@doubledragon said:
Tom Brady takes care of himself really well. He could play until he's 50 if he wanted to. Heck, look at Brett Favre, he was 65 when he finally retired.
NFL Retirement? I thought Detroit might re-sign Jason Hanson to a new contract.
But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
The name Mickey Mantle helps also. It's just a cool baseball name. The name Mickey Mantle just rolls right off the tongue. The fact that he played for the Yankees doesn't hurt either. I often wonder if his name was Bob Smith and he played for the Indians what his cards prices would be.
But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
Arthur
@doubledragon said:
The name Mickey Mantle helps also. It's just a cool baseball name. The name Mickey Mantle just rolls right off the tongue. The fact that he played for the Yankees doesn't hurt either. I often wonder if his name was Bob Smith and he played for the Indians what his cards prices would be.
Curious how many of you arm chair quarterbacks who probably were lucky to play no higher than jv in high school ever saw Mantle play? Absolutely comical
I don't think either of them are overrated. I believe Trout is a "wait and see". And I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket by loading up on Trout. I would load up on the Mick.
But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
Arthur
@doubledragon said:
The name Mickey Mantle helps also. It's just a cool baseball name. The name Mickey Mantle just rolls right off the tongue. The fact that he played for the Yankees doesn't hurt either. I often wonder if his name was Bob Smith and he played for the Indians what his cards prices would be.
Curious how many of you arm chair quarterbacks who probably were lucky to play no higher than jv in high school ever saw Mantle play? Absolutely comical
You need to read again. Nobody is saying Mantle wasn’t a terrific player. He was even better than most HOFers. We’re just saying he wasn’t one of the top 4-5 players of all time, as his hobby standing would suggest.
I’m doubting you ever saw Walter Johnson pitch. Sports fans have opinions and we discuss them.
@doubledragon said:
The name Mickey Mantle helps also. It's just a cool baseball name. The name Mickey Mantle just rolls right off the tongue. The fact that he played for the Yankees doesn't hurt either. I often wonder if his name was Bob Smith and he played for the Indians what his cards prices would be.
We'll never know exactly, but we do know this Bob Smith played for the Braves, which is essentially a subset of Indians, and he sold for over $200 with shipping:
And this Bob Smith played for Pittsburgh, which is nearly a suburb of Cleveland, and he commanded $125 in PSA 9:
On the other hand, this Bob Smith did play for Cleveland, just not the Indians. Must be a pretty low pop, because someone ponied up $180:
Finally, you have Joe Smith, who did play for the Indians. While not Bob Smith, I think we can all agree Joe is the equivalent of Bob (with all due respect to Joes everywhere). Even Dean's Cards has Cleveland Indians Joe listed at 99 cents, so perhaps name and team does factor in:
What have we learned here? Quite simply, that Miguel Cabrera is better than both Trout and Mantle as well as Smiths everywhere.
But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
Arthur
@doubledragon said:
The name Mickey Mantle helps also. It's just a cool baseball name. The name Mickey Mantle just rolls right off the tongue. The fact that he played for the Yankees doesn't hurt either. I often wonder if his name was Bob Smith and he played for the Indians what his cards prices would be.
Curious how many of you arm chair quarterbacks who probably were lucky to play no higher than jv in high school ever saw Mantle play? Absolutely comical
You need to read again. Nobody is saying Mantle wasn’t a terrific player. He was even better than most HOFers. We’re just saying he wasn’t one of the top 4-5 players of all time, as his hobby standing would suggest.
I’m doubting you ever saw Walter Johnson pitch. Sports fans have opinions and we discuss them.
That's a good observation. I am just going to put my 2 cents in and list below my top 4 greatest everyday players of all time. No room for 5 on this list. Here it goes:
If you're into advanced metrics, then it's pretty impressive that Trout is only 28 years old and has only played 9 seasons and he is already 7th all time in WAR and Offensive WAR among center fielders. He is also 5th all time in JAWS and 3rd all time in WAR7 for center fielders. He has quite a few more years ahead of him to add to those totals before his decline years as well.
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@orioles93 said:
If you're into advanced metrics, then it's pretty impressive that Trout is only 28 years old and has only played 9 seasons and he is already 7th all time in WAR and Offensive WAR among center fielders. He is also 5th all time in JAWS for center fielders. He has quite a few more years ahead of him to add to those totals before his decline years as well.
