No MS70 grades prior to 1960?

Dave99B · July 4, 2020 8:09PM

Slow TV tonight...very slow, so I’m watching Rick Tomaska selling coins.

Rick just made the statement that ‘No coins have been graded MS70 prior to the 1960’. I’m assuming he meant PCGS/NGC.

He’s pretty knowledgeable, but is this true???

Dave

AUandAG · July 4, 2020 8:14PM

Yes, I suspect that that statement is very true. First off nobody ever considered able to get a 70 on a coin. 65 was ultra high and then understand there were no grading services back in those days. I remember G, F, VF, XF, AU and MS. In MS I remember Choice and Gem. PCGS and NGC did not exist yet.

bob

Dave99B · July 4, 2020 8:23PM

I’m assuming he meant no coins dated before 1960 have been graded MS70.

Dave

oldabeintx · July 4, 2020 8:59PM

Would be interesting to know when the first coin was graded MS70. If I recall correctly, MS70 was for many years only a theoretical grade as perfection was considered unobtainable. Still the case IMO.

SanctionII · July 4, 2020 9:02PM

It will happen, eventually. Perhaps the 1919 MS69 RD cent will upgrade.

messydesk · July 4, 2020 10:07PM

@SanctionII said:
It will happen, eventually. Perhaps the 1919 MS69 RD cent will upgrade.

I'd like to say that coin is too high profile to upgrade, but who am I kidding. Nevertheless, I think it'll be a proof cent, nickel, or dime that pushes back the earliest date on a 70, and only by a couple years.

Timbuk3 · July 5, 2020 1:06AM

Interesting !!!

ricko · July 5, 2020 3:33AM

One would think that there is a super premium coin, minted prior to 1960, somewhere in a private collection (perhaps a gift from or to a mint director or politician) that has rested in protection from handling, but never submitted. Since such practices were known to happen, that coin (or coins) may well be out there. Cheers, RickO

PerryHall · July 5, 2020 4:14AM

I remember before the third party grading services came along, the MS70 grade was considered a theoretical grade and was never used since an MS70 was reserved for a coin that is perfect and there is no such thing as a totally perfect coin. Now an MS70 coin is any coin with no visible defect under 5X magnification.

BillJones · July 5, 2020 4:27AM

Wrong!

When Dr. Sheldon introduced his grading scale in 1948 in his “Early American Cents” book, there were a few cents that he listed as “MS-70” which defined the best of their kind. Today it’s the one EAC grade that is more strict today than it was then. You must remember that Sheldon didn’t use any of the numbers between 65 and 70. There were only three Mint State grades, 60, 65 and 70.

Today I don’t think that NGC or PCGS have assigned any PR or MS-70 grades to coins dated 1960 and before. The theory is that none of them were made well enough to qualify for the grade. That might be true, but any rate it’s a current fact.

Jimnight · July 5, 2020 4:35AM

I personally think MS70 is a big joke.

PerryHall · July 5, 2020 5:06AM

@Billjones---We'll have to agree to disagree. I was heavily into coin collecting in the mid 1960's and I never saw a single coin graded by a reputable dealer as MS70. Can you or anyone else here show me a major coin dealer price list or auction catalogue from before the advent of third party grading that shows an MS70 coin listed?

TurtleCat · July 5, 2020 5:17AM

Whether MS70 is a real grade or not depends a great deal on which standard you’re adhering to. Certainly the top TPGs use similar standards but not the same. It adds to the puzzle.

When I was younger I was taught MS70 is “as struck” as if you removed it carefully after being struck. Even if there are flaws they pre-existed in that situation and were irrelevant.

Certainly the hobby has shifted the definition some since then. The definitely will probably shift again and some of those earlier 69 grades will move to 70.

Zoins · July 5, 2020 5:28AM

@BillJones said:
When Dr. Sheldon introduced his grading scale in 1948 in his “Early American Cents” book, there were a few cents that he listed as “MS-70” which defined the best of their kind.

Are these MS70 cents identifiable?

