed is the issue.

    Got it. I had interpreted your comment much more generally then that.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @fiftysevener said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The designation isn't that tough. Many are lost in cross overs. I've killed numerous star designated pieces this way over the years.

    Star coins lost in crossovers leave me speechless. Many here think NGC coins are graded higher than PCGS would grade. So if NGC doesn't think it deserves the next higher grade but merits a Star for whatever attribute it has, why would you forfeit the exceptional Star marker [and of course value] just to get a now generic PCGS grade ?

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    2. Why would someone cross over a star coin to PCGS in the first instance? Many people like the PCGS plastic better and/or True Views. Moreover, the coins are usually worth more in PCGS holders. There are exceptions where the NGC star designation can be worth more. This is usually for borderline coins where the star designation wasn't deserved or was only a marginal candidate to begin with. These are tend to be less expensive coins where people are only chasing labels. In those instances, it makes sense to leave the coins alone. Coins that might fetch a small NGC star premium over generic PCGS graded label include those with marginally above average cameo contrast or one sided cameos particularly from the late 1950s to the 1970s; one sided PL coinage/DPL coinage; some semi-PL coins; coins with only a scintilla of toning; etc. In other words, coins that really aren't that special to begin with but are gobbled up by NGC registry label chasers.

    Your reference to “NGC registry label chasers” strikes me as unfair and somewhat ironic. Plenty of collectors covet coins with the “star” designation without any regard to the NGC registry. And many collectors cross coins to PCGS holders or will buy only PCGS coins, because of the “PCGS Registry label”.

    I don't think I'm being unfair at all. I'm merely being realistic. There are label and registry chasers on both sides. The market so far seems to clearly favor PCGS plastic, hence the reason for my decision. For those collecting NGC star pieces as posited in your post, the coins are still NGC "stars." The coin has not changed. There is no reason to think NGC's opinion of its eye appeal has changed. The label hasn't even changed granted it now comes in a 2x3 baggy with a PCGS slab.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 11,639 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @coinbuf said:

    @MFeld said:

    @coinbuf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    I have said this before but it bears repeating; once the coin has transferred to a different TPG plastic using the old cert is fraudulent, dishonest and frankly disgusting that anyone would promote such actions.

    I think it very much depends upon what it’s used for. For example, if the owner of the coin wants to retain the label and offer it with the coin (to show what NGC graded it previously), I see no problem with that.

    That is not the issue Mark, using an old cert in the NGC registry for a coin that has been crossed is the issue.

    Got it. I had interpreted your comment much more generally then that.

    Would you consider it ok and ethical to use an old cert (PCGS or NGC) in such a manor Mark?

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinbuf said:

    @MFeld said:

    @coinbuf said:

    @MFeld said:

    @coinbuf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    I have said this before but it bears repeating; once the coin has transferred to a different TPG plastic using the old cert is fraudulent, dishonest and frankly disgusting that anyone would promote such actions.

    I think it very much depends upon what it’s used for. For example, if the owner of the coin wants to retain the label and offer it with the coin (to show what NGC graded it previously), I see no problem with that.

    That is not the issue Mark, using an old cert in the NGC registry for a coin that has been crossed is the issue.

    Got it. I had interpreted your comment much more generally then that.

    Would you consider it ok and ethical to use an old cert (PCGS or NGC) in such a manor Mark?

    To use the old cert in a registry? No.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2020 6:15PM

    @MFeld said:
    Got it. I had interpreted your comment much more generally then that.

    @coinbuf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    I have said this before but it bears repeating; once the coin has transferred to a different TPG plastic using the old cert is fraudulent, dishonest and frankly disgusting that anyone would promote such actions.

    NGC opined the coin was x grade and worthy of its star designation. Unless you believe the coin magically changes by virtue of its label and plastic holder, what difference does it make? NGC offered its opinion. There is no reason to believe that opinion has changed. Please show me in the registry rules where it states that the coin/label is no longer eligible once the coin leaves the NGC plastic grommet. There is no provision prohibiting it that I am aware of. The fact that you don't like it is immaterial. You don't get to set the rules and impose your arbitrary (and illogical) system of desires onto other registry users. I also suggest you look up the words "fraud" and "dishonest." There is no representation as to its current plastic tomb being made when you add the serial number to a NGC registry set. Since there is no factual representation, there can be no "fraud" or "dishonesty." You own the coin. I'm not advocating adding labels for coins that you don't have. I'll also add, there is precedent for ignoring the plastic and labels in coin registries. For instance, PCGS has used estimated grades for raw or NGC coins when calculating the "all time finest" sets in the past.