Yeah but it's all about the Dingers, it's ALWAYS about the Dingers...
@orioles93 said:
If you're into advanced metrics, then it's pretty impressive that Trout is only 28 years old and has only played 9 seasons and he is already 7th all time in WAR and Offensive WAR among center fielders. He is also 5th all time in JAWS for center fielders. He has quite a few more years ahead of him to add to those totals before his decline years as well.
Yeah but it's all about the Dingers, it's ALWAYS about the Dingers...
chaz
Adam Dunn and Dave Kingman must be top 2 all time then lol. Thats all they did.
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@orioles93 said:
If you're into advanced metrics, then it's pretty impressive that Trout is only 28 years old and has only played 9 seasons and he is already 7th all time in WAR and Offensive WAR among center fielders. He is also 5th all time in JAWS for center fielders. He has quite a few more years ahead of him to add to those totals before his decline years as well.
Yeah but it's all about the Dingers, it's ALWAYS about the Dingers...
chaz
Adam Dunn and Dave Kingman must be top 2 all time then lol. Thats all they did.
C'mon...we both know it's cumulative of all statistics but the absolute barometer is the Dingers... besides neither of them hit over 500 which is the benchmark.
@orioles93 said:
If you're into advanced metrics, then it's pretty impressive that Trout is only 28 years old and has only played 9 seasons and he is already 7th all time in WAR and Offensive WAR among center fielders. He is also 5th all time in JAWS for center fielders. He has quite a few more years ahead of him to add to those totals before his decline years as well.
Yeah but it's all about the Dingers, it's ALWAYS about the Dingers...
chaz
Adam Dunn and Dave Kingman must be top 2 all time then lol. Thats all they did.
C'mon...we both know it's cumulative of all statistics but the absolute barometer is the Dingers... besides neither of them hit over 500 which is the benchmark.
chaz
I was kidding, though I do disagree that the absolute barometer is dingers. It just isn't for me. It may be for you or someone else, but I look at how good a player is as a whole in all aspects of the game, not just dingers, hence why I tend to look at advanced metrics a bit more. They take everything into account rather than just one thing. Just my personal opinion but I think as long as Trout stays relatively healthy later into his career, he will blow past almost every one of Mantle's career totals. I'm not taking anything away from Mantle, I mean we are literally talking about 2 of the best CFs of all time here and comparing them.
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@orioles93 said:
If you're into advanced metrics, then it's pretty impressive that Trout is only 28 years old and has only played 9 seasons and he is already 7th all time in WAR and Offensive WAR among center fielders. He is also 5th all time in JAWS for center fielders. He has quite a few more years ahead of him to add to those totals before his decline years as well.
Yeah but it's all about the Dingers, it's ALWAYS about the Dingers...
chaz
Adam Dunn and Dave Kingman must be top 2 all time then lol. Thats all they did.
C'mon...we both know it's cumulative of all statistics but the absolute barometer is the Dingers... besides neither of them hit over 500 which is the benchmark.
chaz
I was kidding, though I do disagree that the absolute barometer is dingers. It just isn't for me. It may be for you or someone else, but I look at how good a player is as a whole in all aspects of the game, not just dingers, hence why I tend to look at advanced metrics a bit more. They take everything into account rather than just one thing. Just my personal opinion but I think as long as Trout stays relatively healthy later into his career, he will blow past almost every one of Mantle's career totals. I'm not taking anything away from Mantle, I mean we are literally talking about 2 of the best CFs of all time here and comparing them.
Ok, well ...what's more important than the dingers??
In my opinion, way too much emphasis on hitting, not enough on defense and speed. Also, if you take away Aaron's 755 home runs, he still had over 3000 hits, which is good enough for me. I think guys like Clemente get lost in the shuffle. Dude could knock a buzzard off a manure wagon at home plate with a throw from the warning track.
@detroitfan2 said:
In my opinion, way too much emphasis on hitting, not enough on defense and speed. Also, if you take away Aaron's 755 home runs, he still had over 3000 hits, which is good enough for me. I think guys like Clemente get lost in the shuffle. Dude could knock a buzzard off a manure wagon at home plate with a throw from the warning track.