PerryHall · July 5, 2020 5:36AM

@Zoins said:

@BillJones said:
When Dr. Sheldon introduced his grading scale in 1948 in his “Early American Cents” book, there were a few cents that he listed as “MS-70” which defined the best of their kind.

Are these MS70 cents identifiable?

If there are any they were probably some of the large cents that were stolen by Sheldon from the American Numismatic Society.

isaiah58 · July 5, 2020 5:38AM

@messydesk said:
I'd like to say that coin is too high profile to upgrade, but who am I kidding. Nevertheless, I think it'll be a proof cent, nickel, or dime that pushes back the earliest date on a 70, and only by a couple years.

A Proof would then be a PR70, not a MS70, unless the grading company improperly catagorizes the coin. I have seen proof Franklins in MS holders, but only from lower tier services.

Zoins · July 5, 2020 5:39AM

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:

@BillJones said:
When Dr. Sheldon introduced his grading scale in 1948 in his “Early American Cents” book, there were a few cents that he listed as “MS-70” which defined the best of their kind.

Are these MS70 cents identifiable?

If there are any they were probably some of the large cents that were stolen by Sheldon from the American Numismatic Society.

Is there a list of the lost / stolen coins? Were any recovered?

PerryHall · July 5, 2020 5:54AM

@Zoins said:

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:

@BillJones said:
When Dr. Sheldon introduced his grading scale in 1948 in his “Early American Cents” book, there were a few cents that he listed as “MS-70” which defined the best of their kind.

Are these MS70 cents identifiable?

If there are any they were probably some of the large cents that were stolen by Sheldon from the American Numismatic Society.

Is there a list of the lost / stolen coins?

Don't know. I remember a lawsuit by the ANS against the Sheldon estate to get their coins back so there should be a list somewhere. For those here who aren't aware, the ANS allowed Sheldon to research their collection of large cents. When the ANS had a better example than what Sheldon had in his collection, Sheldon would just swap coins to upgrade his own collection at the expense of the ANS. Later researchers using the ANS collection discovered the theft since each coin had been carefully researched and cataloged. It's a real shame that brilliant numismatic researchers like Sheldon and Breen were such unsavory characters.

BillJones · July 5, 2020 10:40AM

@PerryHall said:
@Billjones---We'll have to agree to disagree. I was heavily into coin collecting in the mid 1960's and I never saw a single coin graded by a reputable dealer as MS70. Can you or anyone else here show me a major coin dealer price list or auction catalogue from before the advent of third party grading that shows an MS70 coin listed?

I was referring to what Sheldon wrote in his two books. He listed the number of finest known pieces from some lists he must have kept. He called the very best coins "MS-70" because he thought that they were worth 70 times his basal values. Later in "Penny Whimsey" he admitted that his pricing system was not working and tried to save it by saying such coins were worth two to four times more than his Basal State value X the grading the points.

Sheldon never said that his MS-70 coins were "perfect." What he did say was that they were the best of the best and had a value that was 70 times the basal value he assigned to each variety. In a way, his pricing system was a handy way to avoid long lists of varieties and grades. The trouble was it didn't work.

What I wrote had nothing to do with the grades dealers were putting on coins in the mid 1960s.

CaptHenway · July 5, 2020 10:43AM

While I was at ANACS we graded a $20 Saint as a Proof-70. It was all there.

Sonorandesertrat · July 5, 2020 10:53AM

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:

@BillJones said:
When Dr. Sheldon introduced his grading scale in 1948 in his “Early American Cents” book, there were a few cents that he listed as “MS-70” which defined the best of their kind.

Are these MS70 cents identifiable?

If there are any they were probably some of the large cents that were stolen by Sheldon from the American Numismatic Society.

Is there a list of the lost / stolen coins?

Don't know. I remember a lawsuit by the ANS against the Sheldon estate to get their coins back so there should be a list somewhere. For those here who aren't aware, the ANS allowed Sheldon to research their collection of large cents. When the ANS had a better example than what Sheldon had in his collection, Sheldon would just swap coins to upgrade his own collection at the expense of the ANS. Later researchers using the ANS collection discovered the theft since each coin had been carefully researched and cataloged. It's a real shame that brilliant numismatic researchers like Sheldon and Breen were such unsavory characters.