    Finally, I don't participate in either the PCGS or NGC registries. When I include the label with the sale, it is not my problem or concern what the new buyer does with it.

    P.S. The NGC Registry even allows PCGS coins at the present time, so what is all the fuss about? Also in PCGS's terms of use/rules, it explicitly requires the coin to be "CURRENTLY" in a PCGS holder. I see no such language on NGC's site. Had NGC intended that result it could have plainly done so.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    To use the old cert in a registry? No.

    Does it change your opinion that NGC now allows PCGS coins into its registry? Take for instance, a coin that was in a NGC MS66* holder and is now in a PCGS MS66 holder.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @MFeld said:
    To use the old cert in a registry? No.

    Does it change your opinion that NGC now allows PCGS coins into its registry? Take for instance, a coin that was in a NGC MS66* holder and is now in a PCGS MS66 holder.

    I think it would be improper to use any label in a registry for a coin that’s no longer in the holder the label was in.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can't say for sure with NGC, but with PCGS the insert is their property as stated in the member agreement. technically, if a coin is cracked from a holder the insert should be returned to PCGS, and I suspect it's the same for NGC.

    all the self-righteous posturing about using the inserts and "fraud" is wasted talk.

  • fiftysevenerfiftysevener Posts: 921 ✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @fiftysevener said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The designation isn't that tough. Many are lost in cross overs. I've killed numerous star designated pieces this way over the years.

    Star coins lost in crossovers leave me speechless. Many here think NGC coins are graded higher than PCGS would grade. So if NGC doesn't think it deserves the next higher grade but merits a Star for whatever attribute it has, why would you forfeit the exceptional Star marker [and of course value] just to get a now generic PCGS grade ?

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    2. Why would someone cross over a star coin to PCGS in the first instance? Many people like the PCGS plastic better and/or True Views. Moreover, the coins are usually worth more in PCGS holders. There are exceptions where the NGC star designation can be worth more. This is usually for borderline coins where the star designation wasn't deserved or was only a marginal candidate to begin with. These are tend to be less expensive coins where people are only chasing labels. In those instances, it makes sense to leave the coins alone. Coins that might fetch a small NGC star premium over generic PCGS graded label include those with marginally above average cameo contrast or one sided cameos particularly from the late 1950s to the 1970s; one sided PL coinage/DPL coinage; some semi-PL coins; coins with only a scintilla of toning; etc. In other words, coins that really aren't that special to begin with but are gobbled up by NGC registry label chasers.

    Your reference to “NGC registry label chasers” strikes me as unfair and somewhat ironic. Plenty of collectors covet coins with the “star” designation without any regard to the NGC registry. And many collectors cross coins to PCGS holders or will buy only PCGS coins, because of the “PCGS Registry label”.

    As far as NGC registry goes I think it is now more meaningless than ever. Just recently the number one Eisenhower Proof Silver set (which has only 5 slots) and consisted of all 5 coins in NGC Pf 69 Star Ultra Cameo was beat by a PCGS set that had all 5 coins in PCGS Pf 70 DCam. Never mind NGC doesn't grade proof 70's for dates 71-74. These 69 Star UCam coins have early strike heavy contrast while many of the PCGS Pf 70 DCam coins do not and some even have milk spots. Just one account of a terrible decision by NGC to allow PCGS coins to be scored.

  • fiftysevenerfiftysevener Posts: 921 ✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @MFeld said:
    Got it. I had interpreted your comment much more generally then that.

    @coinbuf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    I have said this before but it bears repeating; once the coin has transferred to a different TPG plastic using the old cert is fraudulent, dishonest and frankly disgusting that anyone would promote such actions.

    NGC opined the coin was x grade and worthy of its star designation. Unless you believe the coin magically changes by virtue of its label and plastic holder, what difference does it make? NGC offered its opinion. There is no reason to believe that opinion has changed. Please show me in the registry rules where it states that the coin/label is no longer eligible once the coin leaves the NGC plastic grommet. There is no provision prohibiting it that I am aware of. The fact that you don't like it is immaterial. You don't get to set the rules and impose your arbitrary (and illogical) system of desires onto other registry users. I also suggest you look up the words "fraud" and "dishonest." There is no representation as to its current plastic tomb being made when you add the serial number to a NGC registry set. Since there is no factual representation, there can be no "fraud" or "dishonesty." You own the coin. I'm not advocating adding labels for coins that you don't have. I'll also add, there is precedent for ignoring the plastic and labels in coin registries. For instance, PCGS has used estimated grades for raw or NGC coins when calculating the "all time finest" sets in the past.