How can anyone forget about Clemente? Excellent Points!
@detroitfan2 said:
In my opinion, way too much emphasis on hitting, not enough on defense and speed. Also, if you take away Aaron's 755 home runs, he still had over 3000 hits, which is good enough for me. I think guys like Clemente get lost in the shuffle. Dude could knock a buzzard off a manure wagon at home plate with a throw from the warning track.
How can anyone forget about Clemente? Excellent Points!
chaz
I don't think Clemente was forgotten. He didn't hit for power well enough to make the top 4.
Ted Williams was the toughest one for me to exclude because he wasn't very interested in defense and he only had average speed.
Musial is the one who gets forgotten, imo. He did it all and did it well for a very long time.
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My 11yo son and I watch a lot of hitting videos. For his body type and as a R handed hitter, I like to focus on Betts. But Trout works too. And the one thing I’ve really liked about the Trout videos is his approach to
Hitting. He states that he’s focused on gaps. R and L center. He’s looking for base hits and extra bases first. He’s surely got the power to hit more HRs, but that’s just not his focus. He knows if he sees his pitch and follows his mechanics it’ll go. As Role Models go, you could do a lot worse. And his numbers speak for themselves. Chicks dig the long ball. Guys dig metrics.
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But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
Arthur
I'm in the Mantle is UNDERrated group. Mantle had 5 seasons of OPS+ better than Willie's best. Willie was better defensively, without question. I'm very comfortable putting BOTH guys in the top 5.
But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
Arthur
I'm in the Mantle is UNDERrated group. Mantle had 5 seasons of OPS+ better than Willie's best. Willie was better defensively, without question. I'm very comfortable putting BOTH guys in the top 5.
It only goes top 4. No room for 5, that is why I excluded it. Top 4 only, now what is your top 4...it get's tough.... And I can't put the Mick over the Splendid Splinter. But now rethinking it, the Mick was best in the playoffs...so it gets real tough....
But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
Arthur
I couldn’t agree more!
You don't count being a Red Sox fan lol
They’re both Sox fans, I believe.
It’s 18 World Series home runs, fellas. And chances are it hangs there forever.
Mickey is treated like a top 5 player because he IS a top 5 player.
In 1956, he won the MLB Triple Crown - not just the A.L. Version, joining Gehrig, Hornsby, Cobb and Ted. When he retired, he was 3rd all time in home runs. Many of the guys that bumped him down the list were confirmed users - by admission or failed test. He was already a legend while still playing - that’s pretty rare. Everyone who watched him spoke of his greatness as a baseball player and deified him. The fact that he did this all as a raging alcoholic isn’t something he should be given credit for but does serve to reinforce the fact that his talent was both otherworldly and certainly somewhat untapped.
It’s also important to remember that he had enormous shoes to fill (DiMaggio) and enormous expectations to live up to (The most heralded national prospect since Bob Feller) and the fact that - for all intents and purposes - Mickey DID live up to those expectations and you have one of the five greatest baseball players of all time.
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Trout is not a 5 tool player. His defense is average to below average. His WAR gets a positional bump due to playing center, but in a few years as the knees give out due to carrying 240 pounds an d he switches to first or dh, those crazy war totals will come back to earth.
As I see it, Trout is only great at taking walks. He is a very good power hitter, a good base runner, average arm, good at hitting for average. I don't see him as a transcendent player. His ability to walk makes his ops, ops + etc high.
But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
Arthur
I couldn’t agree more!
You don't count being a Red Sox fan lol
They’re both Sox fans, I believe.
It’s 18 World Series home runs, fellas. And chances are it hangs there forever.
Mickey is treated like a top 5 player because he IS a top 5 player.
In 1956, he won the MLB Triple Crown - not just the A.L. Version, joining Gehrig, Hornsby, Cobb and Ted. When he retired, he was 3rd all time in home runs. Many of the guys that bumped him down the list were confirmed users - by admission or failed test. He was already a legend while still playing - that’s pretty rare. Everyone who watched him spoke of his greatness as a baseball player and deified him. The fact that he did this all as a raging alcoholic isn’t something he should be given credit for but does serve to reinforce the fact that his talent was both otherworldly and certainly somewhat untapped.