Ted Naftzger bought Sheldon's collection (after the thefts from the ANS and other collections). Sheldon is thought to have switched a few coins just before handing his collection over to Naftzger. Since title to stolen property could not have legally been transferred to Naftzger, the ANS sued him and won (after protracted court battles).

BillJones · July 5, 2020 10:57AM

Since title to stolen property could not have legally been transferred to Naftzger, the ANS sued him and won (after protracted court battles).

This is the law as I learned in my business law courses in college.

It's off topic, but how can someone steal the title to someone's house on-line and be able to to convey a clear title to someone who buys it from the thief? These title protection outfits claim they can in their ads.

messydesk · July 5, 2020 12:09PM

@isaiah58 said:

@messydesk said:
I'd like to say that coin is too high profile to upgrade, but who am I kidding. Nevertheless, I think it'll be a proof cent, nickel, or dime that pushes back the earliest date on a 70, and only by a couple years.

A Proof would then be a PR70, not a MS70, unless the grading company improperly catagorizes the coin. I have seen proof Franklins in MS holders, but only from lower tier services.

Right. I guess I was referring to the 70 grade in general. I think all the older MS69 coins are either too well known (aforementioned 1919 cent, Jack Lee 1896-S dollar) and/or present too high of a risk to crack out and resubmit, since they're Pop 1/0 or nearly that. I don't think you can do a reconsideration for a grade higher than 69 unless those rules have changed.

asheland · July 5, 2020 12:38PM

Weren’t there some large cents graded MS69 by PCGS? I thought I saw it in their literature, older stuff from the 90’s, OGHs...

cameonut2011 · July 5, 2020 12:46PM

@BillJones said:

Since title to stolen property could not have legally been transferred to Naftzger, the ANS sued him and won (after protracted court battles).

This is the law as I learned in my business law courses in college.

It's off topic, but how can someone steal the title to someone's house on-line and be able to to convey a clear title to someone who buys it from the thief? These title protection outfits claim they can in their ads.

They can’t; however, to block encumbrances fraudulently placed on it and to prevent clouds on the title, it might be necessary to file suit to quiet title.It can be a nightmare and cost money to straighten up. Also, most thieves take out HELOCS. When the bank goes to foreclose, it creates unnecessary mess and stress.

Zoins · July 5, 2020 1:02PM

@Sonorandesertrat said:

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:

@BillJones said:
When Dr. Sheldon introduced his grading scale in 1948 in his “Early American Cents” book, there were a few cents that he listed as “MS-70” which defined the best of their kind.

Are these MS70 cents identifiable?

If there are any they were probably some of the large cents that were stolen by Sheldon from the American Numismatic Society.

Is there a list of the lost / stolen coins?

Don't know. I remember a lawsuit by the ANS against the Sheldon estate to get their coins back so there should be a list somewhere. For those here who aren't aware, the ANS allowed Sheldon to research their collection of large cents. When the ANS had a better example than what Sheldon had in his collection, Sheldon would just swap coins to upgrade his own collection at the expense of the ANS. Later researchers using the ANS collection discovered the theft since each coin had been carefully researched and cataloged. It's a real shame that brilliant numismatic researchers like Sheldon and Breen were such unsavory characters.

Ted Naftzger bought Sheldon's collection (after the thefts from the ANS and other collections). Sheldon is thought to have switched a few coins just before handing his collection over to Naftzger. Since title to stolen property could not have legally been transferred to Naftzger, the ANS sued him and won (after protracted court battles).

Since the ANS won the suit, did they get all their coins back?

Was Naftzger made whole?

Sonorandesertrat · July 5, 2020 1:12PM

'Since the ANS won the suit, did they get all their coins back?' I think (but am not certain) that the ANS got most of them back. Some were let go by the ANS, in exchange for a cash settlement. I also don't remember whether Naftzger had all of the ANS (Clapp) coins Sheldon took--remember that the court fights took place years after the theft of the coins.

'Was Naftzger made whole?' Considering what he spent on legal fees alone, I can't see how.

