Does it hurt the coin market...
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
....that Pogue prices realized aren’t on CoinFacts? Many record prices were set and they are not acknowledged there.
An example of how this leads to misinformation is the recent news release on Coin Week regarding the 1827 quarter currently in auction. It stated a record price for the issue that ignored the Pogue sale...hundreds of thousands of dollars too low.
2
Comments
It’s weird
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yes. Missing price information is never good for any market.
What is the agenda behind keeping them off Coinfacts?
Latin American Collection
It doesn’t help. Why?
Not so much weird as it is strange.
peacockcoins
Not true - the Pogue prices are there.
The CoinWeek article does have an error; perhaps they didn't know how to look things up correctly.
The PR-66+ CAM is shown as $705k (2015 Pogue sale) in both the Condition Census tables,
and as the AUCTION RECORD on the Cameo tab (but not on the PR tab where it shows $444k).
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1827-3-25c-original/5373 PR tab
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1827-3-25c-original-cam/85373 Cameo tab
So I think the 2 prices are a consequence of having 2 different PCGS Coin numbers for the non-Cameo and Cameo.
A potential buyer would see the correct price, I believe.
I don't see any missing prices from the Pogue sale.
Do you have other examples?
It doesn't hurt the market where I buy and sell at...
Yes. It also hurts when tons of photos are now hidden whereas they did not used to be. Lack of transparency/reality/facts/accurate pricing is all an issue. Hopefully some of these things can be rectified quickly and soon.
That said, that tends to be the very deep end of the swimming pool that I don't tend to play in but if things like that happen there it does make you wonder what might be happening in the shallow end of the data pool as well.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Generally, I would like to see more info on CoinFacts: prices, provenance, and photos.
I agree with @keyman64,
I'll never play in the pogue realm of coins, but no high end auction records makes me wonder. You can back out ebay sales figures on coin facts, great collections figures are not shown, and high end auction records arent shown, so then are all coins now just average, run of the mill?
With all that being said, it seems to me that would alter some pricing info and not just at the upper end of the spectrum.
Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone, Rob41281, clarkbar04, cactusjack55, Collectorcoins, sniocsu, coin finder
Trophy coin prices are subject to the whims of the very rich. Price guides for such coins should not allow for wild spikes in value that may have just reflected "irrational exuberance" on the part of the trophy hunters. The addition or subtraction of even one such bidder can cause wild swings in realizations.
CoinFacts shows prices per auction lot, including date and grade, so it's probably safe to include outliers.
What @keyman64 said.
Irrelevant to the universe of most collectors except to drool over photos.
The last time I sold at a Major Auction...I had 2 rare seated coins.
1 had 2 very comparable sales events in the past couple of years in the mid 5 figures. The only prices realized they showed was a similar sale in the early 2000's for around 4K.
The other had a sales event the previous year in the 5 figures, seems the only old sales event they showed from many years prior was around 2K.
I even complained when it went live with me just being brushed off. Well, I had to have a friend buy them back for me...cost me a couple grand in fees...but I still did much better in the long run.
The 1st coin I sold to a dealer...who had it conserved(really didn't improve at all) and was in an NGC conservation holder. 1 year later the coin sold at the same Mayor Auction House for almost 20K.
Ya think I will ever consign to them again?
I believe all prices should be included, however, when there are outliers (either high or low) a notation should be included, indicating those sales/numbers, for proper analysis. Cheers, RickO
No news is as bad as fake news.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
My opinion is that when it comes to what an individual is willing and able to pay for a piece of art it simply shouldn't matter what someone else has paid for the piece before.
The piece speaks for itself, no matter whether its a found-with-a-metal-detector common date Indian Head penny lost long ago by a kid on his or her way to the corner store to buy a piece of bubble gum or a coin such as the finest known 1894-S dime worth millions of dollars to the wealthiest of collectors among us.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Yet many coin dealers will tell you that “too much information” has hurt certain markets, and I would agree. Not a completely new situation. In fact, I remember a prominent dealer telling me more than 20 years ago that he tried to buy the CDN, just so he could take it out of business. He thought the easy availability of wholesale pricing hurt the business and the market. He had a point. At some point, dealer profit margins get squeezed so tight that it doesn’t make sense to maintain a big inventory or spend a lot of money on marketing.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Trophy coins realizing way over published MV (the wealthy) don’t represent the mainline coin market IMO except what some high buyer paid.
I look both at CF and the CDN tool looking in at auction data / photos to see why one piece realized more than another. I believe many if not all these high buyers are the end user. Usually my auction data research due to a poster thread here on some expensive $2000 coin or some coin that realized 2x bid or more.
I believe coin priced should be consistent as what one can expect to pay for a coin off the bourse. I don’t think price guides should be skewed by some coin that went multiples of PCGS MV, CDN bid or CW Trends / Krause CV. Certainly exceptional prices realized can be in online resources like Coin Facts. Lately my research has focused on CAC coins realizing 50 pct premiums or more and comparing those pieces to other coins to discern material reasons for huge premium (is it really an A coin).
You can usually get more for your money with world coins, but that doesn't automatically make them a better investment. It's all about supply and demand. That said, I'd rather build a great collection of world coins than a mediocre collection of US coins on the same budget. Even if I don't get rich doing it, it's more fun and more gratifying.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Let’s pretend for the moment that the retail price guide was instead intended to be a guide to the auction market, as it seems you would prefer. What would be the purpose of the guide? I mean, if they’re already giving us auction records and links to images, of what additional value is a single guide price?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
One could say that a market where collector to collector transactions take place (thus there are no middlemen/women) is the "purest" type of market whose transactions reflect the "true value" of coins.
The above of course assumes that collectors who buy and sell are possessed of the same level of knowledge and are not under any coercion, duress, etc. to buy or sell [reality is much different and many times one party to a transaction is in a better position than the other party].
Such a scenario ignores that middlemen/women do contribute real "value" to the market and to both collectors who buy and sell. These middlemen/women should be compensated for what they do.
Above retail, retail, wholesale, below wholesale, pawn shop and even widow/heir rips are transaction levels which take place daily, not only in our hobby but in all human interactions.
I think the more information available to the general public the better. What is done with that information is up to the individuals involved in transactions and how they conduct themselves.
No it does not help if no one can find any type of information to help them out any jmo
Well I now see why this is of concern to TDN.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
True, although it would seem the auction listings themselves could provide the missing data.
Here’s the 1796 quarter page. No Pogue sale listed:
The Pogue PCGS MS-66 is listed under
"Show Related Coins and Varieties"
and then under
"Browning-2",
along with the Newman NGC MS-67+:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1796-25c-browning-2/38920
It seems like another case of too many PCGS coin numbers.
Or more plainly, the 1796 quarter should have a single summary page with the price record across all the sub pages.
As with the 1827, both these prices are listed in the Condition Census at the bottom of each page;
just not in the table in the middle of the page.
Browning 2 as stated. And it stinks it works this way.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Oh it's a Browning "2"! My example is a Browning 1! (although it's in a Good details holder)
I don't think the guys who are buying coins at the top end of the spectrum are relying on CoinFacts for pricing.