It’s also important to remember that he had enormous shoes to fill (DiMaggio) and enormous expectations to live up to (The most heralded national prospect since Bob Feller) and the fact that - for all intents and purposes - Mickey DID live up to those expectations and you have one of the five greatest baseball players of all time.
No top 5 only top 4....so you can't put him above the Babe...so who's left? Was Mays better? Was Aaron better? Was Williams better? I think day in and day out it has to be Aaron (Does Mick ever hit 755 Dingers for real which is really Nuts!!) and Williams ( Who last batted over .400 which is SICK!!!) over the Mick ...so it comes down to the Mick or Mays for the 4rth and final spot IMO. In the post season, if Mays or Aaron or Williams played for the Yankees, I wonder what numbers they would have put up if given the same plate appearances as the Mick. The Mick batted .255 in the post season.... I still think the Mick would have won overall with 18 post season dingers (which is Insane!!!).
It only goes top 4. No room for 5, that is why I excluded it. Top 4 only, now what is your top 4...it get's tough.... And I can't put the Mick over the Splendid Splinter. But now rethinking it, the Mick was best in the playoffs...so it gets real tough....
One thing I found interesting about Trout is he's played 8 full seasons, won 3 MVPs, came in 2nd 4 times and was 4th in the remaining season. That is pretty impressive.
Top 4? Ruth, Mays, Bonds (yeah, I know) and Schmidt.
Schmidt, you say? Well, I was 10 years old in 1974 and grew up in the Philadelphia area.
I will say, in Schmidt's defense, the years Schmidt played provided the least benefit from ballpark dimensions and expansion than the 15 years before and after.
But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
Arthur
I couldn’t agree more!
You don't count being a Red Sox fan lol
They’re both Sox fans, I believe.
It’s 18 World Series home runs, fellas. And chances are it hangs there forever.
Mickey is treated like a top 5 player because he IS a top 5 player.
In 1956, he won the MLB Triple Crown - not just the A.L. Version, joining Gehrig, Hornsby, Cobb and Ted. When he retired, he was 3rd all time in home runs. Many of the guys that bumped him down the list were confirmed users - by admission or failed test. He was already a legend while still playing - that’s pretty rare. Everyone who watched him spoke of his greatness as a baseball player and deified him. The fact that he did this all as a raging alcoholic isn’t something he should be given credit for but does serve to reinforce the fact that his talent was both otherworldly and certainly somewhat untapped.
It’s also important to remember that he had enormous shoes to fill (DiMaggio) and enormous expectations to live up to (The most heralded national prospect since Bob Feller) and the fact that - for all intents and purposes - Mickey DID live up to those expectations and you have one of the five greatest baseball players of all time.
All GREAT points. I excluded him because the other guys did it a lot longer.
Mantle hands down the most gifted player ever. Injuries and a shorter career keeps him just out of the top 4 for me.
Their OPS numbers (not ops+) were nearly the same, but Stan the Man had 2800 more plate appearances and he missed an entire season in the military.
Musial also gets points (probably only from me) for being a wonderful person. Mick, not so much.
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It only goes top 4. No room for 5, that is why I excluded it. Top 4 only, now what is your top 4...it get's tough.... And I can't put the Mick over the Splendid Splinter. But now rethinking it, the Mick was best in the playoffs...so it gets real tough....
Bonds has 762 career home runs and two batting titles. He should probably be in the top 4 if I were more objective. The only thing that kept him from 800 HR was being kept out of the league as the face of the steroid scandal.
Cy Young has 511 wins a record that will never be broken or even touched. Of those 76 were shutouts. He threw 7356 innings all with a WHIP of 1.13.
Gehrig is 2nd in consecutive games and held that record for a long time. He had 29 HR and an OPS of .930 his last year before being struck down by a disease named after him. Just missed 500 HR despite that. His average season per 162 games was .340, 37 HR and 149 RBIs. Mantle’s was .298, 36 and 102.
A-Rod has 3,115 hits and 696 HR. Beats Mantle in every counting stat and only batted 3 points less.
Henderson all time leader in SB while still getting over 3000 hits. Add in walks and you have a player who was on base over 5200 times. Still had almost 300 career home runs.
All are above Mantle in career WAR which incidentally Mantle is 16th.