JesseKraft · July 5, 2020 1:21PM

@Zoins said:

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:

@BillJones said:
When Dr. Sheldon introduced his grading scale in 1948 in his “Early American Cents” book, there were a few cents that he listed as “MS-70” which defined the best of their kind.

Are these MS70 cents identifiable?

If there are any they were probably some of the large cents that were stolen by Sheldon from the American Numismatic Society.

Is there a list of the lost / stolen coins? Were any recovered?

Yes and yes. There are still some out there, however. Some high profile large cent collectors know where they are, too, but have too much vested to do the right thing.

Zoins · July 5, 2020 1:23PM

@JesseKraft said:

@Zoins said:

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:

@BillJones said:
When Dr. Sheldon introduced his grading scale in 1948 in his “Early American Cents” book, there were a few cents that he listed as “MS-70” which defined the best of their kind.

Are these MS70 cents identifiable?

If there are any they were probably some of the large cents that were stolen by Sheldon from the American Numismatic Society.

Is there a list of the lost / stolen coins? Were any recovered?

Yes and yes. There are still some out there, however. Some high profile large cent collectors know where they are, too, but have too much vested to do the right thing.

Is the list of outstanding coins available online?

JesseKraft · July 5, 2020 1:33PM

@Zoins said:

@JesseKraft said:

@Zoins said:

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:

@BillJones said:
When Dr. Sheldon introduced his grading scale in 1948 in his “Early American Cents” book, there were a few cents that he listed as “MS-70” which defined the best of their kind.

Are these MS70 cents identifiable?

If there are any they were probably some of the large cents that were stolen by Sheldon from the American Numismatic Society.

Is there a list of the lost / stolen coins? Were any recovered?

Yes and yes. There are still some out there, however. Some high profile large cent collectors know where they are, too, but have too much vested to do the right thing.

Is the list of outstanding coins available online?

Not that I'm aware of, or else they'd disappear forever. A few times, we've located some, tried to retrieve them and <POOF!> they disappear again. Also, it wasn't just the ANS collection that Sheldon did this too, but several. While Sheldon stole the coins, Naftzger was just as much as fault since he knew they were hot when he purchased them. Watch here! Though you may lose respect for some people who are still in the business. I know I did.

SanctionII · July 5, 2020 1:49PM

In house title thefts situations many things happen. However one must remember what the law requires for there to be a valid conveyance of title.

Intent on the part of the owner to convey, compliance with the statute of frauds (a deed signed by the owner who is conveying title), delivery of the deed to the grantee and acceptance by the grantee of the conveyance.

Without these things being present there is no conveyance and title remains with the owner, even if a deed records showing a conveyance to a grantee.

The conveyance is void or voidable (there are significant differences between these two concepts). In each case a lawsuit is required to obtain a court judgment that determines who the owner is and that cancels any deed sor other documents (i.e. tax lines, mortgages, deeds of trust, etc.). The recording of any such judgment restores record title to the true owner of the property.

Cases like this can include a forged deed (which is void), plus multiple subsequent deeds purporting to convey the property, plus multiple loans taken out on the property from lenders. All of these deeds and loan recorded against the property downstream in time from the forged deed are invalid and do not deprive the owner of title to the property.

The title lock services being advertised do nothing to prevent the issuance and recording against your property of bogus deeds, loans, etc. The best these services can do is check title to your property from time to time and alert you when something is recorded against your property.

The thing is that you can do the same thing, yourself, for free in about five minutes from your desktop, laptop or phone.

KindaNewish · July 5, 2020 4:31PM

@JesseKraft said:

. Watch here! Though you may lose respect for some people who are still in the business. I know I did.

A superb presentation, and well worth an hour to watch.
There are so many scumbags in this field, its so pleasing to know that historians will eventually unravel the thievery. I hope the ANS collection will eventually be made whole.

"she plays the violin, so you know that she's on the good side"

Anyway, this is from the September 1989 PCGS population report. Of the 1.3 million rattlers made between 1986 and Sept 89, only 13 earned MS-70.

No MS70 grades prior to 1960?

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