    Finally, I don't participate in either the PCGS or NGC registries. When I include the label with the sale, it is not my problem or concern what the new buyer does with it.

    P.S. The NGC Registry even allows PCGS coins at the present time, so what is all the fuss about? Also in PCGS's terms of use/rules, it explicitly requires the coin to be "CURRENTLY" in a PCGS holder. I see no such language on NGC's site. Had NGC intended that result it could have plainly done so.

    Once the coin is removed from the NGC holder it connot be assumed that it is THE coin that NGC graded and could be considered fraudulent to present it as such.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fiftysevener said:

    @MFeld said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @fiftysevener said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The designation isn't that tough. Many are lost in cross overs. I've killed numerous star designated pieces this way over the years.

    Star coins lost in crossovers leave me speechless. Many here think NGC coins are graded higher than PCGS would grade. So if NGC doesn't think it deserves the next higher grade but merits a Star for whatever attribute it has, why would you forfeit the exceptional Star marker [and of course value] just to get a now generic PCGS grade ?

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    2. Why would someone cross over a star coin to PCGS in the first instance? Many people like the PCGS plastic better and/or True Views. Moreover, the coins are usually worth more in PCGS holders. There are exceptions where the NGC star designation can be worth more. This is usually for borderline coins where the star designation wasn't deserved or was only a marginal candidate to begin with. These are tend to be less expensive coins where people are only chasing labels. In those instances, it makes sense to leave the coins alone. Coins that might fetch a small NGC star premium over generic PCGS graded label include those with marginally above average cameo contrast or one sided cameos particularly from the late 1950s to the 1970s; one sided PL coinage/DPL coinage; some semi-PL coins; coins with only a scintilla of toning; etc. In other words, coins that really aren't that special to begin with but are gobbled up by NGC registry label chasers.

    Your reference to “NGC registry label chasers” strikes me as unfair and somewhat ironic. Plenty of collectors covet coins with the “star” designation without any regard to the NGC registry. And many collectors cross coins to PCGS holders or will buy only PCGS coins, because of the “PCGS Registry label”.

    As far as NGC registry goes I think it is now more meaningless than ever. Just recently the number one Eisenhower Proof Silver set (which has only 5 slots) and consisted of all 5 coins in NGC Pf 69 Star Ultra Cameo was beat by a PCGS set that had all 5 coins in PCGS Pf 70 DCam. Never mind NGC doesn't grade proof 70's for dates 71-74. These 69 Star UCam coins have early strike heavy contrast while many of the PCGS Pf 70 DCam coins do not and some even have milk spots. Just one account of a terrible decision by NGC to allow PCGS coins to be scored.

    And yet many collectors were very unhappy when PCGS coins weren’t allowed to be included. So many of them probably feel differently than you do.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • fiftysevenerfiftysevener Posts: 921 ✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @fiftysevener said:

    @MFeld said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @fiftysevener said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The designation isn't that tough. Many are lost in cross overs. I've killed numerous star designated pieces this way over the years.

    Star coins lost in crossovers leave me speechless. Many here think NGC coins are graded higher than PCGS would grade. So if NGC doesn't think it deserves the next higher grade but merits a Star for whatever attribute it has, why would you forfeit the exceptional Star marker [and of course value] just to get a now generic PCGS grade ?

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    2. Why would someone cross over a star coin to PCGS in the first instance? Many people like the PCGS plastic better and/or True Views. Moreover, the coins are usually worth more in PCGS holders. There are exceptions where the NGC star designation can be worth more. This is usually for borderline coins where the star designation wasn't deserved or was only a marginal candidate to begin with. These are tend to be less expensive coins where people are only chasing labels. In those instances, it makes sense to leave the coins alone. Coins that might fetch a small NGC star premium over generic PCGS graded label include those with marginally above average cameo contrast or one sided cameos particularly from the late 1950s to the 1970s; one sided PL coinage/DPL coinage; some semi-PL coins; coins with only a scintilla of toning; etc. In other words, coins that really aren't that special to begin with but are gobbled up by NGC registry label chasers.

    Your reference to “NGC registry label chasers” strikes me as unfair and somewhat ironic. Plenty of collectors covet coins with the “star” designation without any regard to the NGC registry. And many collectors cross coins to PCGS holders or will buy only PCGS coins, because of the “PCGS Registry label”.