@brad31 said:
Bonds has 762 career home runs and two batting titles. He should probably be in the top 4 if I were more objective. The only thing that kept him from 800 HR was being kept out of the league as the face of the steroid scandal.
Cy Young has 511 wins a record that will never be broken or even touched. Of those 76 were shutouts. He threw 7356 innings all with a WHIP of 1.13.
Gehrig is 2nd in consecutive games and held that record for a long time. He had 29 HR and an OPS of .930 his last year before being struck down by a disease named after him. Just missed 500 HR despite that. His average season per 162 games was .340, 37 HR and 149 RBIs. Mantle’s was .298, 36 and 102.
A-Rod has 3,115 hits and 696 HR. Beats Mantle in every counting stat and only batted 3 points less.
Henderson all time leader in SB while still getting over 3000 hits. Add in walks and you have a player who was on base over 5200 times. Still had almost 300 career home runs.
All are above Mantle in career WAR which incidentally Mantle is 16th.
Wow, big time numbers. You make some real good points... Gehrig and Henderson were real surprises. If Bonds & Arod didn't juice and if the Mick didn't drink (or didn't get that bad knee injury from that drain hole in center field) I wonder...what if...but all we have to go on is what it is....thanks for your input.
@Tibor said:
Trout while an excellent player, might not be in the same sentence as Mantel, It's
all about post season playing which Trout has not seen. Mantel was a perennial
star in October. In many ways post season means as much or more regular season.
This is the point exactly!!! Im not a baseball expert by any means but I have been a student of football and its stats. When the conversation turns to the greatest of all time, what is pointed out is the number of championships. Take Dan Marino for instance, Numbers wise he was the greatest for quite a stretch of time, but he never won the "big" one. I know we are talking about the HOF here BUT, the " Greatest" usually have rings
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NFL Retirement? I thought Detroit might re-sign Jason Hanson to a new contract.
I'm in the Trout is over rated group.
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I'm in the Mantle is overrated group.
But seriously, he gets treated like he was one of the best players to ever play. I'd put him in the top-25. In the hobby he gets treated like at least a top-5.
Arthur
The name Mickey Mantle helps also. It's just a cool baseball name. The name Mickey Mantle just rolls right off the tongue. The fact that he played for the Yankees doesn't hurt either. I often wonder if his name was Bob Smith and he played for the Indians what his cards prices would be.
I couldn’t agree more!
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You don't count being a Red Sox fan lol
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Curious how many of you arm chair quarterbacks who probably were lucky to play no higher than jv in high school ever saw Mantle play? Absolutely comical
I don't think either of them are overrated. I believe Trout is a "wait and see". And I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket by loading up on Trout. I would load up on the Mick.
chaz
You need to read again. Nobody is saying Mantle wasn’t a terrific player. He was even better than most HOFers. We’re just saying he wasn’t one of the top 4-5 players of all time, as his hobby standing would suggest.
I’m doubting you ever saw Walter Johnson pitch. Sports fans have opinions and we discuss them.
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We'll never know exactly, but we do know this Bob Smith played for the Braves, which is essentially a subset of Indians, and he sold for over $200 with shipping:
And this Bob Smith played for Pittsburgh, which is nearly a suburb of Cleveland, and he commanded $125 in PSA 9:
On the other hand, this Bob Smith did play for Cleveland, just not the Indians. Must be a pretty low pop, because someone ponied up $180:
Finally, you have Joe Smith, who did play for the Indians. While not Bob Smith, I think we can all agree Joe is the equivalent of Bob (with all due respect to Joes everywhere). Even Dean's Cards has Cleveland Indians Joe listed at 99 cents, so perhaps name and team does factor in:
What have we learned here? Quite simply, that Miguel Cabrera is better than both Trout and Mantle as well as Smiths everywhere.
That's a good observation. I am just going to put my 2 cents in and list below my top 4 greatest everyday players of all time. No room for 5 on this list. Here it goes:
1). Babe Ruth
2). Hank Aaron
3). Ted Williams
4). Willie Mays
chaz
And don't forget; many HOFer's lost two years of play time to military service, so he can still put up numbers with longevity, maybe.
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Mantle holds the World Series record for Home Runs. He never played in a playoff game.
Would like to see your top 4.