    As far as NGC registry goes I think it is now more meaningless than ever. Just recently the number one Eisenhower Proof Silver set (which has only 5 slots) and consisted of all 5 coins in NGC Pf 69 Star Ultra Cameo was beat by a PCGS set that had all 5 coins in PCGS Pf 70 DCam. Never mind NGC doesn't grade proof 70's for dates 71-74. These 69 Star UCam coins have early strike heavy contrast while many of the PCGS Pf 70 DCam coins do not and some even have milk spots. Just one account of a terrible decision by NGC to allow PCGS coins to be scored.

    And yet many collectors were very unhappy when PCGS coins weren’t allowed to be included. So many of them probably feel differently than you do.

    And yes Mark some have felt left out of PCGS registry with their NGC coins as well. Oh and just how would PCGS score Star coins if ever they were allowed in the PCGS registry ?

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fiftysevener said:

    @MFeld said:

    @fiftysevener said:

    @MFeld said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @fiftysevener said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The designation isn't that tough. Many are lost in cross overs. I've killed numerous star designated pieces this way over the years.

    Star coins lost in crossovers leave me speechless. Many here think NGC coins are graded higher than PCGS would grade. So if NGC doesn't think it deserves the next higher grade but merits a Star for whatever attribute it has, why would you forfeit the exceptional Star marker [and of course value] just to get a now generic PCGS grade ?

    1. NGC merely renders an opinion on the coin. At no point does the coin change. Notably, PCGS always sends backs the original TPG label after a cross over. You can retain it if you wish and sell it along with the piece. I do. If someone wishes to use the coin in a NGC registry, they are free to do so.

    2. Why would someone cross over a star coin to PCGS in the first instance? Many people like the PCGS plastic better and/or True Views. Moreover, the coins are usually worth more in PCGS holders. There are exceptions where the NGC star designation can be worth more. This is usually for borderline coins where the star designation wasn't deserved or was only a marginal candidate to begin with. These are tend to be less expensive coins where people are only chasing labels. In those instances, it makes sense to leave the coins alone. Coins that might fetch a small NGC star premium over generic PCGS graded label include those with marginally above average cameo contrast or one sided cameos particularly from the late 1950s to the 1970s; one sided PL coinage/DPL coinage; some semi-PL coins; coins with only a scintilla of toning; etc. In other words, coins that really aren't that special to begin with but are gobbled up by NGC registry label chasers.

    Your reference to “NGC registry label chasers” strikes me as unfair and somewhat ironic. Plenty of collectors covet coins with the “star” designation without any regard to the NGC registry. And many collectors cross coins to PCGS holders or will buy only PCGS coins, because of the “PCGS Registry label”.

    As far as NGC registry goes I think it is now more meaningless than ever. Just recently the number one Eisenhower Proof Silver set (which has only 5 slots) and consisted of all 5 coins in NGC Pf 69 Star Ultra Cameo was beat by a PCGS set that had all 5 coins in PCGS Pf 70 DCam. Never mind NGC doesn't grade proof 70's for dates 71-74. These 69 Star UCam coins have early strike heavy contrast while many of the PCGS Pf 70 DCam coins do not and some even have milk spots. Just one account of a terrible decision by NGC to allow PCGS coins to be scored.

    And yet many collectors were very unhappy when PCGS coins weren’t allowed to be included. So many of them probably feel differently than you do.

    And yes Mark some have felt left out of PCGS registry with their NGC coins as well. Oh and just how would PCGS score Star coins if ever they were allowed in the PCGS registry ?

    I’m not making any suggestions regarding how one company’s registry should handle coins graded by another. I was just pointing out that plenty of others have a different opinion than yours on NGC’s registry.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,169 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020 1:36PM

    @fiftysevener said:
    Once the coin is removed from the NGC holder it connot be assumed that it is THE coin that NGC graded and could be considered fraudulent to present it as such.

    This is not necessarily true. If you cracked the coin, sent it to PCGS yourself, or have high quality images of the coin in the slab then you can be sure it is the same coin. People post all the time that they use images after a cross as evidence to have JA re-bean a coin. No one even bats an eye at that. I understand that you and a few others may find it distasteful or in poor form. Being subjectively distasteful is not the same as being "fraudulent" nor is it "dishonest."

  • BodinBodin Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    ..............................make thread titles like this??

    "You alright?.....I learned it by watching you."

    How I pay the bills:
    https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
  • BodinBodin Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭

    https://youtu.be/Y-Elr5K2Vuo

    How I pay the bills:
    https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/

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