Would like to see your top 4 too.
If you're into advanced metrics, then it's pretty impressive that Trout is only 28 years old and has only played 9 seasons and he is already 7th all time in WAR and Offensive WAR among center fielders. He is also 5th all time in JAWS and 3rd all time in WAR7 for center fielders. He has quite a few more years ahead of him to add to those totals before his decline years as well.
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Yeah but it's all about the Dingers, it's ALWAYS about the Dingers...
chaz
Adam Dunn and Dave Kingman must be top 2 all time then lol. Thats all they did.
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C'mon...we both know it's cumulative of all statistics but the absolute barometer is the Dingers... besides neither of them hit over 500 which is the benchmark.
chaz
I was kidding, though I do disagree that the absolute barometer is dingers. It just isn't for me. It may be for you or someone else, but I look at how good a player is as a whole in all aspects of the game, not just dingers, hence why I tend to look at advanced metrics a bit more. They take everything into account rather than just one thing. Just my personal opinion but I think as long as Trout stays relatively healthy later into his career, he will blow past almost every one of Mantle's career totals. I'm not taking anything away from Mantle, I mean we are literally talking about 2 of the best CFs of all time here and comparing them.
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Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
Hank Aaron
Stan Musial
Lol - post eaten
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I think Mays and Aaron need to be on the Mt Rushmore.
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Ruth, Mays, Williams, Aaron. Mays speed passes Aaron.
Ok, well ...what's more important than the dingers??
Wow...interesting
I might be in the minority, but gotta agree with chaz on this one. It's nice to see Mays being mentioned.
In my opinion, way too much emphasis on hitting, not enough on defense and speed. Also, if you take away Aaron's 755 home runs, he still had over 3000 hits, which is good enough for me. I think guys like Clemente get lost in the shuffle. Dude could knock a buzzard off a manure wagon at home plate with a throw from the warning track.
How can anyone forget about Clemente? Excellent Points!
chaz
I don't think Clemente was forgotten. He didn't hit for power well enough to make the top 4.
Ted Williams was the toughest one for me to exclude because he wasn't very interested in defense and he only had average speed.
Musial is the one who gets forgotten, imo. He did it all and did it well for a very long time.
My 11yo son and I watch a lot of hitting videos. For his body type and as a R handed hitter, I like to focus on Betts. But Trout works too. And the one thing I’ve really liked about the Trout videos is his approach to
Hitting. He states that he’s focused on gaps. R and L center. He’s looking for base hits and extra bases first. He’s surely got the power to hit more HRs, but that’s just not his focus. He knows if he sees his pitch and follows his mechanics it’ll go. As Role Models go, you could do a lot worse. And his numbers speak for themselves. Chicks dig the long ball. Guys dig metrics.
I'm in the Mantle is UNDERrated group. Mantle had 5 seasons of OPS+ better than Willie's best. Willie was better defensively, without question. I'm very comfortable putting BOTH guys in the top 5.
It only goes top 4. No room for 5, that is why I excluded it. Top 4 only, now what is your top 4...it get's tough.... And I can't put the Mick over the Splendid Splinter. But now rethinking it, the Mick was best in the playoffs...so it gets real tough....
chaz
They’re both Sox fans, I believe.
It’s 18 World Series home runs, fellas. And chances are it hangs there forever.
Mickey is treated like a top 5 player because he IS a top 5 player.
In 1956, he won the MLB Triple Crown - not just the A.L. Version, joining Gehrig, Hornsby, Cobb and Ted. When he retired, he was 3rd all time in home runs. Many of the guys that bumped him down the list were confirmed users - by admission or failed test. He was already a legend while still playing - that’s pretty rare. Everyone who watched him spoke of his greatness as a baseball player and deified him. The fact that he did this all as a raging alcoholic isn’t something he should be given credit for but does serve to reinforce the fact that his talent was both otherworldly and certainly somewhat untapped.
It’s also important to remember that he had enormous shoes to fill (DiMaggio) and enormous expectations to live up to (The most heralded national prospect since Bob Feller) and the fact that - for all intents and purposes - Mickey DID live up to those expectations and you have one of the five greatest baseball players of all time.
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If Sox fans’ opinions don’t count because we’re supposedly biased AGAINST, then Yankees fans’ opinions don’t count because they’re biased FOR.
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Trout needs to get into the post season win minimum a championship to be part of any discussion. Needs the hardware other than individual awards.
Trout is not a 5 tool player. His defense is average to below average. His WAR gets a positional bump due to playing center, but in a few years as the knees give out due to carrying 240 pounds an d he switches to first or dh, those crazy war totals will come back to earth.
As I see it, Trout is only great at taking walks. He is a very good power hitter, a good base runner, average arm, good at hitting for average. I don't see him as a transcendent player. His ability to walk makes his ops, ops + etc high.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I did not forget Musial or Clemente. They both are in my top Mt. Rushmore 4.
No top 5 only top 4....so you can't put him above the Babe...so who's left? Was Mays better? Was Aaron better? Was Williams better? I think day in and day out it has to be Aaron (Does Mick ever hit 755 Dingers for real which is really Nuts!!) and Williams ( Who last batted over .400 which is SICK!!!) over the Mick ...so it comes down to the Mick or Mays for the 4rth and final spot IMO. In the post season, if Mays or Aaron or Williams played for the Yankees, I wonder what numbers they would have put up if given the same plate appearances as the Mick. The Mick batted .255 in the post season.... I still think the Mick would have won overall with 18 post season dingers (which is Insane!!!).
chaz
Wow, whoever started this thread has no idea how math wirks
Top 4? Ruth, Mays, Bonds, Mantle.
One thing I found interesting about Trout is he's played 8 full seasons, won 3 MVPs, came in 2nd 4 times and was 4th in the remaining season. That is pretty impressive.
Top 4? Ruth, Mays, Bonds (yeah, I know) and Schmidt.
Schmidt, you say? Well, I was 10 years old in 1974 and grew up in the Philadelphia area.
I will say, in Schmidt's defense, the years Schmidt played provided the least benefit from ballpark dimensions and expansion than the 15 years before and after.
Top 4 are Ruth, Mays, Aaron and Cobb. Would also put Bonds, Williams, Young, Gehrig, Rodriguez and Henderson above Mantle.
All GREAT points. I excluded him because the other guys did it a lot longer.
Mantle hands down the most gifted player ever. Injuries and a shorter career keeps him just out of the top 4 for me.
Their OPS numbers (not ops+) were nearly the same, but Stan the Man had 2800 more plate appearances and he missed an entire season in the military.
Musial also gets points (probably only from me) for being a wonderful person. Mick, not so much.
Wow...No Aaron? No Teddy Ballgame?....okay
chaz
With the exception of Williams, why would you put those others above Mantle? Young was not everyday player but that's okay.
chaz
Bonds has 762 career home runs and two batting titles. He should probably be in the top 4 if I were more objective. The only thing that kept him from 800 HR was being kept out of the league as the face of the steroid scandal.
Cy Young has 511 wins a record that will never be broken or even touched. Of those 76 were shutouts. He threw 7356 innings all with a WHIP of 1.13.
Gehrig is 2nd in consecutive games and held that record for a long time. He had 29 HR and an OPS of .930 his last year before being struck down by a disease named after him. Just missed 500 HR despite that. His average season per 162 games was .340, 37 HR and 149 RBIs. Mantle’s was .298, 36 and 102.
A-Rod has 3,115 hits and 696 HR. Beats Mantle in every counting stat and only batted 3 points less.
Henderson all time leader in SB while still getting over 3000 hits. Add in walks and you have a player who was on base over 5200 times. Still had almost 300 career home runs.
All are above Mantle in career WAR which incidentally Mantle is 16th.
Wow, big time numbers. You make some real good points... Gehrig and Henderson were real surprises. If Bonds & Arod didn't juice and if the Mick didn't drink (or didn't get that bad knee injury from that drain hole in center field) I wonder...what if...but all we have to go on is what it is....thanks for your input.
chaz
yea, there is gonna be a major trout crash in 2023
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
This is the point exactly!!! Im not a baseball expert by any means but I have been a student of football and its stats. When the conversation turns to the greatest of all time, what is pointed out is the number of championships. Take Dan Marino for instance, Numbers wise he was the greatest for quite a stretch of time, but he never won the "big" one. I know we are talking about the HOF here BUT, the " Greatest" usually have rings